Marouane Fellaini | 2013/14 Performances

[Cina]

My point was Cina said his argument with Fellaini was that he can't work out if he will be a Carrick or Young at United yet.

Is that any surprise when he's not played for the club yet?

Based on what I've seen from him at Everton.

Sometimes you see a player at their previous club and are very confident they'll be a success. I don't know whether that's the case with Fellaini.

Weird shit going on in here, and again, who the feck is "worried"?

 

[Sir A1ex]

Counter arguments are fine. You didn't make a counter argument. You were basically asking him to not express his opinion which is silly.

No I wasn't, show me where I've done that.

You've got a serious problem with understanding the difference between these things (and, it would appear, a very under-developed concept of hypocrisy).

 

[Sam]

Fellaini's gonna be brilliant for us, and make a lot of people look very very silly.

How is the myth that he's only a big lump with no technical ability still getting repeated?

 

[TheReligion]

Based on what I've seen from him at Everton.

Sometimes you see a player at their previous club and are very confident they'll be a success. I don't know whether that's the case with Fellaini.

Weird shit going on in here, and again, who the feck is "worried"?

Why the comparison with Carrick then? He wasn't an obvious success ready to happen

 

[moses]

Why the comparison with Carrick then? He wasn't an obvious success ready to happen

He was to me.

 

[Cina]

Why the comparison with Carrick then? He wasn't an obvious success ready to happen

Uh that wasn't in reference to Carrick.

 

[finneh]

Nobody's disputing that we overpaid, but I still maintain that he was never being targeted as a squad player.

A squad player is someone like Ashley Young (the theory behind buying him, not the actual product we got) - somebody who is does what somebody else in the first team already does, a little less well, and can fill in when required and with a bit of luck see if they can raise their game.

Fellaini fills such an obvious gap in the team that he'd obviously be playing more often than not, and in a lot of big games.

People talking about him as back-up for Carrick or a slightly better Cleverley must be blind, he's absolutely nothing like either of those players.

It's difficult to say because everyone here is talking as though he was always going to sign for us this Summer and was obviously a priority for Moyes. If that was the case we'd have paid his release clause on July 1st and he'd have had a pre-season and probably featured in our first three games.

Therefore it is safe to assume that Moyes wanted a higher caliber or different type of player and when he failed to bring said player in went for the fallback option in Fellaini. This isn't necessarily a bad thing (apart from wasting the £4m) and happens quite often, for instance Chelsea had to go for their fallback option in Eto'o, as did Spurs after losing out on Willian. However it does mean that Fellaini might not be more than a squad player, particularly if Moyes still has his eye on his first choice(s).

I certainly don't see our starting XI with Fellaini as much stronger than without him. The fact is you can only play with 11 players and even though Fellaini is different to Carrick/Cleverley, he isn't much better - just different. I agree with this opinion:

As for whether he was intended as a squad man or not, originally - well, I'm not sure. But I find it reasonable to assume that if we had landed Fabregas, and Moyes plans on a 4-2-3-1, it would have been Carrick and Fabregas as the two in our best XI. Carrick is seven years older than Fellaini, though. So, in time Moyes probably would've seen the latter emerging as a first choice.

Fabregas was our number one target and out of the potential: Fabregas, Fellaini, Carrick, Rooney, RVP, 2 wingers - I can't imagine Fellaini would have displaced any of the others. Therefore it follows that if Moyes returns for one of his top targets it would be Fellaini who becomes the squad/back up player.

 

[TheReligion]

Uh that wasn't in reference to Carrick.

Eh. You said you can't work out if he's going to be a Carrick or a Young?

 

[Cina]

I find it funny that the people berating those who think he won't make it or are simply unsure as to whether he will/won't are doing the exact same thing only the other way round, i.e. making a judgement that he'll definitely be a success here despite him not playing any games.

I guess it's easier to mask stupidity when it's put across in a positive manner.

 

[TheReligion]

He was to me.

Exactly.

 

[Cina]

Eh. You said you can't work out if he's going to be a Carrick or a Young?

