Our lad Ronaldo

[Feedingseagulls]

You couldn't try and spin that version of events if you tried. Agitating for a move is PRECISELY what he tried to do, hence the summer long saga. This could have been very easily sorted within a day if he'd wanted it to be

Let's do some history here Brad.

Early in the post season Ronaldo told us he hoped to have an announcement to make in a couple of days.

Note that this was not a decision - when a journalist tried to use this term Ronaldo was quick to correct him in no uncertain terms. You still portrayed him as making a 'decision' iirc.

That timescale surely precluded it being any sort of announcement about a move - that would take much longer surely - also it seems inconceivable that a transfer of such a player would precede a major summer international tournament.

No matter - Brad proclaims 'this means he's going' iirc.

The 'announcement' (still not a 'decision' note) is then advertised as suffering a delay - maybe 2 weeks - that'd still be before the tournament - still not a sensible timescale for a transfer announcement.

We then go into 'nothing being said until after the tournament' mode.

(The suggestion I & others later made is that something Ronaldo expected to happen over this period did not - because there is then a change.)

Only after all that do we start to hear of a declared interest to move this year - yet oddly an interview suggesting this also refers to Ronaldo being forgiven by Utd fans after scoring goals - the latter doesn't match with someone definitely leaving tbh.

When we get to the post-summer summary of the events Ronaldo again explicitly tells us that the Moscow result affected his decision to think about leaving - this matches everything he told us throughout the summer - he obviously only decided he'd definitely like to move later in the summer.

You take Ronaldo's admission of a later decision as an indication that your suggestion of an earlier decision was true - but it doesn't provide any of the evidence you need for that. On the very same day as you want to interpret some ill-defined statements as indicating he'd decided before Moscow, Ronaldo explicitly states he has not yet made any decision regarding Real.

You allowed your emotion to falsely interpet many things this summer - and you are still so afflicted!

 

[Number7]

I'm ready to rejoin this arguement:

Ronaldo is a right fecking cnut.

 

[Feedingseagulls]

Sadly Feeding, and this sums up your approach to life quite well I feel, ACTIONS speak louder than WORDS

The only 'action' that is really relevant is that he wanted to move at some time during the summer.

He repeatedly tells us this was much later than you suggest.

You just take his admission that he wanted to move eventually as 'proof' he wanted to move when you said.

It isn't - it's proof he wanted to move sometime.

The only 'evidence' you can produce as regards timing ios controversial, based on interpretation, and relies on one interview being taken in your sense as accurate and many other remarks made by Ronaldo on many occasions, clearly, and without need for interpretation, as false.

The evidence is clearly against you.

Q.E.D.

 

[Feedingseagulls]

I'm ready to rejoin this arguement:

Ronaldo is a right fecking cnut.

The evidence suggests that you would be more so.

 

[B Cantona]

You quite clearly don't understand the concept of evidence

I'm done arguing with you about what happened during the summer. The mass, mass majority agree with me. Many may still think we should support him entirely, others think we shouldn't. But you're whistling in the wind with your keks down if you think many people argree with your version of events. It's not my problem you can't conceed an arguement when you've flunked it

Fact is you're now the one pushing an agenda. What United fans are doing right now is not detrimental to the team, not at all. What you're doing is, because it's divisive amonst our own supporters. Even if we're wrong about Ronaldo, we're doing it because we have the love of the club at heart. You'd think that would cut a bit more slack with folk

 

[Feedingseagulls]

You quite clearly don't understand the concept of evidence

I'm done arguing with you about what happened during the summer. The mass, mass majority agree with me. Many may still think we should support him entirely, others think we shouldn't. But you're whistling in the wind with your keks down if you think many people argree with your version of events. It's not my problem you can't conceed an arguement when you've flunked it

Fact is you're now the one pushing an agenda. What United fans are doing right now is not detrimental to the team, not at all. What you're doing is, because it's divisive amonst our own supporters. Even if we're wrong about Ronaldo, we're doing it because we have the love of the club at heart. You'd think that would cut a bit more slack with folk

I'm not being divisive - I'm saying get behind the team including Ronaldo. It's those who want to make some emotional point that need to remember that team support is paramount.

I feel you have some weird distortion of a club and team that you love rather than the reality - that's why you are so far away from doing the best for the team.

Many, many folk don't think Ronaldo did much wrong - and you haven't managed to show anything that is wrong as opposed to merely disliked by you & yours. Just look back at the recent posts where people reckon you are being OTT.

You were the one you tried to create a division by complaining about fans who welcomed Ronaldo back remember.

.......


You, like some others, may have decided on a particular version of events over the summer that matches what the media told you from early on. The problem is that you reckon this constitutes 'evidence'.

When pushed on what was directly said (as opposed to editorial) you have to desperately claim that everything bar one particular 'canonical' remark was false but that your chosen remark must be true and mean what you claim. That's a basic fact regarding your 'case'.

.......

