Moyes So Far!

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Moyes simply hasn't received much help since he's got here has he. Rooney saga for a welcome, then transfer shambles followed by players performing like squids, it's coming together like a perfect shitstorm. I hope he survives it.

I'm blaming the players so far. They're letting Moyes down like motherfeckers. Absolutely disgusting performances by people who clearly are capable of much more but seem to not want to put the effort in/don't give a flying feck.

If this continues Moyes should shake up the squad and boot the worst offenders. He has to show who's boss.
 
Count Orduck said:
If Moyes is struggling to get to know the team and club then maybe he shouldn't have sacked the entire fecking coaching staff when he arrived.
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Agree completely, that's the decision that has irked me most during his tenure. It's starting to look worse if this nonsense about not knowing the players is true.
 
Theon said:
Agree completely, that's the decision that has irked me most during his tenure. It's starting to look worse if this nonsense about not knowing the players is true.
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It would be understandable if the players took the decision to get rid of the coaching staff badly. If a new boss joined your company and sacked a load of your coworkers, I'm sure it would make you somewhat apprehensive.
 
Ramshock said:
Why can't we ask Rooney to drop back and play in a midfield three? How better would we be with his industry in the centre of the park instead of upfront?
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Because he'd throw a hissy fit again and we don't want to upset him. I agree it's something worth looking at, along with playing him out wide left when we're struggling for wingers. But he needs to be up for it.
 
The problem is Moyes has heard the fans wanting us to play like Fergie's boys, and he's gotten mixed up and has us playing like Darren, Mark and Jason.
 
Media loves this and you just know they will run a story tomorrow saying "Moyes facing the sack"
 
Commadus said:
Rubbish. No one is saying that. Don't make a straw man argument.

I maintain Moyes should have minimised the coaching changes, concentrated on the playing staff, its no wonder he's still saying im still learning as all his backroom staff are still learning.

The reference to Apple was clear, it was about a well edecuted succession plan. United was not, we lost our manager, chief scout, chief exec and backroom staff at once.
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Again you refer to Rene. Don't tell me you would've been hugely critical of any other change if he had remained as Moyes' assistant manager? He let Steele go - he's a keeper trainer. De Gea liked him. That's nice - but he's a keeper trainer who has been replaced by a man who is, by all accounts, a very competent trainer who has top level experience to boot that Steele can't match at all. And De Gea hasn't looked too shabby of late, has he? I wouldn't say he is the prime concern here.

He has brought in Round and Phil. The latter is a United man. The former is Moyes' man, the one you could dismiss as a "comfort" assignment, which would be somewhat stupid, though, as it is virtually unprecedented that a new manager doesn't take anyone with him. He has made Giggs a coach, a man who represents a winning culture and the continuation of said culture more than anyone. He wanted to hire Scholes too - but he wanted a break, and might very well be back on staff before too long.

Your Apple analogy is not apt for two reasons: Moyes hasn't thrown out all the experience at all. And a football club isn't run like a computer firm. Not even close.

If Rene Meulson or Millhouse had been an ideal assistant manager - then, yes, by all means, it would've been a bad move on Moyes' part not to insist on him staying on. But he wasn't. And the idea that Moyes has thrown out everyone who contributed to our success under Fergie is misleading at best. We don't even know to what extent these people did contribute. Which is why I asked to you ponder the factor that is Fergie himself. Did you think it would be seamless, this thing? That replacing the greatest manager ever would be a walk in the park? There is no precedent here. On some levels a football club is just another business these days. On others it thankfully isn't. What Pep or anyone else in football has done elsewhere doesn't compare at all, though it's far more relevant than what happened when Steve bloody Jobs stepped down.
 
I don't think it bodes well when Phil Neville is coaching the likes of Rooney, Evra, Rio, Vidic, Giggs, and the rest.

It may have worked 5 - 10 years for now, but with the current history, Phil can't even get a spot and have to move to Everton. How do you think he commands the respect of the senior player (not belittling Phil or anything, but it comes naturally, how can you respect players you know were just behind you in every department).

And it's not like Phil is that much older than most of the squad, some of them even have played with him prior
 
Chesterlestreet said:
Again you refer to Rene. Don't tell me you would've been hugely critical of any other change if he had remained as Moyes' assistant manager? He let Steele go - he's a keeper trainer. De Gea liked him. That's nice - but he's a keeper trainer who has been replaced by a man who is, by all accounts, a very competent trainer who has top level experience to boot that Steele can't match at all. And De Gea hasn't looked too shabby of late, has he? I wouldn't say he is the prime concern here.

