I'm not sure you're right. A season outside the top four, fan discontent, and a drop in revenue might be enough to sway the Glazers. By all accounts, they're hard-nosed businessmen and if my experience of American corporate culture is anything to go by, they won't tolerate mediocrity. I still for the life of me can't understand why we went for Moyes when we could have attracted any number of successful managers. If I had to guess, I'd say he fits the Glazer model perfectly. Thrifty with money, and able to manage a team without spending an arm and a leg. Getting in a Mourinho or a Guardiola type would mean more demands on the bank balance and perhaps not as much acquiescence to the owners or the board. Yer pays yer money and yer takes yer choice as they say.
Moyes So Far!
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
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I'm not sure you're right. A season outside the top four, fan discontent, and a drop in revenue might be enough to sway the Glazers. By all accounts, they're hard-nosed businessmen and if my experience of American corporate culture is anything to go by, they won't tolerate mediocrity. I still for the life of me can't understand why we went for Moyes when we could have attracted any number of successful managers. If I had to guess, I'd say he fits the Glazer model perfectly. Thrifty with money, and able to manage a team without spending an arm and a leg. Getting in a Mourinho or a Guardiola type would mean more demands on the bank balance and perhaps not as much acquiescence to the owners or the board. Yer pays yer money and yer takes yer choice as they say.
Get Di Canio in I say!
WIBBLE
WIBBLE
This place is fecking mad. Moyes isn't going anywhere.
No one said he was. But it's not exactly shocking to think that, in today's football world, he could find himself in some very dodgy territory if things don't pick up. . Carling cup or not, if we get knocked out on Wednesday, by Liverpool, things won't look too rosy already.
He'll be judged at the end of the season at the very earliest. Not in September.
Depends. If were languishing outside the top 4 in Jan, hell definitely be judged, whether its acted upon or not.
But well still finish 2nd or 3rd at worst. He might have started badly but thia squad is too good to do worse really. It's a brilliant squad.
Bloody hell... already? Come on guys.
To each his own, as they say. But I must say I find some of these reactions way over the top. Much of it also reads as the "See, I told you he was useless" responses of those who were firmly against the appointment and who have seemingly just waited for an opportunity to enter full meltdown mode. The whole bloody premise behind giving the job to a man who hasn't managed a huge club before is - of course - that he will grow into it. Not that he gets everything right from the get-go.
Being understandably disappointed and just plain pissed off with our performance against City is one thing. But I feel that some are just hellbent now on wallowing in misery, refusing to see an upside to anything. It's not healthy, you know. It ain't the end of the world. We're three points adrift of the teams that matter. Moyes has been on the job for a couple of months. It just isn't right and proper to be so bloody miserable.
I prefer to believe - and I don't think this is unreasonable - that he simply hasn't had the chance yet to field what will turn out to be our best team. When he does we will look a hell of a sight better than we did last night. There is zero sense in moping around, expecting the worst and reading every little sign as proof we're doomed.
If we actually fail to qualify for the CL, then I will join you in hysterical weeping - but there is, after all, a small chance this won't happen. Remember Brenton's words: A man can live on ten points, but only if he has hope - and a mentor, preferably himself, and so on. Cheer the feck up, lads.
Being understandably disappointed and just plain pissed off with our performance against City is one thing. But I feel that some are just hellbent now on wallowing in misery, refusing to see an upside to anything. It's not healthy, you know. It ain't the end of the world. We're three points adrift of the teams that matter. Moyes has been on the job for a couple of months. It just isn't right and proper to be so bloody miserable.
I prefer to believe - and I don't think this is unreasonable - that he simply hasn't had the chance yet to field what will turn out to be our best team. When he does we will look a hell of a sight better than we did last night. There is zero sense in moping around, expecting the worst and reading every little sign as proof we're doomed.
If we actually fail to qualify for the CL, then I will join you in hysterical weeping - but there is, after all, a small chance this won't happen. Remember Brenton's words: A man can live on ten points, but only if he has hope - and a mentor, preferably himself, and so on. Cheer the feck up, lads.
I think the players need to take a lot of the responsibility. I mean it's not Moyes' fault some are struggling to trap a bag of cement.
Spot on.
And would he have wanted that if he wasn't sure he was up to the task?
