The money could have been better spent on someone like lewandowski - someone we could develop.
Negativity about RVP
- Thread starter Hectic
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
and this is the point where your credibility goes flying out the window...
You don't pass up a proven, world class striker like RVP to take a punt on Lewandowski who at 23 is a good player but nowhere close to being as versatile or effective as RVP.
I think a far bigger difference would have been not losing one of the best central defenders in Europe for the whole season. When this coincided with the need to bed in a new, inexperienced keeper at the same time as a rookie like Phil Jones I don't think it makes sense to look at a lack of a defensive midfielder as an explanation for the goals against column.
As for cover at left back, we have Evans, Blackett and Brady who could all do a job. If Fergie thinks they're not good enough I'm sure he'll look at getting someone in.
What any of this has to do with how fans react to Van Persie's signing is a bit of a mystery to me. If, at the end of the transfer window, we haven't got in the reinforcements we need then people are entitle to belly-ache. Meanwhile, every other signing should be judged on his own merits.
Spot on.
It's pointless posting any single line up, we have a fantastic squad now, exceptionally strong and it will be used over the course of a season.
There are hundreds of possibilities and we won't know which one is our strongest for a long while, if we ever do. It's like an incredibly complicated game of Rock, Paper, Scissors.
We have Strikers in a two:
Rooney - RVP
Welbeck - Hernandez
and every combination in between.
Then you can play Kagawa off either of them.
Then you have two midfielders to play behind that lot (either with or without Kagawa) from:
Carrick, Scholes, Anderson, Cleverley, Giggs, Powell.
We might even be playing with Kagawa and two strikers at times.
Then you have the wing options of Valencia, Nani and Young.
Then pick a defence.
Our only actual weak spot is left back with no cover for Evra.
We'd like a stronger midfield of course, but lets not go calling that weak. Good mid-table teams would give anything to have the likes of Carrick, Cleverley, Scholes and Anderson at their disposal. It might not match up to Barcelona but it certainly ain't weak.
There are hundreds of possibilities and we won't know which one is our strongest for a long while, if we ever do. It's like an incredibly complicated game of Rock, Paper, Scissors.
We have Strikers in a two:
Rooney - RVP
Welbeck - Hernandez
and every combination in between.
Then you can play Kagawa off either of them.
Then you have two midfielders to play behind that lot (either with or without Kagawa) from:
Carrick, Scholes, Anderson, Cleverley, Giggs, Powell.
We might even be playing with Kagawa and two strikers at times.
Then you have the wing options of Valencia, Nani and Young.
Then pick a defence.
Our only actual weak spot is left back with no cover for Evra.
We'd like a stronger midfield of course, but lets not go calling that weak. Good mid-table teams would give anything to have the likes of Carrick, Cleverley, Scholes and Anderson at their disposal. It might not match up to Barcelona but it certainly ain't weak.
The difference is Torres was bought as a long-term replacement for Drogba, and he wasn't wanted by the manager. Trying to fit Drogba and Torres into the same team was a problem from the beginning, 1000s of people had said before the move had even gone through that it wouldn't work as a partnership because a) neither are capable of dropping deep, they're both limited in the sense they can only play right up top and b) Chelsea didn't play with two forwards. Neither of which apply in our case. They clearly could play together in a number of systems because they're much more versatile - both having played out wide, in behind or right up top - and the main setup they'd work together in is the system we've played for years.
As for the Kagawa issue, I'd imagine people thought the same about Scholes when he was the same age. We wouldn't have bought Van Persie if Sir Alex didn't think he was well suited to playing a different role. The 'best position' thing is always overstated when it comes to these floaty attacking midfielder types. Ask Nasri, Silva or Tevez what their best position is and they'll say in behind the striker. Ask Hazard, Mata and Oscar and they'll say the same. With their level of skill and intelligence they can be influential from any attacking position. Looks like a bright future with so many top teams adding top class attackers, the pendulum's starting to swing the other way compared to worries about the game being too reliant on physique and defensive strength almost a decade ago. Perhaps Barca are to thank for that.