Yeah, as in, I wasn't sure when we signed Carrick (same as Fellaini) whether he'd be a success here, and he was. I never said he was an obvious success, you brought that into it.

 

[Sunny Jim]

I find it funny that the people berating those who think he won't make it or are simply unsure as to whether he will/won't are doing the exact same thing only the other way round, i.e. making a judgement that he'll definitely be a success here despite him not playing any games.

I guess it's easier to mask stupidity when it's put across in a positive manner.

fantastic post.

 

[TheReligion]

I find it funny that the people berating those who think he won't make it or are simply unsure as to whether he will/won't are doing the exact same thing only the other way round, i.e. making a judgement that he'll definitely be a success here despite him not playing any games.

I guess it's easier to mask stupidity when it's put across in a positive manner.

I think some would sooner wait to see what we have in mind for him before either berating his capabilities or raving about how he will do here.

Some have been moaning about his creativity when even Stevie Wonder could see that's not why he's been brought here. It's baffling.

 

[Sunny Jim]

Personally i see him as a back up for Carrick.


Thanks, that's all.

 

[Cina]

I think some would sooner wait to see what we have in mind for him before either berating his capabilities.

Some have been moaning about his creativity when even Stevie Wonder could see that's not why he's been brought here. It's baffling.

Not my point, some are already saying he's a guaranteed success here. What's the difference between saying that and saying he's a guaranteed failure? None, only one is positive and one is negative so naturally the negative is easier to spot.

Neither are valid because he hasn't played for us yet.

 

[Alock1]

I understand what is being meant by 'will Fellaini be a Carrick or a Young' in terms of being able to step-up and be United standard - but there are a number of things to consider.

Being a winger, Ashley Young is expected to put up numbers, he's expected to be exciting, to show some flair, to beat a man - he's an attacker and he needs to show it. Manchester United wingers aren't about being mediocre and simply 'doing a job' - they're there to penetrate, to create and to score; to excite.

As a central-midfielder though, United have had plenty of players who have been incredibly important to us without being particularly exciting with their passing - Keane, Robson, Fletcher, even Carrick when he was partnering Scholes. Of course, Keane and Robson were 'world-class' and were very good on the ball, but I'm not sure they'd get into any teams on passing alone - and that's fine..
Fletcher most certainly wasn't, yet was considered an incredibly important player in one of the best teams United has ever had - he could get away with 'doing a job' and not being the most exciting, because we had other players capable.

Fellaini can do everything that Fletcher can, and some things better. He has got a bit of flair to him, can carry the ball power, and will score goals - the only part of his game which is lacking is his creative passing from deep - but since he can link-up play well, run with the ball, and hold up play - there's no issue for me here. As long as we have players like Carrick, Rooney, Kagawa, Nani in the team (fit and in form, which has lacked lately admittedly) then it shouldn't matter that he can't pull out wonder balls.

He'll never be considered world-class (or even 'top-class'), but that doesn't mean he can't become one of our most important players. He'll definitely do a job for us defensively, but I'm confident he can use some of his other qualities in our attack - qualities that we've been lacking.
A world-class team doesn't need 11 world class players, we've seen this time and time again.

 

[TheReligion]

Not my point, some are already saying he's a guaranteed success here. What's the difference between saying that and saying he's a guaranteed failure? None, only one is positive and one is negative so naturally the negative is easier to spot.

Neither are valid because he hasn't played for us yet.

I think the difference is he is an improvement to the squad. That's not even up for debate. We have retained all of our players and added to an area of weakness a player who is established in the premier league and internationally. Our squad is stronger with him than without him.

That's why I can't understand the blanket negativity.

 

[Cina]

I think the difference is he is an improvement to the squad. That's not even up for debate. We have retained all of our players and added to an area of weakness a player who is established in the premier league and internationally. Our squad is stronger with him than without him.

That's why I can't understand the blanket negativity.

There's no difference between those statements though, surely you see that? Both are assumptions based on nothing.