For you, almost everything bar one interview has to be false - because the interpretation of that one ambiguous interview has to be the one you want to place on it to give you any evidence at all.

In contrast, my version simply takes everything said as possibly true - and if a consistent interpretation is possible then it views that as the most probable.

My version requires none of Ronaldo's remarks to be viewed as arbitrarily false (unlike yours where most of them must be so treated) - it merely requires us to acknowledge that your interpetations of a couple of ambiguous remarks were flawed.

My interpretation matches the facts - yours flies in the face of them and requires special pleading. If submitted as a thesis yours is a non-starter.

That's understanding the concept of evidence.

 

[B Cantona]

I think your problem is that you take Ronaldo's word as gospel, until he says something that doesn't quite match your version of events, where you then come up with some contorted reasoning that he must have meant something else, even though you can't pin down what that something else is. You certainly have no evidence to base it on, it's simply your own guess work

You keep making the mistake of thinking we've been reading every word the press utters, and lapping it up. We're United fans, we know damn well what the press are like, and we simply don't listen to them. There was much more in this than just press bullshit, and even though we knew it at the time, Ronaldo later confirmed it himself. That'll be one of those times you convenient claim he meant something else...

You pay too much attention to the rigidness of words, and attempt to twist and contort them out of context to your meaning. What you're not so hot at is observing actions and behaviour. And sometimes what hasn't been said is as damning as what has been

Oh, and I notice you ignored completely my comment early about how Ronaldo could have ended this speculation within a few minutes, rather than the months it went on for. I even provided a short dialogue that could have been performed. The question, if you genuinely believe your version of events are aren't just arguing the toss for sport, is why didn't that dialogue happen?

 

[Rooney17]

It's just unbelievable how some people continue to slag or doubt a United player who gives a 100% on the pitch (even after coming back from injury) and is so instrumental in our attack. Why can't "fans" be just happy that the team is playing well and that we're winning? Some people worry too much for their own good.

 

[Merman]

He's spoilt.

I doubt it's anything to do with not wanting to play for us. He just likes to be the centre of attention, and IF he's sulking, it's because he's not king pin atm.

But maybe he's not sulking at all, just not feeling great yet.

Spot on. I made that point couple of pages ago too.

 

[Alex]

It's just unbelievable how some people continue to slag or doubt a United player who gives a 100% on the pitch (even after coming back from injury) and is so instrumental in our attack. Why can't "fans" be just happy that the team is playing well and that we're winning? Some people worry too much for their own good.

I completely agree, what do they want to do make out with Ronaldo

 

[fatboy]

Fact is you're now the one pushing an agenda. What United fans are doing right now is not detrimental to the team, not at all. What you're doing is, because it's divisive amonst our own supporters. Even if we're wrong about Ronaldo, we're doing it because we have the love of the club at heart. You'd think that would cut a bit more slack with folk

United fans who choose to reduce their level of support for Ronaldo at matches (compared to the previous season), will invariably make him feel unwelcome. By doing so, it will affect his level of motivation to do his best for the club. So it IS detrimental to the team.

It may not matter when a decent performance by the team overall, or an inspired Rooney or Berbatov is enough to win the game. But in the big Premiership or CL matches, a less than fully motivated Ronaldo may be the difference between a win and a loss.

SAF snubbed big money, even stomached a bit of wilful behaviour from Ronaldo, because he knows how vital he is to the continued success of the team. But trying to send a message to Ronaldo by reducing vocal support for him will alienate him, and undo all that Fergie was trying to achieve in the first place by keeping him.

There's more than enough time to heap scorn on Ronaldo when he starts playing for another club. But until such time, I don't understand why so many of you feel the need to make your (hurt) feelings known to him now.

 

[B Cantona]

United fans who choose to reduce their level of support for Ronaldo at matches (compared to the previous season), will invariably make him feel unwelcome. By doing so, it will affect his level of motivation to do his best for the club. So it IS detrimental to the team.

That's just horse crap. Did everyone else who didn't get the same adulation from the stands last season lose their motivation because of it? I just don't understand this notion that supporters are somehow obligated to give a particular player special treatment like that. He deserved it last season, he doesn't this, and he only has himself to blame. If he's so small that it actually affects his performance - remember, no-ones making things uncomfortable or unwelcome for him, simply choosing not to chant his name - then the lads buggered when he goes to Madrid, because they don't have the time for their players we do

 

[Feedingseagulls]

I think your problem is that you take Ronaldo's word as gospel, until he says something that doesn't quite match your version of events, where you then come up with some contorted reasoning that he must have meant something else, even though you can't pin down what that something else is. You certainly have no evidence to base it on, it's simply your own guess work.

You keep making the mistake of thinking we've been reading every word the press utters, and lapping it up. We're United fans, we know damn well what the press are like, and we simply don't listen to them. There was much more in this than just press bullshit, and even though we knew it at the time, Ronaldo later confirmed it himself. That'll be one of those times you convenient claim he meant something else...

