Manchester City 17/18 discussion | "If you're here for the Champions clap your hands" (#6505)

roonster09 said:
Kompany is injured and not available for Liverpool game.
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Get him out the fantasy teams quick! I feel sorry for him, his body is just completely shot. Interesting point about Kompany - he never seems to have calf injuries in isolation, always seems to get them reoccurring as if he's not resting for long enough.

VINCENT KOMPANY INJURY HISTORY
Injury Club Date Injury Reported
Calf Injury 2017 July 31st
Muscle Injury 2017 February 16th
Fitness 2017 January 15th
Knee Ligaments 2016 November 19th
Hip And Illness 2016 November 19th
Groin Injury 2016 November 9th
Groin Strain 2016 September 21st
Thigh Muscle Strain 2016 May 4th
Calf Muscle Strain 2016 March 15th
Calf Muscle Strain 2015 December 26th
Calf Strain 2015 November 8th
Calf/Shin Injury 2015 September 26th
Calf/Shin Injury 2015 September 15th
Hip/Thigh Injury 2015 April 12th
Hamstring Injury 2015 April 6th
Calf Muscle Strain 2014 December 13th
Hamstring Injury 2014 November 30th
Calf/Shin Injury 2014 November 5th
Calf/Shin Injury 2014 September 2nd
Groin/Pelvis Injury 2014 June 23rd
Groin/Pelvis Injury 2014 June 17th
Knee Injury 2014 April 12th
Hamstring Injury 2014 February 18th
Thigh Muscle Strain 2013 October 5th
Groin/Pelvis Injury 2013 August 19th
Facial Injury 2013 June 7th
Calf/Shin Injury 2013 May 11th
Calf/Shin Injury2013 January 26th
Hamstring Injury 2012 December 9th
Knee Injury 2012 November 21st
Calf/Shin Injury 2012 October 3rd
Calf/Shin Injury 2012 July 27th
Hamstring Injury 2012 July 17th
Calf/Shin Injury 2012 June 1st
Calf Muscle Strain 2012 March 8th
Knee Injury 2012 January 31st
Hip/Thigh Injury 2011 February 25th
Groin Strain 2010 January 31st
Ankle/Foot Injury 2009 July 6th
Hamstring Injury 2009 April 4th
 
I always thought Pep would struggle. At Barca he had great players - and Messi. At Bayern winning the title is a given but they weren't good enough in Europe. Could I have achieved a lot of what he did with the players he inherited? Yeah, I reckon. "Go out and drop bombs lads" "Give it to Lionel". Reckon that would have done it.

I'm open to being proved wrong if he delivers at City but more than 12 months in the signs aren't hugely encouraging.
 
Danny Roberts said:
I always thought Pep would struggle. At Barca he had great players - and Messi. At Bayern winning the title is a given but they weren't good enough in Europe. Could I have achieved a lot of what he did with the players he inherited? Yeah, I reckon. "Go out and drop bombs lads" "Give it to Lionel". Reckon that would have done it.

I'm open to being proved wrong if he delivers at City but more than 12 months in the signs aren't hugely encouraging.
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You are describing Wenger, many of his former players say that they were taught the basics and told to 'express themselves' when it came to tactics.

Guardiola is obsessive over tactics, he has very strict instructions regarding where players should be in different phases of play. He is a good manager; but IMO overrated.
 
I think they've been extremely lucky so far.

10 men down to Everton and Everton decide not to go for the kill
About to draw with Bournemouth and they get a last minute goal
A freak accident causes Liverpool to go down to 10 men and Klopp doesn't bother to keep the scoreline respectable
 
horsechoker said:
I think they've been extremely lucky so far.

10 men down to Everton and Everton decide not to go for the kill
About to draw with Bournemouth and they get a last minute goal
A freak accident causes Liverpool to go down to 10
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Danny Roberts said:
I always thought Pep would struggle. At Barca he had great players - and Messi. At Bayern winning the title is a given but they weren't good enough in Europe. Could I have achieved a lot of what he did with the players he inherited? Yeah, I reckon. "Go out and drop bombs lads" "Give it to Lionel". Reckon that would have done it.

I'm open to being proved wrong if he delivers at City but more than 12 months in the signs aren't hugely encouraging.
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Argentina have been trying that for a decade.
 
Danny Roberts said:
I always thought Pep would struggle. At Barca he had great players - and Messi. At Bayern winning the title is a given but they weren't good enough in Europe. Could I have achieved a lot of what he did with the players he inherited? Yeah, I reckon. "Go out and drop bombs lads" "Give it to Lionel". Reckon that would have done it.