Mine was basically entirely neutral yet people have come to the conclusion that I'm saying he's crap.

 

[TheReligion]

There's no difference between those statements though, surely you see that? Both are assumptions based on nothing.

Mine was basically entirely neutral yet people have come to the conclusion that I'm saying he's crap.

It's not an assumption that our midfield options are better with him than without him, no.

 

[Treble]

I understand what is being meant by 'will Fellaini be a Carrick or a Young' in terms of being able to step-up and be United standard - but there are a number of things to consider.

Being a winger, Ashley Young is expected to put up numbers, he's expected to be exciting, to show some flair, to beat a man - he's an attacker and he needs to show it. Manchester United wingers aren't about being mediocre and simply 'doing a job' - they're there to penetrate, to create and to score; to excite.

As a central-midfielder though, United have had plenty of players who have been incredibly important to us without being particularly exciting with their passing - Keane, Robson, Fletcher, even Carrick when he was partnering Scholes. Of course, Keane and Robson were 'world-class' and were very good on the ball, but I'm not sure they'd get into any teams on passing alone - and that's fine..
Fletcher most certainly wasn't, yet was considered an incredibly important player in one of the best teams United has ever had - he could get away with 'doing a job' and not being the most exciting, because we had other players capable.

Fellaini can do everything that Fletcher can, and some things better. He has got a bit of flair to him, can carry the ball power, and will score goals - the only part of his game which is lacking is his creative passing from deep - but since he can link-up play well, run with the ball, and hold up play - there's no issue for me here. As long as we have players like Carrick, Rooney, Kagawa, Nani in the team (fit and in form, which has lacked lately admittedly) then it shouldn't matter that he can't pull out wonder balls.

He'll never be considered world-class (or even 'top-class'), but that doesn't mean he can't become one of our most important players. He'll definitely do a job for us defensively, but I'm confident he can use some of his other qualities in our attack - qualities that we've been lacking.
A world-class team doesn't need 11 world class players, we've seen this time and time again.

I think he is less mobile than Fletcher and that's not a minor issue. The combo of Carrick and Fellaini would lack enough dynamism.

 

[Cina]

It's not an assumption that our midfield options are better with him than without him, no.

That clearly was not the argument here.

 

[Sir A1ex]

I find it funny that the people berating those who think he won't make it or are simply unsure as to whether he will/won't are doing the exact same thing only the other way round, i.e. making a judgement that he'll definitely be a success here despite him not playing any games.

I guess it's easier to mask stupidity when it's put across in a positive manner.

I think it's funny when people constantly snipe at and make points against those who say he'll succeed, then keep falling back behind the cover of a neutral facade.

I guess it's easier to mask a lack of conviction when you being a bit sly and disingenuous.

 

[Sunny Jim]

I understand what is being meant by 'will Fellaini be a Carrick or a Young' in terms of being able to step-up and be United standard - but there are a number of things to consider.

Being a winger, Ashley Young is expected to put up numbers, he's expected to be exciting, to show some flair, to beat a man - he's an attacker and he needs to show it. Manchester United wingers aren't about being mediocre and simply 'doing a job' - they're there to penetrate, to create and to score; to excite.

As a central-midfielder though, United have had plenty of players who have been incredibly important to us without being particularly exciting with their passing - Keane, Robson, Fletcher, even Carrick when he was partnering Scholes. Of course, Keane and Robson were 'world-class' and were very good on the ball, but I'm not sure they'd get into any teams on passing alone - and that's fine..
Fletcher most certainly wasn't, yet was considered an incredibly important player in one of the best teams United has ever had - he could get away with 'doing a job' and not being the most exciting, because we had other players capable.

Fellaini can do everything that Fletcher can, and some things better. He has got a bit of flair to him, can carry the ball power, and will score goals - the only part of his game which is lacking is his creative passing from deep - but since he can link-up play well, run with the ball, and hold up play - there's no issue for me here. As long as we have players like Carrick, Rooney, Kagawa, Nani in the team (fit and in form, which has lacked lately admittedly) then it shouldn't matter that he can't pull out wonder balls.

