Our attack being reliant on our two best attackers is perfectly natural. At least its nothing like arsenal who seem to be reliant on van persie to a ridiculous extent.
Nani
- Thread starter Kaush949
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
If you asked most people about our performances since the Chelsea game, I'd say 90% would say we have looked very poor. Now if you are saying that our performances at the start of the season were no better, or that we only looked better due to poor opposition. Then in my mind that is saying we have been poor all season. Unless of course you think we have been very good the last 8-9 games?
I agree that our defence has been much, much more solid. But I think that has solely been down to the return of the best defender in the world. It's no coincidence that the last 5 games Vidic has featured in have all been clean sheets, whilst the game he hasn't during the same period we conceded 6.
If Vidic was fit at the start of the season we'd have been far more solid defensively, whilst being great going forward.
/edit: Goals conceded per game with Vidic starting: 0.43
Goals conceded per game without Vidic staring: 1.14
Swansea missed an open goal which would have gained them a point. Everton could easily have gotten 3 points in reality, if not for Vidic' heroics they'd have got them (or certainly a draw). Sunderland was an awful performances, although we deserved the win because they are inept attacking wise. We were very lucky to get the point vs Basel and we edged cagey matches against a Romanian team full of part-timers.
Maybe we deserved to win some of the games, but we have been poor in all of them and saving the opposition being equally poor we'd have dropped several points.
Still Pogue finds it tough to praise Nani eh?
Fact is, the lad along with Rooney is our best attacker and considering we put so much emphasis on wing-play, we really don't look like the same team when he's off form.
Fact is, the lad along with Rooney is our best attacker and considering we put so much emphasis on wing-play, we really don't look like the same team when he's off form.
Strange how this has gone from reliance on our best players to some nonsense about our early season form.
Some things never change.
Some things never leave either. More's the pity.
You'd call it poor... I'd call it just doing enough. This game against Swansea was a perfect example really. We coasted throught that game in third gear, and were always in pretty much complete control... even if Sinclar had scored, that was still in the first half... I think we could have relied upon the players out there to bring it up a gear and grab a second goal. As for Everton, the quality of our defending made us full value for the 3 points... your Sunderland summation was accurate, and as you said, we were better (maybe not convincingly, but still better) then Otelul on both occasions. I'd say to say we were "lucky" to win all of those games is being extremely harsh... we were good value on all occassions, as we just did enough.
With about 10 postings in the last three months, I'm not exactly ubiquitous. Failed attack.
Shouldn't "our best attacker" have been playing like it for more than just the opening few games of the season?
There's no doubt that when Nani's at his best he's a fantastic player but he's still inconsistent (no matter how much people argue otherwise) and has been below par for quite a few games on the trot now. Furthermore, when he's not on his game he can actually be our weakest link in the final third of the pitch (as we saw at the weekend) which really isn't what you expect from a player who's being talked up as one of only two shining lights we have in an attacking sense.
I don't know why he's gone off the boil so much but I'm glad we have more options out wide this season than last. Fergie might decide to give Nani a break soon and give the Valencia/Young combo a go. On current form, I don't think we'll lose anything if he does. In fact, it might give us the attacking edge that's been lacking in our last couple of league games.
I think there is absolutely no doubt that he is by far our best attacker normally alongside erooney, who can be damn "inconsistent" as well tbh. And our poor offensive play has much to do with those two not either not playing at their best and rooney playing too deep
Christ on a bike, you have lost the plot if you really believe that.
What's your problem with him? You constantly praise Valencia and Young who are inferior players and not nearly as consistent as him.
Hell, Rooney is less consistent than him too.
And yet you think the sun shines out of Rooney's arse Pogue, Rooney is one of the most inconsistent players around, a true purple patch player.
If Rooney wasn't inconsistent up top, the idea of moving him into CM which many a car member loves, wouldn't even be considered for a single second.
It'll always be the way with Pogue, there's something about Nani that he just doesn't find "likable".
