Mauricio Pochettino: Win or Bust?

AngeloHenriquez said:
I'm sorry but this really bad. Who have Spurs bought recently that you believe choose them over other clubs for any reason other than playing time? We broke the world record on a player who some of the top clubs in the world wanted and he choose us, that's the special draw. Also why do we have a "very decent chance of playing EL next season? We have spent more than before, have a better manager, yet it's a very decent chance? Spurs are holding onto their players better admittedly but you don't have a world superstar that other clubs would want, when you did (In Bale), he went straight away, while DDG stayed and renewed. Spurs are closer to United then they've been in a long time on the field, but every other avenue you aren't, and you are considered to be going through a good time and us an awful time, I think it's fair to say United are pretty special draw, even Nedved said today about wishing he played here..
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No, that's the special cheque book - a style of management that Mourinho knows very well.

As for the rest of your post, players come to Spurs for a variety of reasons, not just playing time. Some arrive because they see how well we develop young players, some arrive because of Pochettino, some arrive because they see Spurs as a club on the rise and want to be part of it, some arrive for a combination of these reasons plus the very decent wage being offered.
 
Sparky10Legend said:
Ok....Pogba/Zlatan/Miki/Di Maria/Falcao

NONE of which would have joined Spurs....so jog on Glaston. Now i understand why you are ridiculed at every turn.
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You confuse offering big money with still being a special draw as a club on a par with the likes of RM and Barca. The two things are not the same.

United's draw is now nowhere near that of Barca or RM ... absolutely nowhere near. So you can take your puffed-up delusions and use them to stuff cushions with.
 
GlastonSpur said:
You confuse offering big money with still being a special draw as a club. The two things are not the same.
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Big clubs offer big money. Surprising.
 
GlastonSpur said:
You confuse offering big money with still being a special draw as a club. The two things are not the same.
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In the absence of sworn affidavit from every player the FACT remains that we signed these top drawer players.....your last big signing was who?

Poch would walk to Old Trafford and anyone with any knowledge of football over the years would acknowledge that.

JUST LIKE the Southampton players who walked to the dippers, and Kante who was so desperate for CFC.
 
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GlastonSpur said:
No, that's the special cheque book - a style of management that Mourinho knows very well.

As for the rest of your post, players come to Spurs for a variety of reasons, not just playing time. Some arrive because they see how well we develop young players, some arrive because of Pochettino, some arrive because they see Spurs as a club on the rise and want to be part of it, some arrive for a combination of these reasons plus the very decent wage being offered.
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You don't answer the rest of the post at all, I asked for an example of someone who choose to join you over a bigger team, like I gave Pogba as an example. Agreed paying more is something that makes us have a special lure, that along with the legends who have played here previously, the amount we've won amongst other things. Players will only choose you over us because they feel they may get more playing time as you are weaker in said position. Spurs are on the rise and it's getting closer, if we both carried on our trajectories it may well even out but currently speaking I would say we are just under City with Chelsea as the more attractive place to go to in the PL.
 
GlastonSpur said:
You confuse offering big money with still being a special draw as a club on a par with the likes of RM and Barca. The two things are not the same.

United's draw is now nowhere near that of Barca or RM ... absolutely nowhere near. So you can take your puffed-up delusions and use them to stuff cushions with.
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He never claimed it was near Barca or RM? You seem to sensationalise other's points but take offense when they do it to you? You are also guessing that's the main reason they came here, I would wager it was a large factor, but even if we paid the same as Spurs paid, I believe a large majority of players would still rather join United, players would rather play for Mourinho than Pochettino, that's without mentioning the recent success of the last 10 years, the last 3-4 have been difficult, but I think players are aware that we are under performing while Spurs are over performing.
 
There is no chance that such a scenario is even being considered by Spurs top management. As long as Pochettino continues to do well in the premier league and have a decent showing in cup competition, he will continue to be backed with glowing support.

