I like Cleverley - a lot. I just think he tends to differ to Carrick (like Carrick used to to Scholes) too much. Let's not turn this thread into Cleverley vs Fellaini though.
Marouane Fellaini | 2013/14 Performances
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I like Cleverley - a lot. I just think he tends to differ to Carrick (like Carrick used to to Scholes) too much. Let's not turn this thread into Cleverley vs Fellaini though.
feck offYou said that none of our other CMs complimented Carrick though. I think Cleverley does. Fellaini's reading of the game and positional discipline is awful for someone who considers themselves a defensive midfielder.
Cleverley doesn't have great positional awareness either, to be fair.
When Fellaini was at Everton he was better defensively than Clev has been for us, so not sure what you're on about here. Cleverley has better movement and passing.
Cleverley's positioning and defensive contribution has been miles better this season actually, and I'm not sure how people haven't noticed it. Brilliant against Chelsea, and spot on yesterday. One of the biggest criticisms of Cleverley used to be that he chased the person with the ball rather than positioning himself for an interception/tackle but the improvement this season is clear as day.
Everyone knows he was good defensively against Sunderland, its one game though. So it seems like you're getting a little carried away. If he maintains the level of defensive contribution he showed at the weekend for a few months, then maybe Clev being better than Fellaini defensively will become a debate. As it stands though you're jumping the gun, Fellaini has been good defensively for three or four seasons now - it seems like you're judging him solely on his United form and ignoring what he's proven in the past.
Cleverley doesn't consider himself a defensive midfielder, Fellaini does. Fellaini is marginally better suited to be a Carrick deputy - though he can do nothing that Jones can't as a DM - but Cleverley is far more suited to be Carrick's partner in midfield because, as you said, his movement and passing are better.
I'm still not sure what's the plan with Fellaini. He's not going to get us goals from midfield playing from a deep position and he's not going to dislodge Rooney either. He doesn't ease our reliance on Carrick. It's all a bit odd, it's hard to see him fitting in unless we sell Rooney and change our style.
Nah the latter will never happen, and he'll never play as a number 10 at United.
I think its clear Moyes sees him as the first choice partner next to Carrick. He spent nearly £30million on him, so the intention is obviously to play him.
I think his best position for us would be the role he played vs Leverkusen, which was shielding the back four. I thought that was a really good performance and allowed our attacking players to do what they had too.
When he comes back to full fitness I hope to see him playing that role again. He was great against City or Shakhtar granted but there's no way I'd write him off yet. I actually wasn't the biggest advocate when we were linked with him but I'm going to support him now he's at our club. Give him a bit of time before writing him off I think he'll improve but won't take our midfield to the next level but definitely gives us more options.
When he comes back to full fitness I hope to see him playing that role again. He was great against City or Shakhtar granted but there's no way I'd write him off yet. I actually wasn't the biggest advocate when we were linked with him but I'm going to support him now he's at our club. Give him a bit of time before writing him off I think he'll improve but won't take our midfield to the next level but definitely gives us more options.
Fellaini's plaudits at Everton came playing behind the striker. Were 7 games into the season in which Cleverley hasn't played them all. I mentioned two games where I remember him being putting in a good defensive shift, you chose to focus on one. Cleverley isn't even a DM yet his defensive contribution this season is head and shoulders above a Fellaini's, and regardless of the defensive part of his game the way he plays is far more complimentary to Carrick than anything I've ever seem from Fellaini.
Fellaini played in midfield far more than he played behind the striker at Everton, and his defensive contribution was consistently better than anything we have seen from Cleverley.
Clev was alright in the 0-0 against Chelsea, but it certainly wasn't "head and shoulders" above Fellaini vs Leverkusen - no idea what's made you think that. Bizzare.
Sunderland was a far better performance defensively from Cleverley, but it was one game. If he carries that on then he might eventually have a claim to being better defensively, but at the moment he certainly doesn't, as its been a proven aspect of Fellaini's game for years.
Fellaini played well in the first half of that one game against a Leverkusen team that sat off us and has looked far far out of his depth since. Cleverley isn't even a defensive midfielder yet his defensive contribution is far above Fellaini this season. Fellaini doesn't read the game well, let's his man just run off him, and he gets bullied off the ball. The man we thought would help us bully people off the ball is actually getting dispossessed on a frequent basis. He's poor as a DM and has a lot to learn and fast if he's to play there in a midfield two on a consistent basis.
Early days, you can't write him off so soon.