Guess it goes for most of us though, we all have our favorites. I love Nani's style of play, and I'm more likely to give him the benefit of the doubt. I don't at all enjoy the way Fletcher plays the game or what he has to offer and therefore I'm much harsher on him.
Eh? You think he's been consistently good this season?
If you do, then the only person in this thread losing the plot is you.
What is it with Nani anyway? The way some of ye take umbrage at the merest hint of criticism I'd be better off posting cartoons of Mohammed than taking Nani's name in vain. Very strange.
So far this season I'd say Young has been pretty close to Nani in terms of overall effectiveness/form. It's actually noticeable that both of them seem to to have had a dip in form at around the same time (not helped by injury, in the case of Young) Which hasn't helped us at all.
As for Valencia, he's definitely been poor, although he's been constantly shunted between wing and full-back, which hasn't helped. Good cameo off the bench on Saturday, mind you.
Who's the most naturally talented of the three of them? Nani, obviously. Who's the most unplayable at his best? Again, Nani.
Of course this shouldn't make it sacrilege to suggest the other two are excellent alternative options and deserve a run-out in his place when Nani's not on form. Which is exactly what happened in the back end of last season, when Valencia came back into the side ahead of Nani and helped give us a real impetus towards winning the title.
Should I say 10 Hail Mary's now?
Rooney's definitely inconsistent. Especially after an injury. Takes him fecking ages to get going again. Which is very frustrating.
I'd be a lot more reluctant to drop Rooney than Nani though. Rooney really is our talisman. I don't think Nani is as important a member of the team.
I'd call Nani inconsistent too I just don't bother saying as much because it does seem to genuinely enrage people - yes people, not just you cina - at times. Very few wingers in the game that can be called consistent mind, and that's made abundantly clear when you acknowledge that Giggs was known for being inconsistent for pretty much all of his career despite having so many more assists than anyone else to play in the Premier League.
Is it just me or is nani just trying to hard to score when he usually is super effective with just putting good crosses in...
It depends what your definition of consistant is I guess. He has been our best attacking player as a whole from Feb-March of the 09-10 season (when Rooney got injured) up until this point. To me that means he is very consistant.
However on a game by game/minute by minute basis he can still blow hot and cold, but I think this is true of every winger in the world. If you were to pick our best player month by month from the aforementioned date in my opinion he'd win the vote... Comfortably in my opinion.
I think the obvious compliment is his nomination for the Ballon D'or.
However on a game by game/minute by minute basis he can still blow hot and cold, but I think this is true of every winger in the world. If you were to pick our best player month by month from the aforementioned date in my opinion he'd win the vote... Comfortably in my opinion.
I think the obvious compliment is his nomination for the Ballon D'or.
What?
Let's not bother going back to 09-10. Let's start a bit more recently, with 2011.
You think he was our best player this October? Is he going to be our best player this November?
How about the back end of last season. Was he really our best player in March, April, May? He was dropped for all our most important games, for crying out loud.
EDIT: Unless I've misunderstood your point and you meant if you totted up all the hypothetical "player of the month" awards he'd have won the most over that period of time? If that's what you mean, I'd still have Rooney and Vidic ahead of him. Arguably Giggs too.
Of course not, but that's this season where bugger all of our players have actually been consistent, at least our attackers anyway. The 18 months before that, other than the latter end of last season after that awful Carragher tackle, he was definitely our most consistent attacking player, his assists and goals ratio was one per game or something mental like that.
Almost every player is bound to have inconsistent spells, bar R&M obviously, but I think Nani has far less of them than others do.
And there's nothing wrong with slight criticism, when he performs poorly like on Saturday I'm usually one of the first to point it out, but you're being really overly harsh and always have been. And of course, yet again you bring up the 6 or 7 games last season where Valencia was really good, and Nani was poor after that awful tackle. Big whoop.
I'm not arguing about the fact that Young and Valencia are 2 excellent options to have, we have arguably the best wing options in the league but that doesn't negate the fact that Nani is really important to the team and when he's not on his best form we do struggle, same as Rooney.