Finishing fourth with that squad is not an easy task, so that will already be a massive accomplishment. You have to look at the salaries of other top clubs and Spurs is not among them, so expectations can not be high for Pochettino when his players are not being paid world class salaries or he is not making world class signings.

Nevertheless, with all that considered, he is still doing well and should have had his first big accomplishment last season if Leciester was not so fortunate and other teams took them more seriously. If he keeps up these performances, I believe he will go to Spain, but I would rather have him here at United.
 
Sparky10Legend said:
In the absence of sworn affidavit from every player the FACT remains that we signed these top drawer players.....your last big signing was who?

Poch would walk to Old Trafford and anyone with any knowledge of football over the years would acknowledge that.

JUST LIKE the Southampton players who walked to the dippers, and Kante who was so desperate for CFC.
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Alderweireld - perhaps the best CB in the Prem. A big signing is not a big signing because big money is paid, it's a big signing if it fills a big hole in the first XI and the player proves to be a huge success. Just as Pogba does not become "top draw" just because you were to foolish enough to blow £90m + mega wages on him.

Poch walking to OT is your delusion. He's wouldn't abandon CL football at Spurs for Thursday night football at United ... far less swap his current squad for one that's not as good.

As for your equating a club like Spurs to S'hampton and Leicester City :wenger:
 
AngeloHenriquez said:
You don't answer the rest of the post at all, I asked for an example of someone who choose to join you over a bigger team, like I gave Pogba as an example. Agreed paying more is something that makes us have a special lure, that along with the legends who have played here previously, the amount we've won amongst other things. Players will only choose you over us because they feel they may get more playing time as you are weaker in said position. Spurs are on the rise and it's getting closer, if we both carried on our trajectories it may well even out but currently speaking I would say we are just under City with Chelsea as the more attractive place to go to in the PL.
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Bale, Gascoigne, Lineker.
 
GlastonSpur said:
In that case you might as well say that every club in the world apart from 4 or 5 are "small fry" ... in which case such words become devalued and meaningless.

I pity the snobbish world of imagined 'super elitism' that you must live in when it comes to football.
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I'm not being snobbish. By the key metric - trophies - Spurs are small fry. That's a fact, irrespective of the window dressing you wish to apply.
 
Sparky10Legend said:
Ok....Pogba/Zlatan/Miki/Di Maria/Falcao

NONE of which would have joined Spurs....so jog on Glaston. Now i understand why you are ridiculed at every turn.
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Yep you've had or have them all and the PL clubs have just been lambs to the slaughter in front of such immense quality.
 
GlastonSpur said:
Lol ... United are no longer the "special draw" you so fondly imagine. You've qualified just once for the CL in the last 3 seasons ... and even then you got dumped out at the first hurdle. And you're left now playing Thursday night football, with a very decent chance you'll be doing so again next season.

The last player sold to United by Spurs was Berbatov - ancient history now - but that was back in days when United could be called a special draw. Now you're just another club struggling for a top four finish, with your 4th manager in the last 4 years, yet desperate to prove your 'elite' credibility by throwing a world-record fee around on a distinctly under-whelming player.
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Mate, United are still one of the top teams in Europe, in or out of the Champions League. We won the league 4 seasons ago. Transition is a better way to describe us. We're not quite at desparation levels just yet. Out of interest, whens the last time Spurs won the league? And the fact we can still sign the biggest names in football proves that. Whether or not our signings in the last 3 or 4 years could be considered succussful they were still top draw, which proves in the eyes of those players we are a top club. Elite isny a word I like personally, but we're a big club, to try to argue anything to the contrary is just stupid.
 
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SirHenryPercy said:
Yep you've had or have them all and the PL clubs have just been lambs to the slaughter in front of such immense quality.
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Jeez, I'm staring to envisage what a successful Spurs would mean.

The point I was making. .....forget it. You know the point and that's why two top 4 finishes have given you delusions of grandeaur.

