Mass shooting at Gay night club in Orlando

rednev said:
So the number one talking point (alongside the issue of gun access) around this shooting is not allowed to be discussed in this thread?

Have you thought this through?

I'll go away and come back later.
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On what planet is the number one talking point religion when we don't yet know the motivation for the attack?

You went off on a rant before the shooter had even been identified ffs.

If it turns out this was religiously motivated then go nuts, in the mean time don't drag the whole discussion that way.
 
rednev said:
So the number one talking point (alongside the issue of gun access) around this shooting is not allowed to be discussed in this thread?

Have you thought this through?

I'll go away and come back later.
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Has it been confirmed he's a Muslim and doesn't just got a Arabic sounding name? Not certain it has.
 
adexkola said:
I know everyone is jumping on @VeevaVee for his hypothetical, however there is a reason why gunmen usually don't target heavily armed locations like police stations or army bases in the US, and gravitate towards places guns are explicitly forbidden, like night clubs and schools. There is documented evidence of armed civilians in the US taking out would-be mass murderers or armed criminals.

Ideally, no one has a gun in the first place*, but in the absence of that, I think it's fair to say that the presence of armed civilians in that club would at the very least, have forced the gunman into a more defensive stance, allowing more escapes to happen. Not that the solution is to allow nightclubs to let firearms in.

*and don't people get tired of arguing for gun control on a forum that is overwhelmingly for radical gun eradication in the US?
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Yeah, that's all I was getting at..

FlawlessThaw said:
Doesn't matter, he's a Muslim so automatically this will be seen as a terrorist.

In a slightly serious sense, this actually does show the problem of a society having such ease to guns. This whackjob got pissed off and went on a shooting spree, if he access to guns was limited, the damage he could have done would have been far far less.
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..but this is what it boils down to.

Worse mass shooting in US history. Terrible.

Apparently they're desperate for blood donors for the injured. Don't suppose we have many Caf members in Florida?
 
Fingeredmouse said:
So do I, but a fairly incontrovertible point here surely?
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FlawlessThaw said:
I can't stand the man either but he has a point. It's insane that a civilian has access to machines like that.
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I own an AR-15. It has never just jumped up and started shooting people. To point out the type of gun used is ridiculous.

"machines like that"... machines like what? It shoots 1 round for every 1 pull of the trigger, the same as a revolver, the same as a lever action, the same as a bolt action, the same as literally every single semi-automatic firearm on the planet.
 
SteveJ said:
If the guy's response to seeing two men kissing is, ludicrously, to murder fifty-plus people then I'm not sure that religion has a major place in the debate; that's classic psychopathic thinking rather than 'religious thinking'. Or are we about to class, say, all German people as anti-semitic, or all people of vaguely Christian backgrounds as homophobic just because of historical dogma etc?
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That's what it seems like to me as well. The number one issue besides the ease of access to guns is homophobia. What motivated the homophobia is up for debate but that is a lesser issue than the first two.
 
Adisa said:
My religion teaches me that gay people will go to hell. That doesn't mean I don't treat my gay friends as normal human beings and interact with them as I interact with other people. What God will do to gay people is his own business.
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Does your religion consider it a duty for you to do something about gayness? Convert them or something?

Not being funny here, genuine question.
 
I have a friend who's currently in America, down South. He says this massacre is barely even being reported.
 
Carolina Red said:
I own an AR-15. It has never just jumped up and started shooting people. To point out the type of gun used is ridiculous.

"machines like that"... machines like what? It shoots 1 round for every 1 pull of the trigger, the same as a revolver, the same as a lever action, the same as a bolt action, the same as literally every single semi-automatic firearm on the planet.
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Isn't it easier to modify guns like the AR-15 into full-auto rifles though? You can't do that with handguns, lever or bolt action.