He has brought in Round and Phil. The latter is a United man. The former is Moyes' man, the one you could dismiss as a "comfort" assignment, which would be somewhat stupid, though, as it is virtually unprecedented that a new manager doesn't take anyone with him. He has made Giggs a coach, a man who represents a winning culture and the continuation of said culture more than anyone. He wanted to hire Scholes too - but he wanted a break, and might very well be back on staff before too long.

Your Apple analogy is not apt for two reasons: Moyes hasn't thrown out all the experience at all. And a football club isn't run like a computer firm. Not even close.

If Rene Meulson or Millhouse had been an ideal assistant manager - then, yes, by all means, it would've been a bad move on Moyes' part not to insist on him staying on. But he wasn't. And the idea that Moyes has thrown out everyone who contributed to our success under Fergie is misleading at best. We don't even know to what extent these people did contribute. Which is why I asked to you ponder the factor that is Fergie himself. Did you think it would be seamless, this thing? That replacing the greatest manager ever would be a walk in the park? There is no precedent here. On some levels a football club is just another business these days. On others it thankfully isn't. What Pep or anyone else in football has done elsewhere doesn't compare at all, though it's far more relevant than what happened when Steve bloody Jobs stepped down.
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The thing is, Phil + Giggs is nothing than an unproven newbie amateur coach at this rate. Sure he's the most decorate player ever, but coaching and playing is too different thing

We already have a step down from SAF to Moyes to bear with at the moment, and having a step down in the first team coaches into a mere "New to the job" coach is a little bit too much for United to take.

Moyes himself has yet to proven how much of a step down he is from SAF, but Phil, Giggs and Round are "DEFINITELY" a huge step down from what we previously have under SAF
 
Sky1981 said:
The thing is, Phil + Giggs is nothing than an unproven newbie amateur coach at this rate. Sure he's the most decorate player ever, but coaching and playing is too different thing

We already have a step down from SAF to Moyes to bear with at the moment, and having a step down in the first team coaches into a mere "New to the job" coach is a little bit too much for United to take.

Moyes himself has yet to proven how much of a step down he is from SAF, but Phil, Giggs and Round are "DEFINITELY" a huge step down from what we previously have under SAF
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Alright, then - let's go along with that. What do you want? Moyes needs an AM - who does he go for? He can't have Rene, that isn't viable - he just isn't suitable for that kind of job. He has pretty much said as much himself. Moyes goes with his old AM. Who should he have gone for, then?
 
Chesterlestreet said:
Alright, then - let's go along with that. What do you want? Moyes needs an AM - who does he go for? He can't have Rene, that isn't viable - he just isn't suitable for that kind of job. He has pretty much said as much himself. Moyes goes with his old AM. Who should he have gone for, then?
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How bout keeping Rene for a change? 2 Assistant Manager? I'm sure his old AM can handle being a first team coach since it is a step up from Everton to United, and let's face it, it's not much of a humiliation coming 2nd to a more successful coach than you.

Moyes never offered Rene the AM post, he simply politely asking him to leave, which is what irks me. He could have at least given Rene a benefit of doubt, I really doubt people like him can't appreciate the professionalism of knowing who's the boss at the end of the day.

But come on.. let's get real... we got 2 amateur coaches coaching us at the moment, in addition to losing 2 of a highly regarded coach (and 1 hell of a manager)
 
Sky1981 said:
I don't think it bodes well when Phil Neville is coaching the likes of Rooney, Evra, Rio, Vidic, Giggs, and the rest.

It may have worked 5 - 10 years for now, but with the current history, Phil can't even get a spot and have to move to Everton. How do you think he commands the respect of the senior player (not belittling Phil or anything, but it comes naturally, how can you respect players you know were just behind you in every department).

And it's not like Phil is that much older than most of the squad, some of them even have played with him prior
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This is...look, take a step back and consider this argument. We have, say, Van Persie on our books. Needless to say he won't respect anyone who was a player below his own level as a coach. We need to hire Van Basten, at the very least. In order to achieve anything of note, though, we probably have to bring in a team of Fat Ronaldo, Romario and Pele himself - just to make sure.
 
I don't know how people can justify judge coaches and their training methods. Unless you go to Carrington every day how on earth would you know how good a coach is or isn't?
 
Sky1981 said:
How bout keeping Rene for a change? 2 Assistant Manager? I'm sure his old AM can handle being a first team coach since it is a step up from Everton to United, and let's face it, it's not much of a humiliation coming 2nd to a more successful coach than you.

Moyes never offered Rene the AM post, he simply politely asking him to leave, which is what irks me. He could have at least given Rene a benefit of doubt, I really doubt people like him can't appreciate the professionalism of knowing who's the boss at the end of the day.

But come on.. let's get real... we got 2 amateur coaches coaching us at the moment, in addition to losing 2 of a highly regarded coach (and 1 hell of a manager)
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For Christ's sake - it wasn't to be: Rene and Moyes is not a viable option. Can we get past this?
 