I'm open to being proved wrong if he delivers at City but more than 12 months in the signs aren't hugely encouraging.
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The signs aren't very different from ours really.

City look good as they should do given how much they've spent and the players they have. They still don't look a brilliant team to warrant us fearing or anything like that which is the good news. In fact none of Pep, Mourinho, Klopp etc. look like they've built teams that can produce the kind of football and results to dominate and run away with the league. Everyones a little bit short in some areas.

City's attacking options are great though. In Sane and Jesus they've got two nailed on future Superstars of the game

One bit of credit to pep is that the improvement in fullbacks is absolutely huge this season, and crucial.
 
horsechoker said:
I think they've been extremely lucky so far.

10 men down to Everton and Everton decide not to go for the kill
About to draw with Bournemouth and they get a last minute goal
A freak accident causes Liverpool to go down to 10 men and Klopp doesn't bother to keep the scoreline respectable
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Not really. Walker didn't deserve a red card vs Everton and Everton scored from their first and only chance in that game. Then City conceded a freak goal vs Bournemouth. Bournemouth won't score a goal like that for the next 10 years.

City don't look very impressive but the same holds for any team in the league so far.
 
Danny Roberts said:
I always thought Pep would struggle. At Barca he had great players - and Messi. At Bayern winning the title is a given but they weren't good enough in Europe. Could I have achieved a lot of what he did with the players he inherited? Yeah, I reckon. "Go out and drop bombs lads" "Give it to Lionel". Reckon that would have done it.
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You're an idiot.
 
They managed to pick up some great attacking talents over the past few years. De Bruyne, Sane, Jesus, Bernardo Silva all with immense talent and age on their hands. Within the short span of time, you feel like they already look good as a unit, comfortable with each other and suiting the style of play at the club.
 
amolbhatia50k said:
The signs aren't very different from ours really.

City look good as they should do given how much they've spent and the players they have. They still don't look a brilliant team to warrant us fearing or anything like that which is the good news. In fact none of Pep, Mourinho, Klopp etc. look like they've built teams that can produce the kind of football and results to dominate and run away with the league. Everyones a little bit short in some areas.

City's attacking options are great though. In Sane and Jesus they've got two nailed on future Superstars of the game

One bit of credit to pep is that the improvement in fullbacks is absolutely huge this season, and crucial.
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I won't fear city with any of their showing this season. However the only worrying thing is they are picking points and having played tougher opponents compared they are on same points as us. I do feel once the games comes thick and fast I think we will fare better than other teams and hopefully we don't drop too many points and take advantage of our competitors.
 
I have watched City three times this year. They were workmanlike against Everton even before the sending off, poor for the entire game against Bournemouth and shaky yesterday before the Mane sending off. That being said, I still think with the sheer number of quality players at their disposal and the fact none of the challengers are fantastically good sides I still think they will have enough to win it
 
poor central occupation, players still refusing to be brave and break the first lines with passing instead opting for van Gaal like circulation. They still lack true finishers. To reach the level of a Madrid or Barcelona, they needed a player with killer instinct in front of goal, perhaps Gabriel Jesus will be that player in the future because it is certainly not Kun Aguero. Had they signed Mbappe I would have immediatley favoured them as one of the top contenders for the European Cup. Add to the fact that they still lack no #6 because of Gundogan's injury, they only have one left side back in Mendy and they still seem to be so far off automatism, I would not even consider them outright favourites for the title.
 
totaalvoetbal said:
poor central occupation, players still refusing to be brave and break the first lines with passing instead opting for van Gaal like circulation. They still lack true finishers. To reach the level of a Madrid or Barcelona, they needed a player with killer instinct in front of goal, perhaps Gabriel Jesus will be that player in the future because it is certainly not Kun Aguero. Had they signed Mbappe I would have immediatley favoured them as one of the top contenders for the European Cup. Add to the fact that they still lack no #6 because of Gundogan's injury, they only have one left side back in Mendy and they still seem to be so far off automatism, I would not even consider them outright favourites for the title.
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The football's nothing like as insipid and unadventurous as what van Gaal had United playing. And while Mbappe would have been a welcome addition, it seems you're suggesting he has more of a 'killer instinct' than Aguero, which is simply untrue. Aguero is not the killer he was in his first few seasons, but there's still not many better strikers out there. 33 goals in 45 games last season, his highest scoring season for us.
 
totaalvoetbal said:
poor central occupation, players still refusing to be brave and break the first lines with passing instead opting for van Gaal like circulation. They still lack true finishers. To reach the level of a Madrid or Barcelona, they needed a player with killer instinct in front of goal, perhaps Gabriel Jesus will be that player in the future because it is certainly not Kun Aguero. Had they signed Mbappe I would have immediatley favoured them as one of the top contenders for the European Cup. Add to the fact that they still lack no #6 because of Gundogan's injury, they only have one left side back in Mendy and they still seem to be so far off automatism, I would not even consider them outright favourites for the title.
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Mbappe is not as good as Aguero. Maybe one day he will be but that remains to be seen.