He'll never be considered world-class (or even 'top-class'), but that doesn't mean he can't become one of our most important players. He'll definitely do a job for us defensively, but I'm confident he can use some of his other qualities in our attack - qualities that we've been lacking.
A world-class team doesn't need 11 world class players, we've seen this time and time again.

seriously....

 

[ciderman9000000]

I think we've established that we're in disagreement on basically every part of his game.

For me, he's a slightly better option than Cleverley at the moment, but he doesn't solve our problems in CM - not in any sort of way.

I guess we'll see how he does.

Yes, but whereas I've given reasons as to why your assessment is flawed and misinformed, all you've said is that 'He won't do this, he won't do that'. You haven't explained why he isn't able to do the things you describe.

Your interpretation of Fellaini's midfield role is evidently rather flawed and until you at least attempt to address the counterpoints I've given below then you'll not begin to transcend your obvious ignorance on the matter.

He won't help us pass our way out of defence, which we're largely in agreement that we're not very good at.
He certainly will. Fellaini offers a great target for defenders to give the ball to and excels in taking control under pressure and bringing the players around him into play.

He won't give us added control in CM when pressurized high up the pitch, which we struggle with.
Again, Felliani excels on the ball under pressure.

He won't give us any dynamism in a midfield two, and won't help us connect our central midfielders to the rest of the side.
I'm not sure you really understand the role of players such as Fellaini. His reliability of control and strength under pressure means he can basically act as a target man in the middle of the pitch. This allows all the players around him to get forwards quicker and with more confidence as Fellaini holds the ball and looks for the lay-off.

He won't help us play through the middle of teams due to his incisive or creative passing.
No, he'll help us play through the middle of teams due to his strength and holding ability.

He isn't particularly aware defensively, and we've got Carrick anyway for that, so he won't really make us that much more solid. Sure, he'll clatter into people and throw some elbows, but in terms of us looking more cohesive as a defensive unit - no.
In the defensive phase he meanders around our own half making himself a right nuisance around the ball. He's a big unit and he uses that physicality to make sure that the opposition is always aware of his presence, often blocking the way to the simple pass and forcing higher levels of creativity from the opposing forwards. He lacks pace and can be played around, but in so doing he forces the opposition into channels whereby our other defenders can deal with the threat. Defensively he's a huge boon.

What he does is he gives us an option when Carrick doesn't play, which is obviously dearly needed, and he does give us an option as a goalscorer from midfield.
You clearly don't know this player very well.

 

[Sir A1ex]

It's difficult to say because everyone here is talking as though he was always going to sign for us this Summer and was obviously a priority for Moyes. If that was the case we'd have paid his release clause on July 1st and he'd have had a pre-season and probably featured in our first three games.

I still do think we were always going to sign him. The timing and price were just a horrific mis-judgment of the situation... still can't get my head round the specifics, but I'm guessing something to do with trying to get Baines, and massively under-estimating Kenwright's resolve.

 

[moses]

Not my point, some are already saying he's a guaranteed success here. What's the difference between saying that and saying he's a guaranteed failure? None, only one is positive and one is negative so naturally the negative is easier to spot.

Neither are valid because he hasn't played for us yet.

Well the difference is that he has been the best player at a mid table side side in our division for 5 or so years and a manager who has worked with him has chosen to spend 27m on him, that would hint towards him being good enough. I've seen him bully the much vaunted Cleverley and overrun our whole midfield on more than one occassion, so in my opinion, the odds are slightly in favour of him being good.

 

[Sir A1ex]

Fabregas was our number one target and out of the potential: Fabregas, Fellaini, Carrick, Rooney, RVP, 2 wingers - I can't imagine Fellaini would have displaced any of the others. Therefore it follows that if Moyes returns for one of his top targets it would be Fellaini who becomes the squad/back up player.

Was he, realistically, though? Or just a pipe-dream put out there for bizarre and badly judged motives?