I just fail to see the point of a civillian owning such a thing, it is not like it is good for hunting or even self-defence, it just seems like a gadget type of thing. No doubt it is cool to have if you have an interest in guns, but there is no doubting the destructive potential of them.
 
Carolina Red said:
I own an AR-15. It has never just jumped up and started shooting people. To point out the type of gun used is ridiculous.

"machines like that"... machines like what? It shoots 1 round for every 1 pull of the trigger, the same as a revolver, the same as a lever action, the same as a bolt action, the same as literally every single semi-automatic firearm on the planet.
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They're also easily modified to be fully automatic, and are equipped with high capacity magazines.

I'm sure you're a responsible gun owner, but unfortunately the item you can be trusted to own is too dangerous to be readily available to the public. The law around gun ownership needs to be tailored to the lowest level of responsibility, not the highest.
 
Massive Spanner said:
I think if there's genuine terrorism involved this time it might actually have an impact, but that's a long shot. Fact is though, this is the deadliest gun shooting in US history now so if nothing is done, then yeah, it truly is hopeless.
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Doing something imo means gun control.

That won't happen. The NRA are far too powerful,and for some people in this debate,this reprsents more than guns. Someone explained to me the biggest reason why pro-Gunners are against such laws is because it takes away their civil liberties and gives the government too much power. Once it becomes such an ideological debate like that,neither party is likely to back down.
 
Adisa said:
My religion teaches me that gay people will go to hell. That doesn't mean I don't treat my gay friends as normal human beings and interact with them as I interact with other people. What God will do to gay people is his own business.
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It's God's fault they're gay, so eternal punishment is an asinine belief. But God is imaginary yet man's hateful thinking is quite real.
 
Carolina Red said:
I own an AR-15. It has never just jumped up and started shooting people. To point out the type of gun used is ridiculous.

"machines like that"... machines like what? It shoots 1 round for every 1 pull of the trigger, the same as a revolver, the same as a lever action, the same as a bolt action, the same as literally every single semi-automatic firearm on the planet.
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Hold up. I've used M-4s with three-round bursts. Are AR-15s not made with this option?
 
Carolina Red said:
I own an AR-15. It has never just jumped up and started shooting people. To point out the type of gun used is ridiculous.

"machines like that"... machines like what? It shoots 1 round for every 1 pull of the trigger, the same as a revolver, the same as a lever action, the same as a bolt action, the same as literally every single semi-automatic firearm on the planet.
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Forgive my ignorance of the exact makes of semi automatic weaponary, which are of course an entirely reasonable category of civilian tool for firing bits of metal through things at high speed.
 
SwansonsTache said:
Isn't it easier to modify guns like the AR-15 into full-auto rifles though? You can't do that with handguns, lever or bolt action.

I just fail to see the point of a civillian owning such a thing, it is not like it is good for hunting or even self-defence, it just seems like a gadget type of thing. No doubt it is cool to have if you have an interest in guns, but there is no doubting the destructive potential of them.
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You can easily modify a pistol into being fully automatic in the same method as you modify an AR-15 into being fully automatic by filing down the seer in the firing mechanism. To do so is a felony, but as we have seen with bans on things, if a criminal wants to do it or have it, he will.

I've used my AR-15 to hunt before. There are dozens of models of AR-15 designed specifically to hunt certain game animals. I don't see how any firearm could be discounted for its self defense uses.
 
Rado_N said:
They're also easily modified to be fully automatic, and are equipped with high capacity magazines.

I'm sure you're a responsible gun owner, but unfortunately the item you can be trusted to own is too dangerous to be readily available to the public. The law around gun ownership needs to be tailored to the lowest level of responsibility, not the highest.
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Any semi-automatic gun can be easily modified to be fully automatic. Any semi-automatic pistol can also have a high capacity magazine. The shooter could have easily done the same thing with a wide range of guns.
 
Carolina Red said:
You can easily modify a pistol into being fully automatic in the same method as you modify an AR-15 into being fully automatic by filing down the seer in the firing mechanism. To do so is a felony, but as we have seen with bans on things, if a criminal wants to do it or have it, he will.