Define "up to the task". Although some of the reactions on Moyes' performance are definitely over the top, he still needs to produce. One critical quality a top manager needs is the ability to inspire an atmosphere of squad cohesion where the whole plays better than the sum of the parts. I don't think Moyes possesses this quality, at least, he has yet to demonstrate it at a top level, which of course was one of the concerns of those who didn't want him in the first place.
I'm more than happy to give him a chance, but he really needs to start getting things right. And soon.
I get that he has went with tried and tested through a tough run of early games, but he needs to give some of our more creative players a go in our more comfortable run coming up. The talents of Kagawa and Nani are being completely wasted at the minute.
I get that he has went with tried and tested through a tough run of early games, but he needs to give some of our more creative players a go in our more comfortable run coming up. The talents of Kagawa and Nani are being completely wasted at the minute.
Moyes clearly believes Nani and Kagawa haven't been quite up to scratch in terms of match fitness. Maybe he has been too cautious here, maybe he needs to adjust his "match fit" standard, it's hard to tell from the outside. But I see no reason to think he rates these players below Ashley Young and Valencia. I think he has gone with those two because he has deemed them safer options, not because he deems them better players. Again, one might question whether he has been too cautious - but cautiousness isn't equal to negativity or tactical ineptness for a man new in a job of this sort.
If he persists with fielding players who don't cut it and demonstrates that he doesn't actually think much of Nani and Kagawa - well, let's go mental. As for now, let's wait and see how he intends to use these players. I think he wants to incorporate both Nani and Kagawa - and that he realizes they offer something we definitely need.
If he persists with fielding players who don't cut it and demonstrates that he doesn't actually think much of Nani and Kagawa - well, let's go mental. As for now, let's wait and see how he intends to use these players. I think he wants to incorporate both Nani and Kagawa - and that he realizes they offer something we definitely need.
I was vocally opposed to the Moyes appointment, but not even I think there is even a remote possibility of us finishing outside the top four. Moyes isn't completely clueless, let's see what he can do from here, despite the not so encouraging signs.
The lack of changes to the squad in the summer is really the biggest issue here, no doubt that Moyes is a good manager but I just think the current crop of players apart from RVP, Rooney and Carrick just aren't good enough anymore to keep up with the likes of Chelsea and City.
I want to see Kagawa as much as anyone but he didn't look ready to start a game like this based on Leverkusen - he clearly gassed and dipped in the second.
In Moyes' defense, it was always going to be difficult for any manager coming in after Fergie.
That being said, rather than continuing with a successful formula, Moyes decides to bring in his entire backroom staff along with one of their 'key' players, whose level and expertise match that of a mid level club. Fair enough - he's in charge of the ship now. But no surprise then, when you then see the results of a team playing with a 'mid-table' mentality.
It's like someone whose driven a Mazda for their whole life, who's given the keys to an Aston Martin and playing it safe by driving in 2nd gear.
feck me, it's frustrating.
That being said, rather than continuing with a successful formula, Moyes decides to bring in his entire backroom staff along with one of their 'key' players, whose level and expertise match that of a mid level club. Fair enough - he's in charge of the ship now. But no surprise then, when you then see the results of a team playing with a 'mid-table' mentality.
It's like someone whose driven a Mazda for their whole life, who's given the keys to an Aston Martin and playing it safe by driving in 2nd gear.
feck me, it's frustrating.
This place is as bad as RAWK that we mock, more and more often these days.
Why didnt Nani play?
So far this season, it seems like we've been playing one of two ways:
1)sterile domination, with plenty of possession around the halfway line, but all passes going either sideways between midfield players, or straight up and down to a forward dropping deep (in other words, no penetration) or;
2)sitting deep with two banks of 4 + Rooney dropping in, hoping to hit sides on the counter attack.
Against Citeh, it's pretty clear Moyes wanted us to apply number 2), and we persisted that way after going 1-0 down. The goal right before half time probably killed any last hopes Moyes had of playing that way in the second half, and the goal right after definitely did it.
I actually think this wouldn't have been a bad way to play this derby, given the way Citeh like to get everybody forwards and on the ball. In fact in probably wouldn't be a bad way to go about any of our fixtures away at title rivals, who will be expected to bring the game to us. Our wingers, Valencia and Young, are also very suited to counter-attacking football, as are Rooney and Welbeck.
