Mass shooting at Gay night club in Orlando

Adisa said:
I was brought up a Christian yet I do not hate.
I'm not here to argue the authenticity or reality of religious beliefs. All I am saying is iF the bible says there will be eternal punishment for Gay people, that is none of my business since I am not God.
And also not every homophobe is born out of religious conviction.
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So a religion you follow is based on a god that hates gay people (despite creating them), and that's none of your business?

That's a strange way of looking at it.
 
Something I've wondered about in the past, if you have a gun to protect your home, at what point do you decide to blow them away? As soon as you see them?
 
SwansonsTache said:
I must admit that if I lived in the US I would have owned a gun. Just because of these robberies you read about with gang members breaking into homes, and the sheer lunacy of everyday crime over there.

Which is why I sometimes take issue with people here in Norway being all high and mighty about the "gun wielding Americans", we are viewing this with our Norwegian specs on, where a sheep hit by a car will reach the news. In the US you need to kill atleast 5 people to be worthy of a tiny notice in the local newspaper.
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Precisely.
 
This isn't just religious nutters. Recently a cop in Hawaii arrested two women for being affectionate in a supermarket
 
Olly said:
Something I've wondered about in the past, if you have a gun to protect your home, at what point do you decide to blow them away? As soon as you see them?
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In my state, as soon as they come through the door. My family is a lot more important than that intruder.
 
Adisa said:
I once asked a guy on a forum why he had over 3000 rounds. Self defense was his answer.
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I don't have that many, but I have several hundred. Shooting at the range is fun. Buy ammo when it is on sale so that your practice is cheaper.

You wouldn't want responsible gun owners with crappy aim would you?
 
Carolina Red said:
Timothy McVeigh killed many more people with fertilizer and a minivan.
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Ah, but McVeigh was a staunch gun rights believer, possessed numerous guns over the course of his life, and traveled to various gun shows throughout the US. He was arrested with an illegal gun on his person (i.e. no legal permit for his concealment) immediately after the OKC bombing and this ultimately led to his indictment while he was in jail pending charges (as evidence linking him to the OKC bombing came to light). The man was a lunatic no matter how you slice it. He used the fertilizer bomb as a direct response to the US's "hypocrisy" of WMD.
 
MrMarcello said:
Ah, but McVeigh was a staunch gun rights believer, possessed numerous guns over the course of his life, and traveled to various gun shows throughout the US. He was arrested with an illegal gun on his person (i.e. no legal permit for his concealment). The man was a lunatic no matter how you slice it. He used the fertilizer bomb as a direct response to the US's "hypocrisy" of WMD.
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What point do you have regarding his views on guns? He killed all those people with... a bomb.
 
NinjaFletch said:
I'm sure we have the same amount of nutters. The relative difficulty of killing 50 odd people with a knife as opposed to a gun makes the damage they can do much less memorable.
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Also kind of makes it hard work, so they probably go buy some chocolate ice cream instead.
 
Carolina Red said:
In my state, as soon as they come through the door. My family is a lot more important than that intruder.
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So where do you keep your gun?

I assume safely out of the way of your children, right? Which means it's probably going to be quite difficult to actually ... get it before they come through the door.
 
The only reason to own an AR is for the thrill. It's not a good weapon for home defense or hunting. You see these wackos all the time with their body armour, chest rigs etc. thinking they are freedom fighters or something.
 
Redlambs said:
So a religion you follow is based on a god that hates gay people (despite creating them), and that's none of your business?

That's a strange way of looking at it.
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Precisely. It seems like there's 2 issues being discussed here, the first being the gun laws in the US, the second that of religion and the bigotry associated with it (the Abraham religions more specifically). I'm more interested in the latter since this was obviously a targeted attack rather than a nutter simply flipping.

I think it's safe to say that even with the gun laws in place, that doesn't stop mass slaughter by religious extremists or encourage those associated with them to stand up.

I'd feel far safer in a gun and organised religion free country.
 
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Carolina Red said:
I don't have that many, but I have several hundred. Shooting at the range is fun. Buy ammo when it is on sale so that your practice is cheaper.

You wouldn't want responsible gun owners with crappy aim would you?
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And here lies the real crux of the argument for why people oppose gun control.
 