I find it laughable Pogue that you have this opinion that I'm overly defensive of Nani yet as soon as someone makes a diss at Carrick you call them a Ihni binni dimi diniwiny anitaime or what not. Everyone has their favourite players and everyone defends these players more than others will so I do not see any problem in me doing so.
You'd be hard pressed to find wingers more consistent than Nani. His record over the past season or 2 speaks for itself. the thing with true wingers is that they depend on their strikers to an extent. Nani could put in a brilliant cross but if the striker fails to make the near post run or misses a sitter, it wont show up on the record. Which is why i've always been against judging wingers solely on their number of assists or goals. Unless you're a winger that cuts in to his stronger foot and operates more through the middle in the final third, there will always be a dependency when it comes to stats. All of that considered, nani still has brilliant numbers.
As a winger, Nani is on the money 7 games out of 10. Considering we have Valencia as a back up, its a fantastic return. The thing with nani though, and the reason why posters here want to see him start unless really off form for an extended period is that he's capable of that moment of magic that few players in our squad are. take the goal vs chelsea for example. it was out of nowhere. the international vs bosnia recently too. nani is a player capable of winning matches on his own. Valencia, very good as he is, isnt capable of that.
We look a much better side with nani in it. his consistency or his record isnt in question imo. that said, ofcourse he should be benched if he doesnt perform for games on the trot, we have more than an able backup in Valencia.
The "rooney cannot be dropped but nani can" is solely because we have valencia as cover for nani but not a striker close to as good as rooney. nothing else. take valencia out of the squad and nani would be undroppable unless injured or when he needs a rest. that isnt a slight on rooney. just an indicator of the fact that we have great backup when it comes to our right wing slot.
As a winger, Nani is on the money 7 games out of 10. Considering we have Valencia as a back up, its a fantastic return. The thing with nani though, and the reason why posters here want to see him start unless really off form for an extended period is that he's capable of that moment of magic that few players in our squad are. take the goal vs chelsea for example. it was out of nowhere. the international vs bosnia recently too. nani is a player capable of winning matches on his own. Valencia, very good as he is, isnt capable of that.
We look a much better side with nani in it. his consistency or his record isnt in question imo. that said, ofcourse he should be benched if he doesnt perform for games on the trot, we have more than an able backup in Valencia.
The "rooney cannot be dropped but nani can" is solely because we have valencia as cover for nani but not a striker close to as good as rooney. nothing else. take valencia out of the squad and nani would be undroppable unless injured or when he needs a rest. that isnt a slight on rooney. just an indicator of the fact that we have great backup when it comes to our right wing slot.
So we all agree they are our two best attackers?
Good to know.
So if Rooney is inconsistent as well, then why are we talking about nani's inconsistencies when the debate originated with how influential he is to our attack, given everyone will acknowledge that Rooney is one of, if not our most influential player.
Good to know.
So if Rooney is inconsistent as well, then why are we talking about nani's inconsistencies when the debate originated with how influential he is to our attack, given everyone will acknowledge that Rooney is one of, if not our most influential player.
Rooney is inconsistent as many times he is shunted around the place. Nani is adept on either wing I'm not sure if he prefers one wing over the other but perhaps when he is on the left wing he does have a tendency to cut inside more.
Good post. Nani is the player most likely to rip a team apart through his own sheer brilliance. His ability to run with the ball is unmatched. On the other hand, Rooney's ability to drive us, completeness and his football brain is unmatched as well. Others have good qualities as well but these two give us an added dimension of penetration that others don't.
I don't know this is even being debated, you tards.
Because some folks just don't really like him.
Folks who are usually rather sensible on these boards.
Because Rooney is more influential than Nani. A lot more influential. Even when he's not at his best, you're more likely to get a positive influence on the game from Rooney than you are from Nani.
Saturday's game being a good example, with Rooney putting Hernandez through on goal with a brilliant pass and generally using the ball reasonably well (59/64 passes completed - 92%) in a game where the consensus seems to be that he was poor.