Firstly - hilarious you try and play down Fellaini vs Leverkusen, whilst banging on about Cleverley against bottom of the league Sunderland
As I said, its clear you're judging him solely off his few games at United and not on his five seasons at Everton. Why don't you ask an Everton fan if Fellaini gets bullied off the ball? Fellaini being worse defensively and getting bullied more than Cleverley is literally the most mental thing I have ever read. He's a 6 ft 4 monster and has a reputation for being aggressive/dirty, he would barely ever be bullied out of match - quite the opposite.
We know he's generally been shit since coming to a new club but that isn't unheard of, is it? He has proven over five years that he can play in a midfield two (making your last point another mental one), and that he is defensively robust - far more so than Cleverley has previously shown.
Firstly - hilarious you try and play down Fellaini vs Leverkusen, whilst banging on about Cleverley against bottom of the league Sunderland
As I said, its clear you're judging him solely off his few games at United and not on his five seasons at Everton. Why don't you ask an Everton fan if Fellaini gets bullied off the ball? Fellaini being worse defensively and getting bullied more than Cleverley is literally the most mental thing I have ever read. He's a 6 ft 4 monster and has a reputation for being aggressive/dirty, he would barely ever be bullied out of match - quite the opposite.
We know he's generally been shit since coming to a new club but that isn't unheard of, is it? He has proven over five years that he can play in a midfield two (making your last point another mental one), and that he is defensively robust - far more so than Cleverley has previously shown.
I dunno. I'd agree that he isn't likely to be muscled off the ball too often once he gets settled but I'm not sure his time at Everton proved he's good enough defensively to play as a DM for us. Before we signed him I had worries over his defensive intelligence, positioning and ability to track runners, something I certainly didn't see him display to a high standard at Everton. Beyond that, the few Everton fans I know didn't seem surprised by his apparent laziness in recent games, something he certainly needs to eradicate at our level. He can be as strong and aggressive as hell but that'll be useless if he keeps getting exposed as he did against City, for example.
Seven weeks out sucks for him but at least he'll be back for the clump of Christmas fixtures. I guess the question is will it be Anderson or Jones that rotates in when Carrick or Cleverley are rested.
Hopefully he gets back as soon as possible, mainly just in terms of stocking up the the options in the middle as they are very limited at the moment.
With a wrist injury, he should have no problem keeping his cardio fitness up. So hopefully he'll be able to hit the ground running when he comes back.
Maybe this is a good time to take a breather and get to know his club and teammates better too, albeit from the sidelines.
Maybe this is a good time to take a breather and get to know his club and teammates better too, albeit from the sidelines.
Firstly - hilarious you try and play down Fellaini vs Leverkusen, whilst banging on about Cleverley against bottom of the league Sunderland
As I said, its clear you're judging him solely off his few games at United and not on his five seasons at Everton. Why don't you ask an Everton fan if Fellaini gets bullied off the ball? Fellaini being worse defensively and getting bullied more than Cleverley is literally the most mental thing I have ever read. He's a 6 ft 4 monster and has a reputation for being aggressive/dirty, he would barely ever be bullied out of match - quite the opposite.
We know he's generally been shit since coming to a new club but that isn't unheard of, is it? He has proven over five years that he can play in a midfield two (making your last point another mental one), and that he is defensively robust - far more so than Cleverley has previously shown.
I was one of the people against his signing in the summer so I'm not sure how you come to the conclusion that I'm only judging him from his few games for us. It was clear to me from when he played for Everton that he wasn't good enough for us.
Just because you see Fellaini as physically big and imposing doesn't mean that he isn't robbed of the ball easily (or bullied off the ball). Last season he was dispossessed 2.4 times per game to Carricks 0.8 and Cleverley's 0.5. It's hardly new. The season before it was an average of 2 times per game to Carricks 0.3.
For us so far he was dispossessed 5 times against Shakhtar, 4 against Leverkusen and 3 against City. And in that City game he made 1 tackle and 0 interceptions when Cleverley was on the pitch nearly an hour less and made two tackles and an interception in his cameo.
He's always been known for committing niggly fouls rather than holding position and reading the game well in order to position himself well to break up the play. Most fouls per game in the league last year, despite playing as a forward. That's what you get from Fellaini. Just because he 'has a reputation for being aggressive/dirty' as you say doesn't make him effective defensively when it's almost always by committing fouls rather than intelligent interceptions/tackles.
You just have to watch him to see how poor he is at shielding the ball despite being physically big. He has his uses in winning aerial duels, chesting the ball down and laying it off, but the fact that Cleverely doesn't dwell on the ball, he passes and moves quicker means he's less likely to be caught in possession and be bullied off the ball than Fellaini who has a slower passing style and holds onto the ball a bit longer. His lack of tempo is another reason why he isn't the best partner for Carrick.