If we were serious about signing him, we must have known the sort of amount we'd be looking at and we never came close. I suspect that Fellaini was always coming and we thought we'd be able to get Herrera too.

 

[Cina]

I think it's funny when people constantly snipe at and make points against those who say he'll succeed, then keep falling back behind the cover of a neutral facade.

I guess it's easier to mask a lack of conviction when you being a bit sly and disingenuous.

So it's wrong to reserve judgement until he's played for us?

Well the difference is that he has been the best player at a mid table side side in our division for 5 or so years and a manager who has worked with him has chosen to spend 27m on him, that would hint towards him being good enough. I've seen him bully the much vaunted Cleverley and overrun our whole midfield on more than one occassion, so in my opinion, the odds are slightly in favour of him being good.

perhaps, doesn't mean he's a guaranteed success though, does it?

Someone says "I don't think he'll make it", the response is generally "for feck sake wait til he plays a game before judging him"
Some says "he'll definitely make it", the response is "yeah too fecking right!"

Slight difference.

 

[Sir A1ex]

fantastic post.

No it's not, it's a sneaky coward's post. I'm happy to debate with people who think he won't be a success, and I'm happy to accept the opinion of people who say they are 50-50, but Cina is just getting to the point of wumming in this thread. He constantly comes up with posts like that then retreats into "hey, I never said anything". It's a waste of space at best.

 

[Cina]

No it's not, it's a sneaky coward's post. I'm happy to debate with people who think he won't be a success, and I'm happy to accept the opinion of people who say they are 50-50, but Cina is just getting to the point of wumming in this thread. He constantly comes up with posts like that then retreats into "hey, I never said anything". It's a waste of space at best.

Are you illiterate?

 

[Sir A1ex]

So it's wrong to reserve judgement until he's played for us?

No, but we may as well lock this thread then.

Someone says "I don't think he'll make it", the response is generally "for feck sake wait til he plays a game before judging him"
Some says "he'll definitely make it", the response is "yeah too fecking right!"
Slight difference.

And you can't see why that is acceptable?

More than acceptable in fact, it's exactly how we should be about a new player. It's unbelievably clear that only the worst type of spoiled fan would write off a new signing before he'd played for us. But you're here to criticise us for being excited and optimistic about a new signing? Sorry, but feck that.

 

[Sir A1ex]

Are you illiterate?

Good one - your arguments get more compelling by the post.

 

[Alock1]

seriously....

Did you continue to read?

'Of course, Keane and Robson were 'world-class' and were very good on the ball, but I'm not sure they'd get into any teams on passing alone - and that's fine..'

I know that Fellaini isn't on their level (or even close) and said in the post he'd never be considered world class or even top class. My point was that these days people think that for a player to be worthy of a midfield spot in a world-class team, they have to have exceptional passing ability and it just isn't true. It hasn't been over the years for us, and it isn't in modern day football either.

 

[moses]

So it's wrong to reserve judgement until he's played for us?


perhaps, doesn't mean he's a guaranteed success though, does it?

Someone says "I don't think he'll make it", the response is generally "for feck sake wait til he plays a game before judging him"
Some says "he'll definitely make it", the response is "yeah too fecking right!"

Slight difference.

You all have way to much time on your hands, and that is from a man who is on his 3rd spliff of the day.

 

[Sir A1ex]

Mine was basically entirely neutral yet people have come to the conclusion that I'm saying he's crap.

You don't think that could be anything to do with the fact that you only, totally, 100% argue against people who are optimistic about his chances? This honestly doesn't occur to you and your incredibly impartial mind?

 

[TheReligion]

Anyone who sees Fellaini as an alternative Carrick knows beggar all

 

[Ainu]

seriously....

What is actually wrong with what he said there? It doesn't seem a particularly controversial statement to me.

 

[Cina]

No, but we may as well lock this thread then.



And you can't see why that is acceptable?

More than acceptable in fact, it's exactly how we should be about a new player. It's unbelievably clear that only the worst type of spoiled fan would write off a new signing before he'd played for us. But you're here to criticise us for being excited and optimistic about a new signing? Sorry, but feck that.