Also what's keeping them from dominating the league and competing for the CL is everything but their strikers.
 
BobbyManc said:
The football's nothing like as insipid and unadventurous as what van Gaal had United playing. And while Mbappe would have been a welcome addition, it seems you're suggesting he has more of a 'killer instinct' than Aguero, which is simply untrue. Aguero is not the killer he was in his first few seasons, but there's still not many better strikers out there. 33 goals in 45 games last season, his highest scoring season for us.
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No, it is not quite as dire but there are moments where the vertical pass is on but the player bringing th ball back reverts to circulating the ball in a U shape and slows down a potential attack. as I said in a previous thread, I don't expect to see this team be exceptional till Pep's 3rd season. that seems to be how long it takes to grasp his concepts and perform actions automatically.

Yes, that is the least that should be expected considring your team created the highest goal scoring chances last season and he was missing chance after chance per game. A Ronaldo or Messi with that service would have had 50+ goals.
 
amolbhatia50k said:
Mbappe is not as good as Aguero. Maybe one day he will be but that remains to be seen.

Also what's keeping them from dominating the league and competing for the CL is everything but their strikers.
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In terms of effeciency he is and he was when the two team met head to head last year. Mbappe is faster, makes better decisions and has so far been more clinical than Aguero. People thinking of the names rather than performances. In Pep's current system I would swap Aguero for Mbappe in a heart beat.
 
totaalvoetbal said:
No, it is not quite as dire but there are moments where the vertical pass is on but the player bringing th ball back reverts to circulating the ball in a U shape and slows down a potential attack.
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That's because City's midfielders, while good, are a level or two bellow of a Xavi or of a Iniesta. Pep can't improve that. Not in 1 season, or in 2, or in 3. What Messi, Xavi or Iniesta considered a manageable pass, other players find it's too risky to try. City can't play a full risk passing game, while also mantaining control. If they add more risk, and force better quaility passing, the game can get away from them and it can result in the opponent having more chances to score. Which is why they recycle possession a lot in situation where a master passer would pull the trigger. It basically ends in longer sequences of (sort of) stale possession than what Barca used to do. Not nearly as stale as with Van Gaal's United, where players were even less capable of making even moderately-risky passes.

Pep's philosophy gives you the opening, but it's down to the players' quality to pull the trigger once the window opens, because in less than 2 seconds the window will be closed by any good defensive team. Not sure City have the required quality to put teams in their corner playing like this, and not sure Pep will ever win big at City with this style.
 
serghei said:
That's because City's midfielders, while good, are a level or two bellow of a Xavi or of a Iniesta. Pep can't improve that. Not in 1 season, or in 2, or in 3. What Messi, Xavi or Iniesta considered a manageable pass, other players find it's too risky to try. City can't play a full risk passing game, while also mantaining control. If they add more risk, and force better quaility passing, the game can get away from them and it can result in the opponent having more chances to score. Which is why they recycle possession a lot in situation where a master passer would pull the trigger. It basically ends in longer sequences of stale possession than what Barca used to do.
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If Sarri can get a midfield of Hamsik, Diawara/Jorghino and Zielinski to do it I do not see why Pep cannot get his team to do it. Sarri's team is the best team in Europe in the first 2/3rds of the pitch. Either Napoli have Xavi, Iniesta and Busquets talent (they don't), City have worse players (probably) or Sarri is a better positional coach (possibly).

There are moments where they can play the first pass to a player unmarked and the player can play in a 3rd man. It has nothing to do with Xavi and Iniesta. I agree thquality is simply not there as I don't think De Bruyne should be operating that deep. All this is affected by the general central occupation as City general try and use the flnaks a lot more and tend to combine more in the channels.
 
There defence was laughable at times yesterday before Mane was sent off.

Mendy and Otamendi didn't have a clue who was meant to mark Salah.
 
totaalvoetbal said:
If Sarri can get a midfield of Hamsik, Diawara/Jorghino and Zielinski to do it I do not see why Pep cannot get his team to do it. Sarri's team is the best team in Europe in the first 2/3rds of the pitch.