I've used my AR-15 to hunt before. There are dozens of models of AR-15 designed specifically to hunt certain game animals. I don't see how any firearm could be discounted for its self defense uses.
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Self defence from what. Angry stampeding wildebeest?
 
Carolina Red said:
I own an AR-15. It has never just jumped up and started shooting people. To point out the type of gun used is ridiculous.

"machines like that"... machines like what? It shoots 1 round for every 1 pull of the trigger, the same as a revolver, the same as a lever action, the same as a bolt action, the same as literally every single semi-automatic firearm on the planet.
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Machines that are essentially designed to kill. For me any type of gun owned by a civilian is extreme, let alone anything more deadly than a handgun or a musket!

In any case the fact that a civilian can access an AR-15 is worth pointing out. It would be great if every fecker who owned a civilian was as sane as you are but reality is society is as damaged as our worse sort. This guy had access because you did, the problem is he got off on one because he saw two men kissing and he had the means to do as much as he did.
 
Carolina Red said:
You can easily modify a pistol into being fully automatic in the same method as you modify an AR-15 into being fully automatic by filing down the seer in the firing mechanism. To do so is a felony, but as we have seen with bans on things, if a criminal wants to do it or have it, he will.

I've used my AR-15 to hunt before. There are dozens of models of AR-15 designed specifically to hunt certain game animals. I don't see how any firearm could be discounted for its self defense uses.
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Yes, but isn't it easier to get big magazines for the AR-15 than for pistols? I would imagine that spraying a room with an AR-15 is more handy than a auto pistol.

I am not familiar with the different models of AR-15, when I think of hunting rifles I think of the more classic wooden stocked ones with a scope on like we use to hunt deer around here.

What I mean by the AR-15 not being as handy for self defense uses is that it really isn't handy for carrying around and carrying concealed. Will probably be handy if someone storms your house though.
 
Carolina Red said:
Any semi-automatic gun can be easily modified to be fully automatic. Any semi-automatic pistol can also have a high capacity magazine. The shooter could have easily done the same thing with a wide range of guns.
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And all should be illegal and unavailable for the same reason as I outlined previously.
 
FlawlessThaw said:
Machines that are essentially designed to kill. For me any type of gun owned by a civilian is extreme, let alone anything more deadly than a handgun or a musket!

In any case the fact that a civilian can access an AR-15 is worth pointing out. It would be great if every fecker who owned a civilian was as sane as you are but reality is society is as damaged as our worse sort. This guy had access because you did, the problem is he got off on one because he saw two men kissing and he had the means to do as much as he did.
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All guns are designed to kill. That's why they exist.

Civilian gun ownership is why this country exists, so forgive me for not agreeing with you.

Would it have been better had he used bombs to kill the people instead?

It doesn't matter how he killed the people. Had he wanted to do it, he would have, and he did.
 
FFS. The worst mass shooting in US history and one that looks increasingly likely to be an act of religiously-motivated terrorism and the British news channels are prattling on about the Queen and the nauseating creeps who have turned out for her birthday.
 
Carolina Red said:
Any semi-automatic gun can be easily modified to be fully automatic. Any semi-automatic pistol can also have a high capacity magazine. The shooter could have easily done the same thing with a wide range of guns.
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As a person with knowledge of guns, you should know it's easier to pull this off to a greater effect with an assault rifle than a pistol.

Should every country and dictator have tactical nukes? We haven't used them irresponsibly, they must be fine for everyone...
 
Adisa said:
My religion teaches me that gay people will go to hell. That doesn't mean I don't treat my gay friends as normal human beings and interact with them as I interact with other people. What God will do to gay people is his own business.
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Why don't you renounce your religion then?
 
SwansonsTache said:
Yes, but isn't it easier to get big magazines for the AR-15 than for pistols? I would imagine that spraying a room with an AR-15 is more handy than a auto pistol.