But there's one pretty massive problem with playing this way: you have to be extremely confident in your ability to defend. You're going to be under pressure for large periods of the match, the opposition will be getting crosses in, their fullbacks will be overlapping, they'll be getting shots away, and you'll be conceding set pieces. If you're not sure that your team is supremely well organised, it's actually very risky against quality opposition. Given how awful we were defensively today – fullbacks and wingers not communicating properly or getting back when play broke down, midfield players not tracking runners, Rio defending very passively, and generally rubbish defending on set pieces – I find it hard to believe that Moyes had good reason to think we'd be able to soak up that much pressure. We haven't been good defensively yet this season; I'm sure that will come when everybody understands the way the manager wants them to defend, but even I can see that this hasn't happened yet.
As far as 1) is concerned, it's pretty much the way we've played against weaker teams so far this season, and I think (as does everyone else) that's mostly a result of the team selection. When 3 out of 4 of our wide players are Young, Valencia and Smalling/Jones, our possession play is not going to be slick and dynamic, it's going to be rigid. Again, I think this selection would be ok away at title rivals if our plan was to counter-attack, with the pretty big caveat of being able to defend that I mentioned above. But selecting players like that when we expect to have most of the possession is really very difficult to understand. Moyes' only saving grace is that we haven't had many easy fixtures yet this season, but if he persists in selecting players that create absolutely nothing on the ball, and not using some of the better footballers that we have in our squad, I think it'll be much harder to stay patient with him.
1)sterile domination, with plenty of possession around the halfway line, but all passes going either sideways between midfield players, or straight up and down to a forward dropping deep (in other words, no penetration) or;
2)sitting deep with two banks of 4 + Rooney dropping in, hoping to hit sides on the counter attack.
Against Citeh, it's pretty clear Moyes wanted us to apply number 2), and we persisted that way after going 1-0 down. The goal right before half time probably killed any last hopes Moyes had of playing that way in the second half, and the goal right after definitely did it.
I actually think this wouldn't have been a bad way to play this derby, given the way Citeh like to get everybody forwards and on the ball. In fact in probably wouldn't be a bad way to go about any of our fixtures away at title rivals, who will be expected to bring the game to us. Our wingers, Valencia and Young, are also very suited to counter-attacking football, as are Rooney and Welbeck.
But there's one pretty massive problem with playing this way: you have to be extremely confident in your ability to defend. You're going to be under pressure for large periods of the match, the opposition will be getting crosses in, their fullbacks will be overlapping, they'll be getting shots away, and you'll be conceding set pieces. If you're not sure that your team is supremely well organised, it's actually very risky against quality opposition. Given how awful we were defensively today – fullbacks and wingers not communicating properly or getting back when play broke down, midfield players not tracking runners, Rio defending very passively, and generally rubbish defending on set pieces – I find it hard to believe that Moyes had good reason to think we'd be able to soak up that much pressure. We haven't been good defensively yet this season; I'm sure that will come when everybody understands the way the manager wants them to defend, but even I can see that this hasn't happened yet.
As far as 1) is concerned, it's pretty much the way we've played against weaker teams so far this season, and I think (as does everyone else) that's mostly a result of the team selection. When 3 out of 4 of our wide players are Young, Valencia and Smalling/Jones, our possession play is not going to be slick and dynamic, it's going to be rigid. Again, I think this selection would be ok away at title rivals if our plan was to counter-attack, with the pretty big caveat of being able to defend that I mentioned above. But selecting players like that when we expect to have most of the possession is really very difficult to understand. Moyes' only saving grace is that we haven't had many easy fixtures yet this season, but if he persists in selecting players that create absolutely nothing on the ball, and not using some of the better footballers that we have in our squad, I think it'll be much harder to stay patient with him.
His football is too defensive
He reminds me Hector Cuper
He reminds me Hector Cuper
Yep and neither are particularly interesting to watch, at least not the way we do it.
I don't know why were such a cautious team. At times I feel our tactics stifle our own players more than those on the other side. There needs to be a lesser focus on these "we will play THIS one way" and more emphasis on expansive and expressive football.