There are moments where they can play the first pass to a player unmarked and the player can play in a 3rd man. It has nothing to do with Xavi and Iniesta. I agree thquality is simply not there as I don't think De Bruyne should be operating that deep. All this is affected by the general central occupation as City general try and use the flnaks a lot more and tend to combine more in the channels.
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Sarri's team has the style, but not the results. City is after both at the same time. This is increasingly hard to do, as the system is unforgiving and it is very demanding. The art of it is to find the perfect balance between risk and control. Barca lost the balance between risk and control as soon as Xavi was gone, because no other player in the team has the game IQ to understand when the possession needs to be recycled and when the riskier through pass can and must be made. Nobody else can do that at Barcelona, and City has no player like that either. They don't even have a Busquets, let alone a Xavi.
 
serghei said:
Sarri's team has the style, but not the results. City is after both at the same time. This is increasingly hard to do, as the system is unforgiving and it is very demanding. The art of it is to find the perfect balance between risk and control. Barca lost the balance between risk and control as soon as Xavi was gone, because no other player in the team has the game IQ to understand when the possession needs to be recycled and when the riskier through pass can and must be made. Nobody else can do that at Barcelona, and City has no player like that either. They don't even have a Busquets, let alone a Xavi.
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Nothing to do with style, no team in Europe has a better build up than Sarri''s Napoli that cmprosies of a midfield of Hamsik, Diawara/Jorginho and Zielnski. They consistently pass vertically between the lines, centrally and have far superiror central occupation. I am not talking about results. We are here talking about the build up and passing between the lines. Sarri's team does not get the results because they create a lot of chances but they too lack that quality to take them to the next level. They pass between the lines comfortably, they pick up passing qs from their teammates, they know when they are being pressed etc This is from good coaching. Napoli's build up is the closest thing we have had to Pep Guardiola's Barcelona since he left, I would argue even more so than his Bayern Munchen side.

I already said City don't have the players to do it and Fernandinho is not great between the lines. Simple observation. You do not need a Xavi and Iniesta to do it as Sarri's Napoli has already shown. Napoli have problems in the last 1/3rd of the pitch not the 2/3rds which is the area I'm talking about.
 
I think De Bruyne playing a deeper role is a knock on effect to what you're saying about Fernandinhos weakness, he's playing with much more freedom in the middle to play those balls through the middle into Silva and then join forwards when needed. I think De Bruyne is the best player in the league at the moment personally, though he'll never get the front man headlines, he's consistently the best player on the pitch for City at the moment, much like Silva in 11/12.
 
Manchester Dan said:
I think De Bruyne playing a deeper role is a knock on effect to what you're saying about Fernandinhos weakness, he's playing with much more freedom in the middle to play those balls through the middle into Silva and then join forwards when needed. I think De Bruyne is the best player in the league at the moment personally, though he'll never get the front man headlines, he's consistently the best player on the pitch for City at the moment, much like Silva in 11/12.
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It's a combination of many things. de Bruyne is great when he turns and he has players in front of him making runs into space but he isn't a particularly associative player and operates best in the channels so he always tends to drift wide anyway, but I think that even when the vertical pass to break the line is on, City rarely use it. Fernandinho is a culprit even when he has the time to pick out the best option in the best area.
 
I am not impressed by them yet and I think the lack of a proper CM next to Fernandinho will bite them back later in the season. Should have gone for players like William Carvalho, Adrien Silva, Wilfred Ndidi, Seri rather than Bernardo Silva IMO.
 
totaalvoetbal said:
Nothing to do with style, no team in Europe has a better build up than Sarri''s Napoli that cmprosies of a midfield of Hamsik, Diawara/Jorginho and Zielnski. They consistently pass vertically between the lines, centrally and have far superiror central occupation. I am not talking about results. We are here talking about the build up and passing between the lines. Sarri's team does not get the results because they create a lot of chances but they too lack that quality to take them to the next level. They pass between the lines comfortably, they pick up passing qs from their teammates, they know when they are being pressed etc This is from good coaching. Napoli's build up is the closest thing we have had to Pep Guardiola's Barcelona since he left, I would argue even more so than his Bayern Munchen side.