Redlambs said:
So do you think it would be safer for everyone to be armed? Just a genuine question, I'd appreciate an honest response as I'm merely interested.
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If you lived in the US where house invasion robberies, often with fatal consequences and\or horrible consequences for the females in the house was common, wouldn't you be more comfortable owning a pistol atleast?

I mean, the frequency of these occurances are quite staggering in certain areas of the US, us Europeans just cant wrap our head around everyday crime in the US, the gang situation etc.

I have honestly lost count of all the cases I have read about with house invasion robberies as gang initiations in the US, where the consequences for the families affected was horrible.
 
Carolina Red said:
There haven't been bombings around the world recently?
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I never said that. Your point seems to be if it wasn't guns it would just be some other device such as a bomb, well why are there far more mass shootings in the US than bombings in Germany, Italy, Spain, Japan, Korea, Japan, UK etc. It's not like the US is the only country to have crazy people who want to kill, it's just in other countries they don't do it as often.
 
Also I'm pretty sure if someone came into my house with a gun, my first thought wouldn't be to get my gun and start a shootout with them, it would be "take whatever the feck material possession you want, but leave my family alone".

But hey, that's just me.
 
Another gun control discussion, another reason to post this and this
 
Redlambs said:
So do you think it would be safer for everyone to be armed? Just a genuine question, I'd appreciate an honest response as I'm merely interested.
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"An armed society is a polite society". I fully support my nation's 2nd Amendment right.

The creation of "gun free zones" in this country has created invitations for cowards who want to harm people. They know that they can go there and do the most damage without the possibility of people having a chance to fight back.

You may attack me on the street and kill me. You may break into my house and kill me. Etc. But at least my Constitution recognized that I have the right to defend myself with just as much or greater force than any attacker might bring against me.

I realize that bad people with guns do bad things. But bad people do bad things period. That has been a common theme throughout human history. I just want the right to protect myself and my family from those bad people.
 
esmufc07 said:
Veeva I have to agree with Nick and Pops. It'd be absolute chaos if everyone was armed inside a nightclub and someone came in and started shooting at people. Between the people running for cover, the people trying to identify the killer and the stray bullets flying everywhere you'd probably end up with more dead than you otherwise would have.

Sadly mass shooting are always going to be an issue in the US until they ban ownership of guns.

It will never happen though.
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Guns are banned all over Chicago and people are murdered and shot there at an alarming rate. Simply "banning" guns won't solve the issue - there are more guns in circulation than people living in the US and if you think that everyone will comply with that law and turn their guns in you're either naive or helplessly idealistic - just look at Chicago. The result will simply be that good people don't have a means to protect themselves and a large portion of the 300m+ guns in circulation will continue to float between the hands of criminals.
 
"I like my gun, it's fun"

"but your ability to enjoy that has the wider consequence of any nutter being able to buy guns too, and thousands of people are dying every year"

"yea, but, I like my gun"
 
SwansonsTache said:
If you lived in the US where house invasion robberies, often with fatal consequences and\or horrible consequences for the females in the house, wouldn't you be more comfortable owning a pistol atleast?

I mean, the frequency of these occurances are quite staggering in certain areas of the US, us Europeans just cant wrap our head around everyday crime in the US, the gang situation etc.
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This has nothing to do with my question.

But I don't know how I'd feel. You talk as if the whole country is a lawless state, my experiences of America have been anything but that.

Besides, as I said to you in an earlier post, surely banning rifles is at least a start. The alternative is doing nothing at all. Which side would you stand on?
 
Rado_N said:
"I like my gun, it's fun"

"but your ability to enjoy that has the wider consequence of any nutter being able to buy guns too, and thousands of people are dying every year"

"yea, but, I like my gun"
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Ah, you've seen Jim Jefferies too!

"Feck off... I like guns!"
 
Adisa said:
I was brought up a Christian yet I do not hate.
I'm not here to argue the authenticity or reality of religious beliefs. All I am saying is iF the bible says there will be eternal punishment for Gay people, that is none of my business since I am not God.
And also not every homophobe is born out of religious conviction.
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I'm not asking about the authenticity, I'm asking why you are still part of it. It teaches gay people should burn in hell. Don't be part that, just leave.
 