The funny thing is that you consider your 3 season results as amazing. ......whilst our managers would be sacked for such shit.
 
AngeloHenriquez said:
Also why do we have a "very decent chance of playing EL next season? We have spent more than before, have a better manager, yet it's a very decent chance? ..
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Because football isn't played paper. It's not that long ago the caf was filled with posts about how van Gaal was the best manager in the league and how di Maria and Falcao was going to tear the league up. Oops.

There is as tough competition as there has ever been for top four and so far you and Chelsea look the least impressive of the contenders. And you are not exactly building on solid foundation here either.

By the time you get your act together, assuming you do, it might well be too late to catch up.
 
Sparky10Legend said:
Jeez, I'm staring to envisage what a successful Spurs would mean.

The point I was making. .....forget it. You know the point and that's why two top 4 finishes have given you delusions of grandeaur.

The funny thing is that you consider your 3 season results as amazing. ......whilst our managers would be sacked for such shit.
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You just make it up as you go along.

When have we ever said our results are amazing? We are actually realistic about our past current and future, if anybody is deluded it's some of you with your denial that you aren't the force you were under Ferguson and are in danger of becoming the second club in a city of 2.
 
SirHenryPercy said:
You just make it up as you go along.

When have we ever said our results are amazing? We are actually realistic about our past current and future, if anybody is deluded it's some of you with your denial that you aren't the force you were under Ferguson and are in danger of becoming the second club in a city of 2.
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Yeah, Manchester United a second tier club.

Which makes you.......
 
This thread has quickly become a total disaster. We have gone from discussing whether Pochettino is under pressure to perform to now having pointless arguments again and again about whether Spurs is a big club.
 
SirHenryPercy said:
You just make it up as you go along.

When have we ever said our results are amazing? We are actually realistic about our past current and future, if anybody is deluded it's some of you with your denial that you aren't the force you were under Ferguson and are in danger of becoming the second club in a city of 2.
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I think Levy has been good for yous, he has balls and ambition. I think hes probably the reason Potch signed up on a big contract. I also think yous have steadily improved over the last 3 years, probably since Harry left Levys ambition can be felt. My question is if Potch doesnt win or get even closer again this season is he at risk of either not being able to fulfil his mission or being attracted elsewhere.
 
Green_Red said:
I think Levy has been good for yous, he has balls and ambition. I think hes probably the reason Potch signed up on a big contract. I also think yous have steadily improved over the last 3 years, probably since Harry left Levys ambition can be felt. My question is if Potch doesnt win or get even closer again this season is he at risk of either not being able to fulfil his mission or being attracted elsewhere.
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He might well be who knows, we could say the same about Klopp, maybe Pep decides he doesn't like England, Wenger will he do another year or is it his last, the way I see it is that every club is always in a hypothetical situation so better to deal with the now.
 
SirHenryPercy said:
He might well be who knows, we could say the same about Klopp, maybe Pep decides he doesn't like England, Wenger will he do another year or is it his last, the way I see it is that every club is always in a hypothetical situation so better to deal with the now.
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True
 
balaks said:
This thread has quickly become a total disaster. We have gone from discussing whether Pochettino is under pressure to perform to now having pointless arguments again and again about whether Spurs is a big club.
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There is something about Spurs threads on the caf at the moment. There are more even minded and logical discussions in the Liverpool threads (besides the RAWK one)
 
Red_Beans said:
There is something about Spurs threads on the caf at the moment. There are more even minded and logical discussions in the Liverpool threads (besides the RAWK one)
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I think if there is anything related to Spurs in the title of a thread it acts as a red rag to a bull of WUM's on redcafe and I fully include the WUM's from the Spurs side as well of which there are several.
 