Dear god
Yes, exactly.
Perhaps Anderson could be omitted, but the other three would usually be the best midfielder at a midtable club. What's so strange about that?
It will surely have something to do with it though if those positions aren't dealt with before the window is over too though. People will then question why we spunked out so much on him instead of sorting out those problem areas. I'll reserve judgement until the window ends, because we don't know what will happen.
Perhaps Anderson could be omitted, but the other three would usually be the best midfielder at a midtable club. What's so strange about that?
Using mid table clubs to stress how good our midfielders are?
Put it this way. Nani and Valencia would walk into almost any team in Europe. So would Rooney and RVP. So would Vidic and Rio. Mid table teams should come nowhere near the debate for a club like us.
That's what I was asking you earlier. Do you think it was a choice between RVP and a CM, or do you think we got RVP because it was an exceptional one-off chance to sign one of the league's best strikers?
No Pexbo, it's the fact that you're using mid table sides as examples in the first place that I find baffling.
Yeah I see your point now. Even if his argument wasn't presented in the best way, his underlying point (that our midfield isn't weak), was still correct.
I don't remember you asking me, or at least I didn't see it.
Like I said, I have no idea, it was certainly a big statement from the club to do it. I don't think we will sign in those areas this Summer, so it's inevitable that people will start questioning what the point of it is.
Not really. I don't even think we were defensively poor or let in too many goals - just as we didn't really score too few. But since we did lose on GD, it's just as true to say more defensive cover would have helped as it is to say more attacking talent would have helped. It's virtually a matter of arithmetic. In fact we'd have won the league on points because when all the centre-halves got injured we wouldn't have [you can finish my sentence for me].
Pogue Mahone said:
Well hopefully. It's not just a matter of back-up though, personally I'd like to see Evra challenged for his place and even potentially surpassed. Similarly to Carrick, except that Evra's actually been shite for two years.
Pogue Mahone said:
That would be true in a world where we had unlimited funds.
Both Rooney and RVP can play as false #9...which offers us a great deal of flexibility. Plus both strikers are accustomed to being playmakers so I can't see how this will hurt the team. We have two genuinely world class strikers who can create 5-10 goals and score 25-35 a season. How many teams can boast the same?
The two may not be directly related, but they are related. What we spend on RvP will effect what we spend on other positions.
But that wasn't my point in any of what I've said anyway so this is irrelevant to me I suppose.
Its not quite like that though, physiologically that is, when one is desperately looking forward to signing a midfielder all summer and we sign a 29 year old striker its hard to be that enthusiastic.
If we had signed a 20 year old amazing prospect striker I'd be more excited event if we haven't signed a CM yet.
So its a combination of his age and us not yet signing a CM that holds back too much excitement.
It was in relation to the above. Isn't it worth waiting until the transfer window is actually over before reacting as if RVP was signed over a LB or CM though?
My first post today said exactly that though. I said (around 3 or 4 times) that I will hold off judgement until the window is over.
RVP turned 29 about a weeks ago, was it exciting watching RVP last season demolish the league with Arsenal? Because you can talk about 29 year old strikers, and not having a CM and that, but you're not actually mentioning our signing. It's exciting because it's RVP, and he's an insanely talented footballer, who is playing the best football of his career right now.
This doesn't sound like you are holding off judgement though:
It reads like you thought he was signed over another player in a different position. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting it.
Because you talk about our midfield as if Fulham would be ashamed of it.
Our Strike force is world class. Even Barcelona would envy being able to call on Rooney and Van Persie.
Our wingers in terms of squad strength are world class. Nani and Valencia are fantastic players, Young is a very good player who adds depth.
Our defence is world class, I can't think of a club with better options than Vidic, Ferdinand, Evans, Smalling, Evra, Rafael and Jones.