Redlambs said:
This has nothing to do with my question.

But I don't know how I'd feel. You talk as if the whole country is a lawless state, my experiences of America have been anything but that.

Besides, as I said to you in an earlier post, surely banning rifles is at least a start. The alternative is doing nothing at all. Which side would you stand on?
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I'd say yes to banning these combat type guns since they are just unneccesary, but due to the nature of everyday crime and the frequency of it in the US I would keep handguns and pistols legal.
 
SwansonsTache said:
If you lived in the US where house invasion robberies, often with fatal consequences and\or horrible consequences for the females in the house was common, wouldn't you be more comfortable owning a pistol atleast?

I mean, the frequency of these occurances are quite staggering in certain areas of the US, us Europeans just cant wrap our head around everyday crime in the US, the gang situation etc.

I have honestly lost count of all the cases I have read about with house invasion robberies as gang initiations in the US, where the consequences for the families affected was horrible.
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I think you watch far too many crime shows and documentaries about the US. I've been all over it and never encountered any crime. Like most countries it has segregated, crime rich areas, the difference being is that in those areas, they all have guns.
 
Redlambs said:
So a religion you follow is based on a god that hates gay people (despite creating them), and that's none of your business?

That's a strange way of looking at it.
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Don't want to derail the thread and I'm not a serious Christian so my knowledge is bit sketchy. but Gods relationship with other people is non of my business and the bible doesn't say God hates gay people. The bible also says "fornicators" will go to hell if they don't repent. That doesn't mean Christians don't fornicate and that God hates them.
Crux of my argument is that there is nothing in the bible that suggests Gay should be burned, killed or not treated like any other law abiding citizen.
I don't know about Islam but Chrsitian who use religion to justify their narrow minded views on these things are in the wrong and aren't backed by the book they claim to believe in.
 
Carolina Red said:
This is correct. Law abiding citizens would become unarmed, while criminals will refuse to follow the law and keep theirs.
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Which is pretty much the case in almost every country with gun laws. And a damn sight better. I'm far more worried about Honest Joe, who was already having a nervous breakdown due to work-related issues, catching me banging his wife, than I am with a professional armed robber or drug dealer.

Criminals indeed have guns here, but whenever they use them it's not like other people having one would make much difference. They use the element of surprise to subdue or threaten their victims doing robbery. What good does a weapon in your safe going to do? And are you going to risk your life by drawing your concealed one when being robbed at gun-point?

It's all these wife beaters, "honest" sociopaths lurking around, people whose first crime in their life is killing someone else... That's a lion share of murders, in my country I'd wager that amounts to far more than half of them. Domestic violence alone accounts for 30%.
 
Carolina Red said:
"An armed society is a polite society". I fully support my nation's 2nd Amendment right.

The creation of "gun free zones" in this country has created invitations for cowards who want to harm people. They know that they can go there and do the most damage without the possibility of people having a chance to fight back.

You may attack me on the street and kill me. You may break into my house and kill me. Etc. But at least my Constitution recognized that I have the right to defend myself with just as much or greater force than any attacker might bring against me.

I realize that bad people with guns do bad things. But bad people do bad things period. That has been a common theme throughout human history. I just want the right to protect myself and my family from those bad people.
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I'm not judging you here, I don't live where you do so I'm not in a position to, and I'm not going to go on some rant about your response.

I was just interested if you think the answer is everyone should be armed. Clearly you do, so thanks for an honest response.
 
Redlambs said:
This has nothing to do with my question.

But I don't know how I'd feel. You talk as if the whole country is a lawless state, my experiences of America have been anything but that.

Besides, as I said to you in an earlier post, surely banning rifles is at least a start. The alternative is doing nothing at all. Which side would you stand on?
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More people are killed in this country with pistols than anything, and by a large margin... yet because of the media harping on AR's you want to ban rifles.
 
Carolina Red said:
With all due respect, that's bullshat.

I go to the range to practice. Practice happens to be fun, but I practice in order to be ready for a day that I hope never comes.
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But if that day comes you're going to use your gun on the attacker even though your family is in the house, right?
 
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