Mother of fecking God, I can't fathom how you are possibly coming to that conclusion, I said that it's just as bad of people to say he'll definitely make it (NOT be excited/optimistic) as it is to say he won't. The reason I ask if you're illiterate is because you keep putting words into my mouth. Read my original post, I haven't detracted from it in any way yet apparently I'm a "sneaky coward" because I'm retracting on things that I never said in the first place. Right.

You all have way to much time on your hands, and that is from a man who is on his 3rd spliff of the day.

I ran a 5k last night, got drunk and am in no mood to actually do work.

 

[simonhch]

Dont expect better from me. We actually spend 27m on a taller version of Quinton Fortune

Found it.

 

[marjen]

Yes, but whereas I've given reasons as to why your assessment is flawed and misinformed, all you've said is that 'He won't do this, he won't do that'. You haven't explained why he isn't able to do the things you describe.

Your interpretation of Fellaini's midfield role is evidently rather flawed and until you at least attempt to address the counterpoints I've given below then you'll not begin to transcend your obvious ignorance on the matter.

He won't help us pass our way out of defence, which we're largely in agreement that we're not very good at.
He certainly will. Fellaini offers a great target for defenders to give the ball to and excels in taking control under pressure and bringing the players around him into play.

He won't give us added control in CM when pressurized high up the pitch, which we struggle with.
Again, Felliani excels on the ball under pressure.

He won't give us any dynamism in a midfield two, and won't help us connect our central midfielders to the rest of the side.
I'm not sure you really understand the role of players such as Fellaini. His reliability of control and strength under pressure means he can basically act as a target man in the middle of the pitch. This allows all the players around him to get forwards quicker and with more confidence as Fellaini holds the ball and looks for the lay-off.

He won't help us play through the middle of teams due to his incisive or creative passing.
No, he'll help us play through the middle of teams due to his strength and holding ability.

He isn't particularly aware defensively, and we've got Carrick anyway for that, so he won't really make us that much more solid. Sure, he'll clatter into people and throw some elbows, but in terms of us looking more cohesive as a defensive unit - no.
In the defensive phase he meanders around our own half making himself a right nuisance around the ball. He's a big unit and he uses that physicality to make sure that the opposition is always aware of his presence, often blocking the way to the simple pass and forcing higher levels of creativity from the opposing forwards. He lacks pace and can be played around, but in so doing he forces the opposition into channels whereby our other defenders can deal with the threat. Defensively he's a huge boon.

What he does is he gives us an option when Carrick doesn't play, which is obviously dearly needed, and he does give us an option as a goalscorer from midfield.
You clearly don't know this player very well.

Okay, in short:

His close control is not good, as is evident even in the 8 minute bragging video that floats around of him on youtube, let alone if you watch him in a match. More importantly, if you've watched him play as a DM or a CM you'll notice he's a slow, somewhat cumbersome, but neat passer who isn't very good at all at moving the ball forward, and who's not got a very long range of passing. He'll certainly slow our play down considerably, which is the opposite of what we need IMO.

He's not very good at getting up and down the field, but he is effective when played as a second striker like he was during last season. As a target man he excels at controlling the ball, holding people off and bringing them into play using his big frame. That, along with his obvious goal threat and aerial strength, are by far his biggest pros.

That's not something you want your midfielders to be doing, we're more than adept at pointlessly just about keeping possession in our own half. We want our midfielders to pass progressively, and to support our attackers by getting up the field - and more importantly, we'll want our midfielders to offer creative solutions from deep and advanced positions. This is Cleverley's biggest weakness, he's not the most adventurous passer, but even so it's certainly not Fellaini's strength either.

Defensively I don't find that he's the most effective either. He's a very strong player, and he's got a nasty streak about him which I certainly like and think we need even, but positionally he's not very sound when asked to play the DM or CM role. Carrick solves that role much better. As a foil for Carrick I can buy the argument that he makes us more solid defensively, but at which cost? I'm not sure being more solid defensively is our biggest need as of now.