Nani, on the other hand, faffed about on the wing repeatedly conceding possession (30/45 passses complete - 67%) and generally being a complete waste of space. When Nani's not at his best his presence, if anything, weakens our team. The same isn't true for Rooney.
All of which means, in terms of really important, influential attacking players we've got Rooney >>>>> everyone else. Nani's probably just ahead of the pack but not by as much as some people seem to think. We're nowhere near as dependent on him as you'd think from some of the recent comments in this thread.
Jaysus, why does everything need to spelt out, piece by agonising piece, to some of ye lot?
Rooney is inconsistent even when he isn't shunted around. He never goes a full season in great form, he has purple patches, always has done. It's the reason he isn't put up there with Ronaldo and Messi.
Saturday isn't a great example. I've seen many a game where Rooney's shite form weakens our team and he can't pass piss. It's as though you've completely forgotten about the start of last season Pogue.
I completely disagree with this notion, both players can weaken the team when playing shite, both have the ability to win a game when playing shite.
Our 2 most important attacking players basically as I said when this discussion started.
I haven't forgotten the start of last season but - looking at Rooney's United career as a whole - it was a real anomaly. Very unusual for him to be that poor, for that long. The reasons why became apparent over time and they had very little to do with his ability as a footballer.
In every other season of his United career, including this one, even a below par Rooney is an incredibly influential player for us. Even when he's not creating/scoring goals he's making things happen with his work-rate and desire. Only Ronaldo's been more influential over the last few years. Since Ronaldo left, Rooney's out on his own.
Your EDIT is correct. You could put forward an argument for Vidic, but Giggs doesn't play enough to consistantly win "monthly" awards and Rooney has been injured or out of form for a lot over the selected period. I'd have Nani comfortably, particularly March 09 - maybe March 11 where he was brilliant.
He hasn't been great since October, but to be fair the team as a whole has been woeful, although he has been a particular disappointment.
Exactly right.
Exactly right.
I always hope he scores early in the game. Once he gets his goal he transforms into unselfish player.
An off form Rooney is still played because we dont have anyone close to his quality as backup. In nani's case, we have valencia. as i said, it isnt a slight on him or an indicator that an off form Rooney is still a great player, he isnt. for a player of his quality, his lowest ebbs are shockingly low. Its just that our squad is better equipped to handle an off form Nani, an off form rooney cannot be replaced with what we have at our disposal.
Also, players down the middle always have more options to pick from. A winger has to try and beat his man or look for a pass on just 1 side, a player through the middle doesnt have that problem. this will always mean that central players have better pass completion ratios or lose the ball less often even when having a bad game than a winger. unless its someone like ando who really goes for the jagular more often than not.
Also, players down the middle always have more options to pick from. A winger has to try and beat his man or look for a pass on just 1 side, a player through the middle doesnt have that problem. this will always mean that central players have better pass completion ratios or lose the ball less often even when having a bad game than a winger. unless its someone like ando who really goes for the jagular more often than not.
Young has been the more productive winger this season so far.
True. Although Young's stats have been massaged slightly by having to sit out the last few tricky/defensively minded fixtures through injury.
When him and Nani were both at their best, in our opening games, he was no less influential and - as you say - generally more productive.
The thing with Nani is, when he is off form he really looks poor because the things he does/tries to do are so technical that even being slightly off makes it look like hard work. He's not really the sort for short passes and rolling the ball down the channels, he still wants to beat his man and attempt more difficult passes. Which is a sign of the mental strength/courage he has. Obviously there are times he would be better off playing it simple but that's what makes him the player he is, and I guess, what allows him still to pull out these moments when he is playing badly.
Not to mention getting two assists for stopping the ball for Rooney's free-kicks against Arsenal.
Youngs contribution has been overrated because of the Arsenal match.
Valencia is not half as good or half as consistent as Nani. Infact Valencia has been incredibly poor this year.