Sky Sports just said he will play for Belgium on the weekend. Where has this seven weeks stuff come from?
Edit: Ahh, just read he needs surgery, which would explain things.
Edit: Ahh, just read he needs surgery, which would explain things.
The Belgium manager wants him to play for the national team and delay the surgery. He'll still be out for a while, but if he plays for Belgium that will delay his return by another week.
So Belgium want him to play knowing he need surgery!!
Have they not made the Finals already ? Even if he plays with a splint he could fall badly on it and make it even worst and be out for even longer, he is injured he should of stayed behind and got the surgery done ASAP.
Have they not made the Finals already ? Even if he plays with a splint he could fall badly on it and make it even worst and be out for even longer, he is injured he should of stayed behind and got the surgery done ASAP.
On the topic of him being a "DM" or not, a lot of people seemed to think Fletcher was a DM... Fellaini is the exact same kind of player if played in a midfield 3, but hes more versatile because he can also be moved up front as a target man if its needed.
Im not saying hes a DM, but he could do some defensive work if we play 3 central midfielders and Fellaini is given the free role with Carrick as the main defensive anchor and Ando or Clev as the more attack-minded. Its how I think he would work best if Moyes absolutely wants to stuff him into central midfield. Not saying thats how I want us to play, because its a defensive-minded and boring kind of midfield 3.
All in all Fellaini seems a pointless buy that doesnt fit into the team unless we build the midfield around him. Which is a pointless exercise as hes a limited player not worth building around.
Im not saying hes a DM, but he could do some defensive work if we play 3 central midfielders and Fellaini is given the free role with Carrick as the main defensive anchor and Ando or Clev as the more attack-minded. Its how I think he would work best if Moyes absolutely wants to stuff him into central midfield. Not saying thats how I want us to play, because its a defensive-minded and boring kind of midfield 3.
All in all Fellaini seems a pointless buy that doesnt fit into the team unless we build the midfield around him. Which is a pointless exercise as hes a limited player not worth building around.
This is the crux of it. It's a really odd signing.
I'm a bid pissed off about him being out for seven weeks mediocre player or not.
Why can't he play with a poorly wrist then?
I seem to remember 2 player playing with bad wrists/hands in Italia 90, was it Lineaker & Wilkins?
I seem to remember 2 player playing with bad wrists/hands in Italia 90, was it Lineaker & Wilkins?
I guarantee after 5-6 weeks of Cleverley/Anderson alongside Carrick, you lot will be begging for him to come back again.
He can, but if he wants to keep playing he would have to delay surgery till the end of the season... it's a long wait, he may as well get it done now.
So he's doing his surgery in December,....the busiest time of the year. Right.
Ok, I'm by no means a big Fellaini fan and anyone will tell you I'm a Cleverley fanboy, and some of your post was good, particularly the point about how often he is dispossessed compared to either Carrick or Cleverley. But the above claim is just ridiculous. He's absolutely brilliant at shielding the ball - possibly the best in the league at it apart from maybe RVP, Aguero and Toure. If you watch him and think he's bad at shielding the ball then there's something wrong with your eyes.
He's sure as hell not been brilliant doing it for us so far.
He was dispossessed by not shielding the ball properly three or four separate times vs Shakhtar I seem to remember.
But anyone who watched him often at Everton would know he's far better at it than he showed in that game. Of course some would twist it the other way, that one game was his true level while all the other games where he played better was just him flattering to deceive.
We're turning into Scousepool I'd hoped our fans would be a bit classier than this:
Adding more awkwardness to the post, Fellaini was described as a “Striker” in their official message.
http://www.soccersouls.com/2013/10/manchester-united-fans-happy-to-see-marouane-fellaini-injured/?
I'd hoped our fans would be a bit classier than this:“Let him go forever”
“Great news..Plz Don’t recover”
“Actually happy he is out, waste of money”
“We do not need both of them..moyes and fellaini”
“Great news..Plz Don’t recover”
“Actually happy he is out, waste of money”
“We do not need both of them..moyes and fellaini”
Adding more awkwardness to the post, Fellaini was described as a “Striker” in their official message.
http://www.soccersouls.com/2013/10/manchester-united-fans-happy-to-see-marouane-fellaini-injured/?
He's the best in the league at bringing the ball down on his chest, I'll give him that.
Shielding the ball and preventing people from dispossessing him? No.
We're turning into Scousepool
Please let's not start pretending that facebook comments have anything to do with the actual fans of a football club. It's hardly a new thing to see reams of incomprehensible bollocks on a club's facebook page.
FWIW, this is actually against the rules.
Unfair advantage, IIRC, came up in that newspaper "You're the ref" thing.
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