Neymar

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Probably already been stated many times but skimming through I haven't seen it - the Brazilian state leagues only started up a few weeks ago & the national league doesn't begin until May, so it's not a huge surprise if the Europe-based players looked a lot sharper.

edit: plus I'm with Baxter on finding the backlash in these cases more annoying than the hype. In Neymar's case the hype I've read comes from Brazilian fans who have all the greats who went on to make incredible impacts in Europe, to compare Neymar to. Obviously it's about formulating your own opinion on a player (I haven't seen nearly enough to be able to) but it's definitely not just a case empty media hype.

I also find a lot of the 'has to move to Europe' views expressed, parochial. There's definitely a gulf in quality between the leagues of the top European nations & South American leagues, because of the gulf in finances. The exodus of young talent for better pay doesn't help the situation. Even then I don't think there's a huge difference between the very top teams. I can imagine the responses, but more often than not the European teams want to win the Club World Cup & the games against the Libertadores winners almost always ends up being more than competitive.
 
Brwned said:
Indeed. Average (at best) at the Copa America as Brazil were embarrassingly knocked out early, almost non-existent in the Club World Cup v Barcelona, generally average in any semi-competitive games against decent teams...and yet we're told he's a once in a generation talent, sure to be up there with Messi and Ronaldo. Something's not quite right there.
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I've not seen him in the Copa Libertadores, but he seems to do well in that competition.
 
He seems to have all the tools to be a very good player and also has a lot of time on his hands to do so. But anyone rating him along side Ronaldo and Messi are having a laugh :)
 
I think it's fair to say he has probably stagnated his own progress in Brazil. Needs moving to Europe this summer to start a new chapter of his very promising career, and a manager who can help him become a world beater. You know, like Fergie ;)
 
Although not very good tonight, no doubt he is a very talented player.

However, not in the Messi/Ronaldo bracket that everyone is talking about or hyping him to. But stil will be an awesome player.
 
coolredwine said:
Has Neymar scored on a cold, rainy Tuesday night at Stoke? :p
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Doesn't need to be a cold, rainy Tuesday in Stoke does it...:lol: He didn't score in England, which says a great deal.

Cold_Boy said:
Although not very good tonight, no doubt he is a very talented player.

However, not in the Messi/Ronaldo bracket that everyone is talking about or hyping him to. But stil will be an awesome player.
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He is a very talented player, but for all that talent, he did nothing last night. My God, even Gerrard was better than Neymar last night. He might not be in the Messi bracket, or even in the Ronaldo/Iniesta/Xavi bracket, but he is up there with some decent players, but what he did last night in the game you could write on a pinhead.
 
Baxter said:
Yeah, because he didn't score against England/English team he is overrated. It isn't the be all of football. He scores goals and wins titles wherever he goes. Shockingly overrated.
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He's only played in Brazil - where the standard isn't as high as Europe.

He was average in the Olympics, and I recall he was criticised for his performances at a youth World Cup a few years ago (or some other junior tournament).

People are easily lulled into the hype about Brazilian players - largely because there's been so many great ones in the past.

He's probably a very talented player, but looked rank average last night. His real test will be when he moves to a big club in a big european league.

Oscar was miles better than him last night - good movement, great eye for a pass, a constant threat. A bargain for Chelsea.
 
adexkola said:
I've not seen him in the Copa Libertadores, but he seems to do well in that competition.
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I've seen very little but I saw the semi's and final in which Neymar scored and won, and the defensive organisation of both Penarol and Santos was outrageously poor. Santos are a very gung-ho team who play an open, expansive game but I was surprised to see Chilean, Uruguayan and Argentinian clubs play the same way. There's more tactical fouling than tactical defending.
 
Skill wise, tough to find too many forwards with what Neymar has to offer - especially at his age. However, to see the maturation in Oscar's game in the last 18 months compared to Neymar and it's to understand the benefit of coming to Europe, IMO. I don't know how Scolari can't build around Oscar ahead of the WC, now.

They were the two best on the pitch for me but the Chelsea star looks a much more polished talent atm - with a very complete game and he too remains raw himself. Very curious to see just how good he can become.