I don't think he is under pressure. There are 3/4 clubs who are on paper meant to do better than Spurs and who for me have better players than them. United, Chelsea, City and Arsenal. At the start of the season I tipped them not to make the top 4 and it's going to be very tough this season. He's a very good young coach, I don't rate many of their players on an individual basis but he has got them playing well. Still think their attack could do with a bit more pace and directness in it. When it's Kane, Lamela, Eriksen and Dele Alli I feel like it's easier for teams to keep them in front of them and they have Walker and Rose playing key roles in their attack. But they've put in the performance of the season so far against City. Depending on how Unai Emery does in Europe the PSG job may open up for him. Kane and Dembele to come back which makes them a better team, Son and Kane both starting, they'll be there and there abouts again this season but for now I don't see a top 4 finish for them.
 
AngeloHenriquez said:
You don't answer the rest of the post at all, I asked for an example of someone who choose to join you over a bigger team, like I gave Pogba as an example. Agreed paying more is something that makes us have a special lure, that along with the legends who have played here previously, the amount we've won amongst other things. Players will only choose you over us because they feel they may get more playing time as you are weaker in said position. Spurs are on the rise and it's getting closer, if we both carried on our trajectories it may well even out but currently speaking I would say we are just under City with Chelsea as the more attractive place to go to in the PL.
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I don't believe players would choose Spurs over United though
 
Stacks said:
I don't believe players would choose Spurs over United though
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It really is incredible that every player in the world must first ask themselves 'will I get an offer from Manchester United' before even considering joining a vastly lesser team (i.e. any other team in the world). Am I right?
 
balaks said:
It really is incredible that every player in the world must first ask themselves 'will I get an offer from Manchester United' before even considering joining a vastly lesser team (i.e. any other team in the world). Am I right?
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Or is it simply between Spurs & United, they are more likely to choose us? You and Glaston seem to sensationalise to prove your point..
 
AngeloHenriquez said:
Or is it simply between Spurs & United, they are more likely to choose us? You and Glaston seem to sensationalise to prove your point..
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I'm just joking around my friend, don't get hung up on it. Some of the stuff spouted on this forum is deserving of ridicule.

To answer your question though I think it depends on the player really so it's a totally redundant argument to make - or we can go around in circles about it.

Would a young talented player go to Utd or Spurs? Dunno, he might think he has more chance of making it at Spurs so could decide to go there as a result, or he might not, maybe he does want to play for Man Utd so he goes there. You can't say with certainty that every player would want to play for Utd before Spurs because like I've already said there may be many reasons why players choose to play for a certain club over an other.
 
balaks said:
I'm just joking around my friend, don't get hung up on it. Some of the stuff spouted on this forum is deserving of ridicule.

To answer your question though I think it depends on the player really so it's a totally redundant argument to make - or we can go around in circles about it.

Would a young talented player go to Utd or Spurs? Dunno, he might think he has more chance of making it at Spurs so could decide to go there as a result, or he might not, maybe he does want to play for Man Utd so he goes there. You can't say with certainty that every player would want to play for Utd before Spurs because like I've already said there may be many reasons why players choose to play for a certain club over an other.
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I'm never quite sure :) As you said, some of the stuff is ridiculous here...

Of course it would have to differ per player, but there must be an average answer? I agree that a young player worrying about game time would go to Spurs rather than United, but surely that means he thinks he would more game time at the lesser team? No offense intended but if game time is your reason then you'd choose the weaker team as you have more chance of getting into it? Of course it's not 100%, I'm simply inferring the majority would, like the majority would choose Barcelona over us..
 
AngeloHenriquez said:
I'm never quite sure :) As you said, some of the stuff is ridiculous here...

Of course it would have to differ per player, but there must be an average answer? I agree that a young player worrying about game time would go to Spurs rather than United, but surely that means he thinks he would more game time at the lesser team? No offense intended but if game time is your reason then you'd choose the weaker team as you have more chance of getting into it? Of course it's not 100%, I'm simply inferring the majority would, like the majority would choose Barcelona over us..
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No offense taken but you could equally say that given the last few years could anybody say with certainty that Spurs are a weaker team than Utd? Were they last season? I'd argue no. Are they this season, again - although it's early days I'd still say no. So in the context of the current situation, which surely is more valid than giving a big influence to past glories (although we may differ on that point) - you may find that some players could view Spurs as the stronger team (or at least, a team of comparable strength to Utd).

