Mass shooting at Gay night club in Orlando

Massive Spanner said:
Christ, over 50. Just awful.

I know someone who moved to Florida last year and when I saw him at Christmas he said he could not believe how easy it was to get guns there.

Something must surely be done, this is now the biggest gun massacre in the US since the 19th century.
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Nothing will happen.

If the death of 20 preschoolers changed nothing,this wont either.

I am pretty sure this will happen again and we will all be here having the same arguments.
 
SwansonsTache said:
What the hell kind of weapon did he get ahold of? A full auto attack rifle?

I can understand people being allowed to buy shotguns and hunting rifles, but fecking tools of war?
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High capacity semi-auto assault rifle most likely. Full-autos are against the law, but there are easy modifications to change that.

And yet the NRA will fight tooth and nail to keep AR's legal.

Edit: seems to be confirmed above.
 
K2K said:
Nothing will happen.

If the death of 20 preschoolers changed nothing,this wont either.

I am pretty sure this will happen again and we will all be here having the same arguments.
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I think if there's genuine terrorism involved this time it might actually have an impact, but that's a long shot. Fact is though, this is the deadliest gun shooting in US history now so if nothing is done, then yeah, it truly is hopeless.
 
50 dead?

Awful. Will the culture of hatred against gay people be allowed to continue unchecked in Western mosques and madrasas as it currently is? I don't know what the situation is like in the US, but in the UK the most recent polling data on the matter suggests half of adherents to Islam think that homosexuality is so objectionable that it should not be permitted by the law. This kind of thinking doesn't just develop from nowhere. It is entrenched in Islamic thinking and is the mainstream. It is taught in mosques and in state-funded Islamic schools. We need less talk of 'extremism' and more talk about the kind of thinking that is the norm. Islamic teachers have a right to teach that homosexuality is a sin if that's what they believe, but they don't have a right to do it in schools and they do not a have a right to do it without being subject to full and unrestrained scrutiny. feck 'sensitivity'. Islam requires about as much sensitivity as any fascist political ideology does.
 
The FBI aren't ready to classify the shooting as a hate crime or terrorism yet, but plenty of people on the internet will be.
 
rednev said:
But how much focus will be placed on the actual religion of Islam and what it teaches about homosexuality and violence? We'll hear talk of 'extremism' and 'hate', but who will have the guts to be honest about Islam and apply to it the same standard of objection that we apply to any other political ideology that advocates violence against gay people?
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Two of my best mates are practicing muslims but they arent violent homophobes, so clearly its not that simple.
 
I know everyone is jumping on @VeevaVee for his hypothetical, however there is a reason why gunmen usually don't target heavily armed locations like police stations or army bases in the US, and gravitate towards places guns are explicitly forbidden, like night clubs and schools. There is documented evidence of armed civilians in the US taking out would-be mass murderers or armed criminals.

Ideally, no one has a gun in the first place*, but in the absence of that, I think it's fair to say that the presence of armed civilians in that club would at the very least, have forced the gunman into a more defensive stance, allowing more escapes to happen. Not that the solution is to allow nightclubs to let firearms in.

*and don't people get tired of arguing for gun control on a forum that is overwhelmingly for radical gun eradication in the US?
 
what kind of weapon allows a man to shoot over a hundred people in just a few minutes?
 
GloryHunter07 said:
Two of my best mates are practicing muslims but they arent violent homophobes, so clearly its not that simple.
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Ask them what they think God will do to gay people in the after life.
 
DJ Jeff said:
Of course guns have something to do with it, the entire debate however being shifted onto gun control which clearly wouldn't have impacted what happened today seeing as the guy was armed to the teeth with explosives is wrong. You simply don't want to admit that since you ran in here ranting about white males and gun control from the off before any details had emerged.
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You've no idea how many his homemade could've killed or even if it was a viable device. The police doing a controlled explosion is probably just standard, cautious procedure.
Your argument is bizarre- guns aren't the issue cos he had a bomb (which may or may not have worked). But he killed 20 with guns. Not a bomb.
 
Rado_N said:
The FBI aren't ready to classify the shooting as a hate crime or terrorism yet, but plenty of people on the internet will be.
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Calling it a hate crime would be the most obvious reaction.
 
Flamingo Purple said:
The glee with which some people receive the fact that the shooter was Muslim is sickening.
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Its 'the refugees' fault apparently and definitely a terrorist attack because the guy has a Muslim name.

Caus when white people do it thats called a mass shooting. Or something.
 
Flamingo Purple said:
The glee with which some people receive the fact that the shooter was Muslim is sickening.
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Additionally people outside of America receive it with glee because they can gloat "look at the stupid Americans and their guns". Some Americans also do when attacks happen here by saying "look at those stupid Europeans without guns". The lack of logic or empathy on both sides is just sad.
 
Horrible horrible news, yet why am I not surprised anymore? a country that allows individuals of any mental state to buy guns should not be surprised when shit like this happens anymore. Whay has been learned since Columbine? absolutely feck all.
 
rednev said:
50 dead?