Personally, I think it's already too late for Neymar to make a mark in the WC as he should've moved this past summer. Even if he comes abroad this summer, he will be in for a rude awakening the first 6-9 months which might have negative consequences for Brasil's chances in the WC. By then, I suspect Oscar's value to the seleção will be even greater
 
TheHorse'sMouth said:
He is still a fabulous player. Neymar's ability is beyond question
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I don't think he as a player can be deemed 'beyond question', I've touted him as one of the world's best in that future redcafe stars - but the longer he stays away from Europe, the more he's harming his development imo. I think last summer was the perfect time to make a move and he surely has to leave.. game intelligence, physical conditioning - aspects which will develop him into that next level but something which can only happen if he puts himself in a scenario where he is up against the best on a consistent basis. At the moment he is heading for a rude awakening at the next world cup, which would be a shame.. as I don't think he's a brainless talent, he's pretty intelligent on the ball and possesses excellent tricks/close control but in my opinion he needs that extra fitness/strength to burn past top defenders.
 
I don't think it's even the quality of football that's harming him in Brazil, it's the fact he's been treated as a god in Brazil since he's been in his teens. He's revered for being a showpony - that can't be a helpful atmosphere for his development.
 
No doubt he's going to be a very good player you can see his ability but the comparison to Messi and Ronaldo and a reported £50m transfer value....not a chance at the moment. He might be able to run rings around people in Brazil but everytime iv seen him outside of that league he's been really quiet. Needs to leave Brazil asap if he really wants to reach the level of Ronaldo and Messi.
 
Brwned said:
I don't think it's even the quality of football that's harming him in Brazil, it's the fact he's been treated as a god in Brazil since he's been in his teens. He's revered for being a showpony - that can't be a helpful atmosphere for his development.
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True, I don't want him to lose that flair side to him.. in fact its the one thing which distinguishes him from Messi and C.Ronaldo but they're two of the most efficient footballers we've ever seen and they developed in Europe under the some of the greatest clubs in terms of nurturing player development.. he's missing out big time.

He needs to move to a Barcelona or United if he wants to reach that level, a move to a club like Chelsea/Madrid/City.. and I can't see his career panning out very well.
 
If someone spends £50m on this guy then they're mental. Yes he looks good in Brazil, but the level of football there is piss poor.

We can only really jusdge him on his international matches, and the 7 or so matches I've seen of him has been unmipressive to say the least. I'm expecting so much more and I'm left thinking 'what the feck?'.
 
Brwned said:
I've seen very little but I saw the semi's and final in which Neymar scored and won, and the defensive organisation of both Penarol and Santos was outrageously poor. Santos are a very gung-ho team who play an open, expansive game but I was surprised to see Chilean, Uruguayan and Argentinian clubs play the same way. There's more tactical fouling than tactical defending.
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I thought both finalists last season were very European defensively, and Corinthians showed in the CWC that they're tough to break down. Boca and Vélez were quite good also. Santos mainly depended on flashes of genius from one of Neymar or Ganso (and at a stretch, Arouca).

The 2011 edition was quite weak, and had in Peñarol one of the weakest finalists in years.
 
There have been murmurs that he is overprotected in Brazil and any rough-housing of him is harshly penalised. It has also been stated that the carte blanche he gets there may not wash when he gets to Europe and he may be in for a shock when he finds out how the game is when not afforded copious amounts of protection from referees.

From what we see of him for the Selecao, I can't help but think he is in for a rough ride and real culture shock once he gets to Europe, especially as he would be arriving off the back of a huge price tag, massive hype and pressure to show his wares right from the off.

He is immature and fragile as a player outside of South America. I've followed his development since the hype began and he has never struck me as being ready to perform at a prodigal or superstar level without lots of conditions being met. I think he has a lot of talent, but he has yet to develop in conditions which force him to learn the do's and don'ts under intense scrutiny and criticism.

I would have to concur with the thought that he thinks he's better than he is, but that's The Emperor's New Clothes syndrome he's swamped by in Brazil where they are pinning far too much hope on him being the chosen one to lead them to victory in 2014. Unless he does a serious amount of growing up between now and then, all the talent in the world won't make up for fragility and immaturity in his game when met with opposing players who are under no remit to offer kid gloves with him - he often seems somewhat astounded when a foul is not called for slight touches or nudges and it puts him off his game far more than it should.

The longer he stays in Brazil, the longer it'll take him to marry talent with the maturity to make it tangible on the grander stages. I don't think that rings true for all players who stay in Brazil, but with Neymar, he clearly believes the hype and that sense of entitlement he has needs some serious adjustment.
 
People being quick to dismiss him. The talent he has is pretty obvious and he showed it in the Olympics too.

Even Cristiano Ronaldo was shit playing for Portugal in many spells.

He is not at Messi/Ronaldo level, but he is still very talented. Would love to have him here for the right price.
 