Now going forward obviously we need to see what happens over the next few years and Spurs have much more to prove than Utd do to attract players in the future, but right now I'm sure there are many players who might view Spurs as an attractive proposition (or at least, as attractive a proposition as Utd) - the only real plus point Utd can rely on at the moment is a higher wages cap which of course will have a big influence on some players.

Before some folk get their knickers in a twist please note i'm talking about STRENGTH of club and not SIZE of club - Man Utd are a MUCH BIGGER CLUB than Spurs - I'm not arguing that.
 
Obviously players will choose Leicester city above all clubs in England.
 
roonster09 said:
Obviously players will choose Leicester city above all clubs in England.
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A one off season of success does not compare to a growth in strength over several seasons and the potential to improve further and challenge for titles - now having said that Leicester have undoubtably attracted players this season that they would not have attracted had they not won the league last season (probably).
 
balaks said:
A one off season of success does not compare to a growth in strength over several seasons and the potential to improve further and challenge for titles - now having said that Leicester have undoubtably attracted players this season that they would not have attracted had they not won the league last season (probably).
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Likewise spurs season. When was the last time spurs finished 3rd?

Obviously with the improvements made by spurs they will attract better quality players than before.
 
roonster09 said:
Likewise spurs season. When was the last time spurs finished 3rd?

Obviously with the improvements made by spurs they will attract better quality players than before.
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3rd - ages ago - but top 5/6 we have been becoming consistent in that regard, something Leicester cannot claim (they could of course manage that this season but they will need to start improving their results) - Like i said in the previous post, Spurs have a lot to prove in the coming seasons, something that the likes of Liverpool, Man Utd, etc. don't because of their history.
 
balaks said:
No offense taken but you could equally say that given the last few years could anybody say with certainty that Spurs are a weaker team than Utd? Were they last season? I'd argue no. Are they this season, again - although it's early days I'd still say no. So in the context of the current situation, which surely is more valid than giving a big influence to past glories (although we may differ on that point) - you may find that some players could view Spurs as the stronger team (or at least, a team of comparable strength to Utd).

Now going forward obviously we need to see what happens over the next few years and Spurs have much more to prove than Utd do to attract players in the future, but right now I'm sure there are many players who might view Spurs as an attractive proposition (or at least, as attractive a proposition as Utd) - the only real plus point Utd can rely on at the moment is a higher wages cap which of course will have a big influence on some players.

Before some folk get their knickers in a twist please note i'm talking about STRENGTH of club and not SIZE of club - Man Utd are a MUCH BIGGER CLUB than Spurs - I'm not arguing that.
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Fair point, good post.
 
IMO there are four super clubs. No need to list them. We know who they are, and they tick all of the boxes. Fanbase, history, trophies etc.

Behind that are a bunch of other clubs. Juve and the Milans are penalised because of the state of the Italian league but they are the next closest, along with Liverpool, to staking a claim for the biggest clubs.

Then there are a bunch of other clubs in the tier below. Can't be arsed to list them all.

Spurs IMO are in the next tier after this. I grew up in Tottenham so I have no axe to grind or an agenda. I like Spurs. The fact remains that one okay season (and it could easily be argued that last season was a massive missed opportunity) does not signal a shift any more than 3 underwhelming seasons at United does.

The fact that we out-trophied Spurs only highlights how big a gap there is when you look at the relative moods of both sets of fans. After all older cnuts like me still remember before this top 4 obsession was around and actual trophies were important.

In 5 years time with consistent improvement, a new stadium and (most importantly) trophies, then I think Spurs could certainly claim to have moved up a tier.
 
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