I already said City don't have the players to do it and Fernandinho is not great between the lines. Simple observation. You do not need a Xavi and Iniesta to do it as Sarri's Napoli has already shown. Napoli have problems in the last 1/3rd of the pitch not the 2/3rds which is the area I'm talking about.
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You don't need Iniesta to do it, but you need him to do it well. The system alone doesn't cut it. You also need to have the right actors, to put it into practice just as you envision it before the game. The system doesn't create the players, it just showcases their abilities if they are already there. Instead, the system can very well be limited by what the players can't do. In the absence of world class players all over the pitch juego de posicion will look like an ersatz, an imitation of the real thing that is of weaker quality.

Napoli has problems in every area when they face a top team. You say they create a lot of chances, but in the match versus Madrid on Bernabeu the chances created stat read 20-8 for Madrid for example. So, you can see the limitation here. The system doesn't elevate the players. A single player that is missing can make or break how well the system functions.
 
Peanut Butter said:
Seriously though, City are a joy to watch when attacking they make it look so easy.

Defending however, they're still all over the place.
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Otamendi was struggling against Salah up until Mane's red. I'm not sure where Mendy was whilst Otamendi was getting roasted.

I still think they have some balancing issues but as of right now I'd put City and United as joint favourites for the title.
 
Klopper76 said:
Otamendi was struggling against Salah up until Mane's red. I'm not sure where Mendy was whilst Otamendi was getting roasted.

I still think they have some balancing issues but as of right now I'd put City and United as joint favourites for the title.
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Far too early to tell really. I fancy Chelsea again personally.

Spurs look good too.
 
Peanut Butter said:
Far too early to tell really. I fancy Chelsea again personally.

Spurs look good too.
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It's hard to back Spurs at Wembley. I'm not sure on Chelsea. I think the two Manchester clubs look better prepared to deal with four fronts than Chelsea do.

City's squad looks pretty strong compared to the rest.
 
Bwuk said:
There defence was laughable at times yesterday before Mane was sent off.

Mendy and Otamendi didn't have a clue who was meant to mark Salah.
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Otemendi in particular was shocking early on. He'd probably have won the game for Liverpool had there been no sending off. He was that bad.
 
Klopper76 said:
It's hard to back Spurs at Wembley. I'm not sure on Chelsea. I think the two Manchester clubs look better prepared to deal with four fronts than Chelsea do.

City's squad looks pretty strong compared to the rest.
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Chelsea have been very impressive after their first game considering hazard hasn't been available and Morata is new to English football. Their cohesion and build up play looks good to me. You can see why they're champions. Their squad depth could be an issue, but not completely sure about that.
 
serghei said:
You don't need Iniesta to do it, but you need him to do it well. The system alone doesn't cut it. You also need to have the right actors, to put it into practice just as you envision it before the game. The system doesn't create the players, it just showcases their abilities if they are already there. Instead, the system can very well be limited by what the players can't do. In the absence of world class players all over the pitch juego de posicion will look like an ersatz, an imitation of the real thing that is of weaker quality.

Napoli has problems in every area when they face a top team. You say they create a lot of chances, but in the match versus Madrid on Bernabeu the chances created stat read 20-8 for Madrid for example. So, you can see the limitation here. The system doesn't elevate the players. A single player that is missing can make or break how well the system functions.
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No you do not need an Iniesta to do it well. I have watched Johan's Ajax in the 1980s, Johan's Barcelona in the 90s, Louis van Gaal's Ajax in the late 90s. None of them had an Iniesta. This is going off tangent. My arguement here is you do not need a Xavi or an Iniesta to use positional play well.

That's like saying you need Cristiano Ronaldo to play counter attacking well. Using Napoli's game vs Real Madrid as an example of the failure of their team doesn't make sense as Madrid are the best team in the world and have a higher talent edge. Napoli's build up was still good and optimal vs Madrid it is when they reached the final 1/3rd of the pitch they encountered problems, an area that I never brought up which is why I am confused you keep bringing it up.

Again, in the 1st 2/3rd of the pitch, Napoli have the best build up.

I'm not sure where you are going off on the tangent now talking about systems. So I suppose Juventus system against Madrid was awful as well, considering they got humiliated even though they were the 2nd best team in Europe last year?

I already said Napoli are missing players in the final 3rd of the pitch, again this has nothing to do with my original comment and this was about the build up...
 
The 3-1-4-2 works for them with Jesus and Aguero. Otamendi at LCB is a potential weakness but other than that, it looks suited to play possession football in the PL without fear of counter-attack.

Surprisingly, Pep also has a plan B with wingers like Sane, Sterling and B. Silva, which seems to be working in away fixtures. Will be interesting to see which system he uses against United.
 
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