LoveInTheAsylum said:
Probably already been stated many times but skimming through I haven't seen it - the Brazilian state leagues only started up a few weeks ago & the national league doesn't begin until May, so it's not a huge surprise if the Europe-based players looked a lot sharper.
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Yep, that's definitely a point that needs making. However...

In Neymar's case the hype I've read comes from Brazilian fans who have all the greats who went on to make incredible impacts in Europe, to compare Neymar to.
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On the contrary, I trust Brazilian hype about him far less than I trust the European hype/backlash/whatever you want to call it tbf. Brazil are desperate - desperate!! - for it to pan out. We're in a period where Brazil have under performed (by their expectations) at the last 2 World Cups and lost an Olympics they sincerely tried to win to Mexico. Where the best team in the world are a Spain team considered by most to be well above them, and where the best player in the world is an Argentinian who many are already proclaiming the greatest of all time. Worse still, his closest challenger, the Pele to his Maradona, is a Portugese! It's like football is having a big latin love in and Brazil - the country of all footballing countries, and one that prides itself on that - are frozen out. And to top it all off, they've got to host the World Cup where all these players might just come to their hallowed back yard and show them up!

So even if Neymar wasn't about, they'd still be bigging up someone as their counterpart to Messi. It was always a bit silly for people to be placing him up there with M&R already when in reality he's achieved far less on the global stage than Rooney had....at 18.

Now that's not saying Neymar's going to be a massive flop, he's got great talent, but the Brazilian opinion of him is very unreliable IMO. There's always someone coming out of Brazil who's going to be the next Pele or Fat Ronaldo. They rely on stuff like that. And right now it just so happens that they're desperate for it more than ever. Which ironically is precisely what's stunting his development into actually being one.
 
Brazillian press is hyping him up in the same way British press is hyping up Bale, tbf.

Both are clearly not in Messi/Ronaldo league.
 
Didn't see the game so I can't comment at all on it. I'm not surprised at the knee-jerk reaction, however, as it happens regularly. If he'd destroyed England you'd have an equal contingent overrating him even more. It's just one game.

I've seen a lot of Neymar. Yeah, he's not consistent yet, especially against top competition. It's a legitimate criticism. But the fact remains, Neymar can do things that not many other players can, and probably no one else in the world at his age. I'm sorry, but anyone questioning his footballing brain hasn't a fecking clue (Cough*peterstorey*cough). He does some stupid shit, mainly due to his age and lack of playing in a strict system (if he moves to Barca, within a year or two there will be a dramatic drop-off in poor decisions). However, to see his intelligence, you just need to look at his movement. It's absolutely superb. He's always making intelligent, darting runs. In fact his movement is one of his best assets in my opinion, and will help him a lot when he moves on. I'm not even going to mention his eye for a pass and vision, which, whilst not on Oscar's level, is still excellent for a player of his type. Certainly superior to Ronaldo's even currently, although that's neither here nor there as that's not what Ronaldo is about.

I think Neymar is extremely talented, though will likely never reach the heights of Messi or Ronaldo. That does not mean he won't be worldclass. I am worried that he's leaving Brazil too late, however, and it could have stagnated his progress. He's an enigma, hugely talented despite all the knee jerkers who have seen him a couple times and formed an opinion. There are those who dislike him because of his hair and arrogance (madness, these people are idiots). But there are certainly reasons to be apprehensive about what levels he will reach. How will he deal with not being the main man at Barca, and the massive jump in the standard? He has the talent to adapt and be a great player, but it's not a certainty. Will certainly be interesting, though.
 
No doubt we can all agree that Neymar needs to join a European club to fill the bucket of hype that has preceded him the last few years.

I wonder, however, whether he'd be a good fit for Barcelona. He looks like a footballer who wants all play going through him, a footballing version of Kobe Bryant, and that's just not gonna happen at Barcelona. Real looks like a better fit, especially if Ronaldo leaves for Old Trafford this summer. You can never rule our Chelsea either...Coach Roman loves big name players and has a thing for samba boys.
 
Nanderson said:
Didn't see the game so I can't comment at all on it. I'm not surprised at the knee-jerk reaction, however, as it happens regularly. If he'd destroyed England you'd have an equal contingent overrating him even more. It's just one game.