Our midfield doesn't match these positions but we still have fantastic options in Carrick, Scholes, Cleverley, Anderson, Kagawa, Powell, Jones and Giggs. It's our weakest area, everyone knows that, every club has one. City's defence is theirs. Our midfield isn't going to be what wins us the EPL and UCL but it's a more than adequete supporting act and despite what you think not everyone believes it is as shit as you think it is.
It's our last season of transition as far as I am concerned but I still expect to win the League with these players.
Giggs and Scholes will retire, we'll bring someone in next season and then it's go time. For this season, we bed in Kagawa in a 3 man midfield, start blooding Powell and get Anderson and Cleverley kicking on all of these things I would much rather be done with Giggs and Scholes in the changing room, training pitch and alongside them than I would some big name midfield signing who is going to take a year to bed in himself.
Balance and timing is key and I think Fergie has got it spot on.
Caf logic: 'sign a young player!' because of resale value, even though this means he won't be with us for long; 'don't sign an old player!' because he won't be with us for long.
And then you have to take into account 'don't sign "random latin player" because he will no doubt screw us over and join Barca or Madrid.Some people will never be happy.
Why does his age dull the excitement for you?
Of course you do. Sir Alex said just this summer that we've been looking for a new midfielder, he just can't find the right one. If he could find another Roy Keane he'd snap him up in a second. Why would he buy Van Persie if it meant he wasn't able to bring in a midfielder?!
Why are you preaching to me about how good our wingers and strikers are? I said that looooong before we signed RVP and Kagawa.
This looks like it will enter the same old tired debate, so all I'll say is this. I don't consider our midfield to be anything near mid table, it's just not at the level of the other elite clubs in European football. I just find it pretty fecking funny that you're comparing it to mid table sides in order to emphasize how good it is. I mean, come on, seriously, can you not see how silly that is?
This looks like it will enter the same old tired debate, so all I'll say is this. I don't consider our midfield to be anything near mid table, it's just not at the level of the other elite clubs in European football. I just find it pretty fecking funny that you're comparing it to mid table sides in order to emphasize how good it is. I mean, come on, seriously, can you not see how silly that is?
It makes sense in that he's not initially excited about RvP as he doesn't address cm and lb, if we take care of those two positions then I imagine he would be a lot more excited about the RvP signing. Until those positions are finalized it is difficult to judge how you feel about RvP. This is my take on it and I imagine similar to how Cina feels.
I didn't think he said we wanted one though, did he? I thought he mentioned something about Scholes being impossible to replace etc, but didn't actually say we were looking to buy one, no?
I stand by my theory that SAF would rather milk Scholes, Giggs and Carrick for all they were worth than splash out on a midfielder, a position he has a terrible record of transfers in, therefore I don't think he was in the market for one, and I don't think he will be until they retire.
Does it have anything to do with RVP? Like I said, I've no idea.
I've no idea why people repeatedly ignore this, tedious in the extreme.
Concerning the OP, what's wrong with some posters being pessimistic?
Yeah that does makes sense actually, but to me that then enters into Pogue's point below, which echoesis my take on things;
Pogue said:
That was my position before the signing, yes, yesterday in fact I was basically saying that.
I'm not going to change my mind, the signing doesn't excite me, I won't pretend it does now just to save face. I was hardly passing judgement on whether it'll stop us signing a midfielder though, I mean, I said before we signed RVP that I don't think we will, for reasons mentioned above.
EDIT: Just to note, the main reason the signing was a bit "meh" for me is because we got Kagawa, a player I've been watching in the Bundesliga for the last 2 years, and I want him playing behind Rooney, which won't happen very much with RVP here (unless we start playing entirely new formations)
It all depends on what you think we need, it seems natural to be less excited about something if you don't think you need that thing. It might be a nice luxury to have, but it will likely have less of a positive impact.
We have a player turning 38 and another turning 39 this year. Professionals last on average longer than they did 10-20 years ago.