I am not familiar with the different models of AR-15, when I think of hunting rifles I think of the more classic wooden stocked ones with a scope on like we use to hunt deer around here.

What I mean by the AR-15 not being as handy for self defense uses is that it really isn't handy for carrying around and carrying concealed. Will probably be handy if someone storms your house though.
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I can as easily purchase 30 round magazines for my Glock 19 as I can 30 round magazines for my AR.

Yes it would be, which is one of the reasons why I own it.
 
Carolina Red said:
All guns are designed to kill. That's why they exist.

Civilian gun ownership is why this country exists, so forgive me for not agreeing with you.

Would it have been better had he used bombs to kill the people instead?

It doesn't matter how he killed the people. Had he wanted to do it, he would have, and he did.
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Civilian gun ownership is a strange thing to base your society on in the 21st century.
 
Carolina Red said:
You can easily modify a pistol into being fully automatic in the same method as you modify an AR-15 into being fully automatic by filing down the seer in the firing mechanism. To do so is a felony, but as we have seen with bans on things, if a criminal wants to do it or have it, he will.

I've used my AR-15 to hunt before. There are dozens of models of AR-15 designed specifically to hunt certain game animals. I don't see how any firearm could be discounted for its self defense uses.
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Thats a ludicrous equivalency. It's a far easier proposition to file a bit of metal down with the only thing stopping you being 'its illegal' than it is to purchase a gun off the black market at ludicrous expense and personal danger. A complete blanket ban on guns might not reduce gun crime to 0, but its a damn sight better than whats going on in the US now. How anyone can argue against that at this point I do not know.
 
Carolina Red said:
All guns are designed to kill. That's why they exist.

Civilian gun ownership is why this country exists, so forgive me for not agreeing with you.

Would it have been better had he used bombs to kill the people instead?

It doesn't matter how he killed the people. Had he wanted to do it, he would have, and he did.
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It does matter, because unfortunately numbers matter. Clearly bombs are banned and difficult to make, so he could hardly go out and kill people with a bomb in anger. If he didn't have access to a gun, maybe he would have used knives, would have a killed a lot less people.

Civilian guns are a lot different to when your country first came to existence. It also existed for other reasons which are not around right now.
 
Organic Potatoes said:
As a person with knowledge of guns, you should know it's easier to pull this off to a greater effect with an assault rifle than a pistol.

Should every country and dictator have tactical nukes? We haven't used them irresponsibly, they must be fine for everyone...
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An assault rifle was not used in the attack.
 
NinjaFletch said:
Thats a ludicrous equivalency. It's a far easier proposition to file a bit of metal down with the only thing stopping you being 'its illegal' than it is to purchase a gun off the black market at ludicrous expense and personal danger. A complete blanket ban on guns might not reduce gun crime to 0, but its a damn sight better than whats going on in the US now. How anyone can argue against that at this point I do not know.
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Filing the seer is banned. People still do it. How is that a ludicrous equivalency?
 
Carolina Red said:
Well, we have the 2nd amendment, so that's impossible without Constitutional amendment. And that's not happening.
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I'm fully aware of the Constitution, however simply saying that isn't good enough.

The Constitution can and should change. Yes it's extraordinarily unlikely, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't talk about it, we can live in hope that the people in power will wake the feck up.
 
Carolina Red said:
All guns are designed to kill. That's why they exist.

Civilian gun ownership is why this country exists, so forgive me for not agreeing with you.

Would it have been better had he used bombs to kill the people instead?

It doesn't matter how he killed the people. Had he wanted to do it, he would have, and he did.
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The single biggest idiotic myth on the planet
 
Honest question @CarolinaRED - why do you feel the desire to own an AR-15?

I only use an M4 when required to do military shooting qualification. I just don't get the psychology behind the desire of owning military grade weaponry.
 
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