I've seen a lot of Neymar. Yeah, he's not consistent yet, especially against top competition. It's a legitimate criticism. But the fact remains, Neymar can do things that not many other players can, and probably no one else in the world at his age. I'm sorry, but anyone questioning his footballing brain hasn't a fecking clue (Cough*peterstorey*cough). He does some stupid shit, mainly due to his age and lack of playing in a strict system (if he moves to Barca, within a year or two there will be a dramatic drop-off in poor decisions). However, to see his intelligence, you just need to look at his movement. It's absolutely superb. He's always making intelligent, darting runs. In fact his movement is one of his best assets in my opinion, and will help him a lot when he moves on. I'm not even going to mention his eye for a pass and vision, which, whilst not on Oscar's level, is still excellent for a player of his type. Certainly superior to Ronaldo's even currently, although that's neither here nor there as that's not what Ronaldo is about.

I think Neymar is extremely talented, though will likely never reach the heights of Messi or Ronaldo. That does not mean he won't be worldclass. I am worried that he's leaving Brazil too late, however, and it could have stagnated his progress. He's an enigma, hugely talented despite all the knee jerkers who have seen him a couple times and formed an opinion. There are those who dislike him because of his hair and arrogance (madness, these people are idiots). But there are certainly reasons to be apprehensive about what levels he will reach. How will he deal with not being the main man at Barca, and the massive jump in the standard? He has the talent to adapt and be a great player, but it's not a certainty. Will certainly be interesting, though.
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My thoughts to the point. As an all round attacker, he is extremely gifted. Yeah he didn't have the best of games yesterday but there's no doubting his ability. The same English media ripping into him today are the ones who once proclaimed Barcelona not being able to do it 'on a cold night in Stoke'. They're fecking clueless.
 
Neymar's ceiling as a player is far higher than Bales, his vision/technical ability are on a different planet. He just needs to be in a competitive league and be guided by the best coaches, then he'll make the jump.. just needs to make sure he doesn't miss the boat, these formative years are vital.
 
Think it's time for him to move to Europe, to be honest. There is no doubting his talent, and one single game against a very good England-side should not see him being labeled as "overhyped" or any of the sort.

He needs to play against better opposition week in and week out though, or he'll never be able to really step it up against the better International sides. Would love to see him on the left for us, but I figure the expectations of the boy would be too much for him in the beginning.
 
I rate Neymar and do think he is a talent and can succeed in Europe, but unfortunately for him, I do think he will end up Robinho MK II as many are predicting.

Despite his young age, as strange as it sounds, I think he's at a crossroads career wise. While in Brazil he's protected and has the freedom to do whatever he wants, which I think has stagnated his progress as a player and allowed him to develop some bad habits that won't be acceptable at a club and in a country where he isn't treated like he can't do no wrong.

With the hype and price tag on him, he'll get snapped up by one of the biggest clubs in Europe, whose fans will expect him deliver immediately and fit in from the start and that isn't going to happen if things stay the same. Ideally, he should go somewhere like Shakhtar or Ajax before making the big move, but because of the hype and price tag that will never happen and he'll be quickly labelled a flop despite the raw talent that is there for all to see.
 
Neymar is a better player than Bale, and is 3 years younger. He scored more goals for Santos last season than Bale has in his Spurs career. I know what the response will be though.
 
Baxter said:
Neymar is a better player than Bale, and is 3 years younger. He scored more goals for Santos last season than Bale has in his Spurs career. I know what the response will be though.
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While I do agree that Neymar seems better than Bale atm but comparing the premiership to the Brazilian top division is hardly fair and subsequently a player's exploits in the said league.
 
Baxter said:
Neymar is a better player than Bale, and is 3 years younger. He scored more goals for Santos last season than Bale has in his Spurs career. I know what the response will be though.
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The reason why you know what the response will be is because it's a pretty vital and obvious one. For one, playing in the Premier League is a whole other level of football compared to the Brazilian league.

2nd of all, Bale has been playing as a winger/even as a LB for most of his career. He's done very well in the Premier League, so it's difficult to say for certain that Neymar is the better player. I rate both very highly, but I would say that Bale has proven himself more than Neymar at this point, but then again Neymar could become a beast by the time he's at Bales age.
 
Burrow said:
Think it's time for him to move to Europe, to be honest. There is no doubting his talent, and one single game against a very good England-side should not see him being labeled as "overhyped" or any of the sort.

He needs to play against better opposition week in and week out though, or he'll never be able to really step it up against the better International sides. Would love to see him on the left for us, but I figure the expectations of the boy would be too much for him in the beginning.
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England are fecking atrocious and have been since the 90s :lol:
 
Count Orduck said:
England are fecking atrocious and have been since the 90s :lol:
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As I agree that they've been below what's expected of them (hard not to, really), I think they performed very well against Brazil yesterday. If it was just a one-off remains to be seen, but I dont think history should decide wether or not England was a good side yesterday.
 
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