What's wrong with buying a player in his prime? We rarely do that. This guy was the best striker last season. Better than Aguero, Drogba, Rooney, Tevez, Balotelli, Torres, Suarez, Adebayor, Ba and Cisse. Most people agree on that. Why shouldn't he be able to carry on his form? People on here were laughing at Arsenal at times and saying that RvP was carrying them the whole season. Is someone suggesting that they don't want a player like that?
Why do you think that the RvP buy is stopping us from buying a central midfielder? No one knows what bids have been rejected or if there was a viable candidate.
If you can't enjoy this purchase than there's something wrong with you, plain and simple. The squad is never going to be perfect. We just got a world class striker who's very much established in football. No need for a "prospect" as we have 2 of those already. We all like Welbeck but we also all know that he's a rubbish finisher. Hernandez is a great finisher but he's not highly evolved with much else. RvP does both. He's got a cannon for a left foot and will bring a new depth and danger that neither Welbeck or Hernandez do. Enjoy what we got. Him and Rooney could potentially be the best partnership that we'll see in the PL. I believe that even if they fail to be great they'll at least score about 30 goals between them. That's what they do. Rooney still got goals when he was playing poorly.
We still have poor full back cover and the central midfield is a question mark but this attacking threat is going to be bigger than anything we could have made from a midfield signing. This adds another gun to our arsenal (pardon the phrase) instead of calibrating the ones we have a bit.
FFS people. Bottom line is this. You know how good Rooney, Nani and Valencia are. You've seen how exiting Kagawa is and how good he is at messing around with that ball. The anger of Arsenal fans should be a clear indicator how they value this signing of ours and they've seen him play more than we have.
What's wrong with buying a player in his prime? We rarely do that. This guy was the best striker last season. Better than Aguero, Drogba, Rooney, Tevez, Balotelli, Torres, Suarez, Adebayor, Ba and Cisse. Most people agree on that. Why shouldn't he be able to carry on his form? People on here were laughing at Arsenal at times and saying that RvP was carrying them the whole season. Is someone suggesting that they don't want a player like that?
Why do you think that the RvP buy is stopping us from buying a central midfielder? No one knows what bids have been rejected or if there was a viable candidate.
If you can't enjoy this purchase than there's something wrong with you, plain and simple. The squad is never going to be perfect. We just got a world class striker who's very much established in football. No need for a "prospect" as we have 2 of those already. We all like Welbeck but we also all know that he's a rubbish finisher. Hernandez is a great finisher but he's not highly evolved with much else. RvP does both. He's got a cannon for a left foot and will bring a new depth and danger that neither Welbeck or Hernandez do. Enjoy what we got. Him and Rooney could potentially be the best partnership that we'll see in the PL. I believe that even if they fail to be great they'll at least score about 30 goals between them. That's what they do. Rooney still got goals when he was playing poorly.
We still have poor full back cover and the central midfield is a question mark but this attacking threat is going to be bigger than anything we could have made from a midfield signing. This adds another gun to our arsenal (pardon the phrase) instead of calibrating the ones we have a bit.
FFS people. Bottom line is this. You know how good Rooney, Nani and Valencia are. You've seen how exiting Kagawa is and how good he is at messing around with that ball. The anger of Arsenal fans should be a clear indicator how they value this signing of ours and they've seen him play more than we have.
You do though! You're saying that Sir Alex doesn't want a midfielder, ergo it has nothing to do with Van Persie. I'm fairly certain Sir Alex said that if he could find the new Keane he'd happily go all out for him. He definitely said something about a new Keane.
Really? I thought it was Scholes he kept talking about? feck knows.
I meant "I've no idea" as in, everything I'm saying is pure speculation. I don't know if I'm correct with what I think, nor if RVP has an impact, nor if SAF does/doesn't actually want a midfielder. All you can do is speculate.
But I would like to think that the RVP signing has nothing to do with our midfield, and that SAF does have this big masterplan for it that none of us can comprehend, and does see how much of a problem area it is and isn't just ignoring it. Is that ok?