Chesterlestreet said:
This is...look, take a step back and consider this argument. We have, say, Van Persie on our books. Needless to say he won't respect anyone who wasn't a player below his own level as a coach. We need to hire Van Basten, at the very least. In order to achieve anything of note, though, we probably have to bring in a team of Fat Ronaldo, Romario and Pele himself - just to make sure.
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Honestly, what has Phil, Giggs done to merit coaching a successful team like United? They have proven nothing on coaching level.

Enough of this winning mentality, if Moyes have to resort to Giggs to instil a winning mentality, he's not the right man for the job.

You can allow 1 new comers to learn the trait, the rest of the coaching department can carry this new guy for a while, but when you shook the foundation by removing substantial of influence, this is what bound to happen.

I'm sorry, I wish United can offer seasons for Moyes to find his ground, but I'm really afraid he would be our Souness.

It's not about Being a better striker than RvP, it's about being technically proven that you are qualified to coach, and that alone is a different thing to playing altogether.
 
Sixpence said:
I don't know how people can justify judge coaches and their training methods. Unless you go to Carrington every day how on earth would you know how good a coach is or isn't?
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Plus someone's playing ability has no bearing on their coaching ability.
 
Sixpence said:
I don't know how people can justify judge coaches and their training methods. Unless you go to Carrington every day how on earth would you know how good a coach is or isn't?
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Well off course we can safely assume that a coach with 10+ years of experience is better than a fresh out of the retirement coach, at least until proven otherwise
 
Sixpence said:
I don't know how people can justify judge coaches and their training methods. Unless you go to Carrington every day how on earth would you know how good a coach is or isn't?
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We don't. We don't know a bloody thing about it. And we know less than a bloody thing about how the actual people who feature in these absurdly theoretical set-ups would work together as part of a managerial team in - you know - real life.
 
Sky1981 said:
Honestly, what has Phil, Giggs done to merit coaching a successful team like United? They have proven nothing on coaching level.

Enough of this winning mentality, if Moyes have to resort to Giggs to instil a winning mentality, he's not the right man for the job.

You can allow 1 new comers to learn the trait, the rest of the coaching department can carry this new guy for a while, but when you shook the foundation by removing substantial of influence, this is what bound to happen.

I'm sorry, I wish United can offer seasons for Moyes to find his ground, but I'm really afraid he would be our Souness.

It's not about Being a better striker than RvP, it's about being technically proven that you are qualified to coach, and that alone is a different thing to playing altogether.
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Because of course Meulensteen had proven himself as a top level coach before we hired him.
 
Sky1981 said:
Honestly, what has Phil, Giggs done to merit coaching a successful team like United? They have proven nothing on coaching level.

Enough of this winning mentality, if Moyes have to resort to Giggs to instil a winning mentality, he's not the right man for the job.

You can allow 1 new comers to learn the trait, the rest of the coaching department can carry this new guy for a while, but when you shook the foundation by removing substantial of influence, this is what bound to happen.

I'm sorry, I wish United can offer seasons for Moyes to find his ground, but I'm really afraid he would be our Souness.

It's not about Being a better striker than RvP, it's about being technically proven that you are qualified to coach, and that alone is a different thing to playing altogether.
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Then give me alternatives. Who should Moyes have hired? This is bollocks and you know it. You don't think Moyes can cut it, period. It doesn't matter who his staff is - it's him you have a problem with.
 
So what's the problem? Is it lack of motivation, which maybe can be laid at the feet of the manager. Or is it personnel? We won the league last year, but the other teams have arguably strengthened more than we have. Is the manager to blame for that?

The players in the team today should have been able to beat WBA even at their place, let alone ours.

Does it just come down to teamwork, and the team currently not being anything like a cohesive unit?
 
Chesterlestreet said:
Then give me alternatives. Who should Moyes have hired? This is bollocks and you know it. You don't think Moyes can cut it, period. It doesn't matter who his staff is - it's him you have a problem with.
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Tell me where do I get it wrong?

Giggs is unproven in coaching department, so does Phil

What is so wrong about stating the obvious facts that we are much poorer in the coaching department? Should have, could have, better off, but the fact remains the same, we are weaker in the coaching department now compared to last year.
 
Livvie said:
So what's the problem? Is it lack of motivation, which maybe can be laid at the feet of the manager. Or is it personnel? We won the league last year, but the other teams have arguably strengthened more than we have. Is the manager to blame for that?

The players in the team today should have been able to beat WBA even at their place, let alone ours.

Does it just come down to teamwork, and the team currently not being anything like a cohesive unit?
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To be fair to Moyes, any teams at top level football would stutter having 3 main components of the play having a nightmare at the same time in the same game.