Amazing how fickle and short term memories football fans possess. We've lost 2 games this season, and drawn against Chelsea. Our performance against Liverpool was not particularly bad, or no worse than over the years. Chelsea set out their stall to stop us playing. Admittedly we lost convincingly yesterday. However, it's not been an uncommon theme for United to perform badly in individual games even during our Premiership winning seasons. Let's wait a season or two before analysing Moyes' tenure. The guy's been in charge of 6 games proper.
We have beaten all the weak teams we have played this season, and convincingly.
Swansea, Crystal Palace, and Leverkusen.
People have forgotten how we played for the majority of last season. The results were great but our playing style was very similar - slow build up and poor wing play. It was very much like how we're currently playing. This is still SAF's team playing out there. I think Moyes has looked at our tough start and felt it was wise to not rock the boat too much.
You can't expect him to fix all our problems in a couple of months. It'll take at least a couple of seasons for him to stamp his mark on the team and get them playing the way he wants.
You can't expect him to fix all our problems in a couple of months. It'll take at least a couple of seasons for him to stamp his mark on the team and get them playing the way he wants.
Couple of seasons? That's a bit much mate. No manager takes two whole seasons to make a team their own. Given the squad Moyes has, it should take him a lot lesser time than other managers too.
Agreed.
- SAF had started to get the best out of Kagawa near the end of last season. Moyes thinks otherwise and rather than get him match fit by giving him games to play, decides to play Young instead. Repeatedly.
- SAF used Giggsy sparingly last year, phasing him out of the team slowly, similar to what he did with Scholes. Moyes starts him in the first couple games.
Not rocking the boat much?
If Moyes needs a couple seasons to figure what his best team is, when the answer is quite obvious, my god, we're in for a hell of a ride.
Not every manager takes over from someone who has been at the club for 20+ years. Or takes over a team that strolled to the title but never really played good football as a cohesive unit. It's a unique situation with no real precedent to go on apart from when Busby retired.
Maybe two seasons is a bit extreme, but I certainly don't think it's fair to judge him on his first season.
His poor record against the top sides says alot about his tactics and negativety. If we have poor wingers why persist with them? Zaha doesn't merit even a few minutes?
The idea Moyes is frugal went straight out of the door when he paid £27m for Fellaini.
The idea Moyes is frugal went straight out of the door when he paid £27m for Fellaini.
Benitez had less time than Moyes and did well at Chelsea, even Grant got Chelsea to the CL final. The idea he needs more time to fashion the squad in his image is wrong. United big mistake was offering a six year deal, hope there is a break clause.
Not surprisingly, everything SAF did is going to be exaggerated when compared to poor old Moyes.
- I really don't think SAF managed to get the best out of Kagawa at all. He played him wide left and we saw tiny glimpses of his potential but nothing more. Moyes now has a fully fit Rooney as well, something SAF didn't have towards the end of last season.
- That's a real gem. The one thing fans loved criticising SAF for was constantly picking Giggs, now he's getting praised for not picking him! Moyes picked Giggs in his first two games and seems to have realised in two games that he's not up to it. He's not started him since and hasn't even made the bench in our last three games.
Are you being serious? It's no coincidence those two managers barely lasted a season. And we have Mourinho now openly saying he's trying to clean up Benitez's mess. You can go for short term glory or you can try and build something sustainable.I never thought I'd see the day when Benitez and Grant's spells at Chelsea were referred to as shining examples of managerial success.
God I'm embarrassed by some of our fans. Get over it, it was a loss, not the end of the world. We'll now go on a 10 game unbeaten run, city players won't play like that against anyone else and will drop points and Moyes will have learnt his lesson from this.
Don't get me wrong, I do hope Moyes gets it right, but sooner rather than later. I'm just worried that he risks alienating a lot of the players with some of the choices he makes as to who starts / who sits on the bench...
I hope he has. It's as follows:
1) Don't play Young.
2) Use Valencia less.
3) Use Evans more.
4) Rest Rio more.
5) Give Nani a chance.
6) Give Kagawa a chance.
If we as fans can see that, surely he who is being paid multimillion pounds a season to manage the squad should be able to see this as well and shouldn't require 3 heartless performances against our 3 biggest rivals to figure that out.
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