Awful. Will the culture of hatred against gay people be allowed to continue unchecked in Western mosques and madrasas as it currently is? I don't know what the situation is like in the US, but in the UK the most recent polling data on the matter suggests half of adherents to Islam think that homosexuality is so objectionable that it should not be permitted by the law.
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What I suspect though is that number is far lower than it would have been in the 90s. A lot of Muslims are backward economically in the UK, so there would have been a tendency just follow what religion tells you. Most Muslims I know are simply accepting of gays because they see them on TV all the time.

rednev said:
This kind of thinking doesn't just develop from nowhere. It is entrenched in Islamic thinking and is the mainstream. It is taught in mosques and in state-funded Islamic schools. We need less talk of 'extremism' and more talk about the kind of thinking that is the norm. Islamic teachers have a right to teach that homosexuality is a sin if that's what they believe, but they don't have a right to do it in schools and they do not a have a right to do it without being subject to full and unrestrained scrutiny. feck 'sensitivity'. Islam requires about as much sensitivity as any fascist political ideology does.
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I agree though there should be no teaching in schools of homosexuality being sin. I don't think Madrassas or any religious school should exist but that's a whole other subject.
 
rednev said:
Ask them what they think God will do to gay people in the after life.
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My religion teaches me that gay people will go to hell. That doesn't mean I don't treat my gay friends as normal human beings and interact with them as I interact with other people. What God will do to gay people is his own business.
 
GloryHunter07 said:
Two of my best mates are practicing muslims but they arent violent homophobes, so clearly its not that simple.
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That's an anecdotal example, which is fine when disproving an absolute i.e. "all muslims are homophobes" but doesn't disprove "there are many muslims who are homophobes."
 
@rednev give your Islam baiting a rest ffs, we don't yet have a clue about the motivation of this shooting and you're only interested in bashing the religion not discussing this incident. Start a new thread if you want but leave it out of this one.
 
Klopper76 said:
Seems like this was an act driven by homophobia.
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No doubt those that want to make it a religious issue will.
It looks more like a hat crime. But hatred of gays is also influenced by religion.
 
Klopper76 said:
Seems like this was an act driven by homophobia.
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Doesn't matter, he's a Muslim so automatically this will be seen as a terrorist.

In a slightly serious sense, this actually does show the problem of a society having such ease to guns. This whackjob got pissed off and went on a shooting spree, if he access to guns was limited, the damage he could have done would have been far far less.
 
milemuncher777 said:
Don't let the facts get in the way of Rednev. He loves living in the little bubble of his.
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Of course it is not the case that all Muslims in the West positively support violence against gay people. But that doesn't change the fact that the religion itself does. When the religion supports it, it follows that some individuals will take action.

Adisa said:
My religion teaches me that gay people will go to hell. That doesn't mean I don't treat my gay friends as normal human beings and interact with them as I interact with other people. What God will do to gay people is his own business.
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Normal human beings whose destiny incidentally involves being burned for eternity by your god because of their homosexuality? FFS, just listen to yourself.
 
It's going to be labeled terrorism but it's more of a hate crime. This act could have been carried out by a Christian. And that was my first thought initially.
 
rednev said:
Of course it is not the case that all Muslims in the West positively support violence against gay people. But that doesn't change the fact that the religion itself does. When the religion supports it, it follows that some individuals will take action.



Normal human beings whose destiny incidentally involves being burned for eternity by your god because of their homosexuality? FFS, just listen to yourself.
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That is what it teaches. I dint write the bible. What I'm saying is that the guy being Muslim might have nothing to do with it. Can't you undertand that.

Edit: I don't know about Islam, but there is no suggestion in the bible that homosexuals should be burned or killed.
 
Rado_N said:
The FBI shouldn't be in the business of reaction judgements, which is really the point.
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Well yeah they have to be cautious and are in no hurry to label it. But when you have 50 gay men dead and his father coming out saying he was angry at the sight of two men kissing, I don't think it's too reactionary to call it a hate crime.
 
Feckin' BBC are spending more time on some old lady's 2nd birthday of the year instead of a huge mass murder which could have a massive effect on the world.
 
kps88 said:
Well yeah they have to be cautious and are in no hurry to label it. But when you have 50 gay men dead and his father coming out saying he was angry at the sight of two men kissing, I don't think it's too reactionary to call it a hate crime.
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Probably not, but with the way the public hang on these things they have to be careful.

Look at the shift in narrative on Twitter since the name was released, it's gone from hate crime to terrorism purley based on who the shooter is.

The FBI need to conclude their investigation before commenting too much.
 
kps88 said:
Well yeah they have to be cautious and are in no hurry to label it. But when you have 50 gay men dead and his father coming out saying he was angry at the sight of two men kissing, I don't think it's too reactionary to call it a hate crime.
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Bit of an extreme reaction to seeing two blokes kissing. Maybe it stirred thoughts within him that he needed to suppress.
 
Rado_N said:
@rednev give your Islam baiting a rest ffs, we don't yet have a clue about the motivation of this shooting and you're only interested in bashing the religion not discussing this incident. Start a new thread if you want but leave it out of this one.
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So the number one talking point (alongside the issue of gun access) around this shooting is not allowed to be discussed in this thread?

Have you thought this through?

I'll go away and come back later.
 
Rado_N said:
@rednev give your Islam baiting a rest ffs, we don't yet have a clue about the motivation of this shooting and you're only interested in bashing the religion not discussing this incident. Start a new thread if you want but leave it out of this one.
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Whereas you were quite happy to discuss the shooter when you were assuming it was a white male.
 
If the guy's response to seeing two men kissing is, ludicrously, to murder fifty-plus people then I'm not sure that religion has a major place in the debate; that's classic psychopathic thinking rather than 'religious thinking'. Or are we about to class, say, all German people as anti-semitic, or all people of vaguely Christian backgrounds as homophobic just because of historical dogma etc?
 
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