Buttner, Rio, Anderson having a bad game is enough to disrupt the whole flow of the team, and it reflects clearly that our best chances comes from individual brilliance and our goal is scored from a free kick.

It could have been a one off freakish incident, but apparently, the 4-0 thumping, 0-0 against Chelsea, and the 1-0 loss at Liverpool, today's lost can't come at the worst time.

If we have this blip amidst a couple of win, I'm sure we can shrug it off as bad day.
 
Sky1981 said:
Tell me where do I get it wrong?

Giggs is unproven in coaching department, so does Phil

What is so wrong about stating the obvious facts that we are much poorer in the coaching department? Should have, could have, better off, but the fact remains the same, we are weaker in the coaching department now compared to last year.
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You didn't answer the question. I'm telling you that neither Moyes nor Rene regarded the latter being Moyes' sidekick as a viable option. So, who then? And who would you like to replace Phil and Giggs with? Do you have any insight in these matters - or are you just moaning?
 
u really think that after more than 25 years being coached, Ryan Giggs has not learn everything he need to know to be a good coach?


all that is happening is Moyes 100% responsability, for good or bad.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
Then give me alternatives. Who should Moyes have hired? This is bollocks and you know it. You don't think Moyes can cut it, period. It doesn't matter who his staff is - it's him you have a problem with.
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The only alternative would have been Moyes not insisting on taking the training himself and keeping Rene on in the same role. It could have been a good option, whatever Rene was doing was clearly working, and Sir Alex has said that he was able to observe far more when he decided to stop taking the training himself and felt it ultimately made him a better manager.
 
George Owen said:
u really think that after more than 25 years being coached, Ryan Giggs has not learn everything he need to know to be a good coach?
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Rene has been coached and coach for longer than Giggs, by that rationale he is still a more experienced and perceived as a better options.

Whether or not we can keep him or who's decision it is that makes him quit the fact remains the same : Giggs and Phil is still a step down until proven otherwise.
 
Can we shrug it off as merely a bad day when our play this season has been generally poor, listless and apparently lacking attacking decisiveness? I feel the job is too much for Moyes - simple as that.

SAF asked for support for Moyes, but that means trying to dredge up some enthusiasm for crap football. Ain't gonna happen...
 
mickeza said:
The only alternative would have been Moyes not insisting on taking the training himself and keeping Rene on in the same role. It could have been a good option, whatever Rene was doing was clearly working, and Sir Alex has said that he was able to observe far more when he decided to stop taking the training himself and felt it ultimately made him a better manager.
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Fergie had reached that point after a quarter of a century in the job. Yes, it would have been just about ideal if we could have replaced him with...himself - but that was never a very likely option, was it?
 
Sky1981 said:
Rene has been coached and coach for longer than Giggs, by that rationale he is still a more experienced and perceived as a better options.

Whether or not we can keep him or who's decision it is that makes him quit the fact remains the same : Giggs and Phil is still a step down until proven otherwise.
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Indeed. So, to be blunt - what are you sobbin' for? We're a handful of matches into their first season on the job.
 
Let's not paint it as if SAF is leaving a dysfunctional and declining team and he quit at the right time.

It's not even a season and some already made it as if SAF has foreseen this, the man has given his all for United
 
Chesterlestreet said:
Fergie had reached that point after a quarter of a century in the job. Yes, it would have been just about ideal if we could have replaced him with...himself - but that was never a very likely option, was it?
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He reached the point at Aberdeen when Archie Knox suggested it to him, and he said it made him a better manager. I have no idea what your last point is about, Ferguson isn't the only top manager who doesn't take a hands on role in training, in fact I think Moyes is probably in the minority. I'm not even saying what Moyes has done is the wrong option, I'm merely suggesting there most definitely was an alternative.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
Indeed. So, to be blunt - what are you sobbin' for? We're a handful of matches into their first season on the job.
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Nothing, Moyes may be the right man for the job, he may or may not.

But the fact remains, our performance so far has not been up to scratch.

That's the only point I'm making, you can back him up all you want, and you can view my posts as shooting him down, it really depends on the perspective. But the fact remains we're in a very ugly form at the moment, and let's not sugar coat it in any other way.
 
mickeza said:
He reached the point at Aberdeen when Archie Knox suggested it to him, and he said it made him a better manager. I have no idea what your last point is about, Ferguson isn't the only top manager who doesn't take a hands on role in training, in fact I think Moyes is probably in the minority. I'm not even saying what Moyes has done is the wrong option, I'm merely suggesting there most definitely was an alternative.
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The point is exceedingly simple: If you want to hire a manager for the job who doesn't take a hands-on approach to everyday training, you don't hire David Moyes. Who does just that, as everybody knows. Including Sir Alex Ferguson, who is and remains the main reason Moyes got the job in the first place.
 
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