I haven't contorted any reasoning to come up with my version. You have to arbitrarily decide that a whole bunch of very clear unambiguous Ronaldo remarks are false to help your interpretation - that's allied to relying upon an interpetation of what type of decision Ronaldo was referring to as occurring pre-Moscow.

That's contorting your reasoning.

If you want to claim, as you do, that nothing he says can be taken as true - then just why should we believe that particular interview to be true (and interpreted your way) and the other remarks false? Isn't it equally possible to believe the others true and your precious one piece of evidence false? *

Your decision as to which to believe is arbitrary - because it suits the story you want to tell - poor journalism on your part.

I don't deny he eventually wanted to leave - I do strongly doubt that he came to that decision as early as you claim - I suggested at the time (early season) that it seemed that some negotiations were ongoing about his future - a number of us suggested that this concerned the possibility of an improved contract - the suggested timescales: of a few days, and the timing: pre-Euro matched that in our view. Keeping his options open and mentioning (as he always had) his desire to play in Spain sometime also fitted.

(The idea of this being contract negotiations were, and are, a guess admittedly - but one that fitted the timing and timescales better than a move being thought of at that time.)

Madrid were then reported to be making a mega-bid and Ronaldo eventually said he'd be open to it - though we'd have to agree.

What we CAN say is that Ronaldo never clearly said he wanted to go this summer until after the tournament - he also clearly stated that winning in Moscow affected his decision.

That's why I think he did indeed make his decision later - simple, and in line with the evidence.

Regarding the reading of journalism - I'm fairly sure that you were one of those who referred to Ronaldo making a 'decision' about his future early on - that's when he'd explicitly stated this was not a decision - it was 'having something to say' or an 'announcement' - that's placing the journalist's re-interpretation of what Ronaldo said in his mouth to misleading effect. If those making this mistake included yourself, as I believe, then it reveals you may be more susceptible to spin than you claim.



* Though I don't think of it as 'false' - merely that your interpretation of it is skewed.

 

[FranklyVulgar]

I agree with Brad. What are the fans expecting to achieve by giving Ronaldo the same support apart from letting players know that they can treat the club anyway they like and still be adored?

Madrid fans are awful, if a player doesn't perform they let them know about it and it takes a lot for them to love a player.

Ronaldo had the adulation of the fans and was number one in their eyes, even when he was crap he would be sung for all day. Did this adulation affect his performances? I doubt it. Did it effect his attitude towards united and towards his career as a whole? I doubt it.

Ronaldo is a very confident lad and if any of you care to remember after the world cup when Rooney got sent off he was booed around the country, even in the 3rd place play off game in the world cup and all this seemed to do was spurn him on to play better.

Singing or not singing for Ronaldo won't affect his performances, he is too strong willed for that. He doesn't lack character which is what you are implying if you think a few songs are the reason he plays well.

 

[Feedingseagulls]

What you're not so hot at is observing actions and behaviour. And sometimes what hasn't been said is as damning as what has been

Oh, and I notice you ignored completely my comment early about how Ronaldo could have ended this speculation within a few minutes, rather than the months it went on for...

... The question, if you genuinely believe your version of events are aren't just arguing the toss for sport, is why didn't that dialogue happen?

I quote:

it seemed that some negotiations were ongoing about his future...

...Keeping his options open and mentioning (as he always had) his desire to play in Spain sometime also fitted [that interpretation].

This point has been made many times, by many people tbh.

Before you jump in and tell me he admitted later he wanted to go - yes of course he did - it's just that the majority of his remarks clearly place that decision later than what looked like a 'negotiation phase'.

Then there are the timing issues regarding having something to tell us:

That timescale [a few days] surely precluded it being any sort of announcement about a move - that would take much longer surely - also it seems inconceivable that a transfer of such a player would precede a major summer international tournament.

Ronaldo includes RM supposedly making a mega-bid for him as another factor in his decision - was this supposed to have happened before Moscow?

....

None of this therefore provides evidence that he'd decided to move before Moscow (or even pre-Euro) - in fact, his remarks indicate it would have been later that he made that decision.

....

I also note that you haven't responded to my point about who was being divisive here:

I'm not being divisive - I'm saying get behind the team including Ronaldo. It's those who want to make some emotional point that need to remember that team support is paramount.
...
You were the one [who] tried to create a division by complaining about fans who welcomed Ronaldo back remember.

 

[Feedingseagulls]

You pay too much attention to the rigidness of words, and attempt to twist and contort them out of context to your meaning.

I really felt that this sentence deserved a separate 'laugh at Brad' post.

Apparently I'm too focussed on the rigidity of words (their actual meaning I presume) - but also attempt to twist and contort their meaning.

Surely someone paying 'too much attention to the rigidness of words' would be the last person to attempt to 'twist', 'contort' or investigate real ambiguities in them - something of which you would like to accuse me.

 

[B Cantona]

I agree with Brad. What are the fans expecting to achieve by giving Ronaldo the same support apart from letting players know that they can treat the club anyway they like and still be adored?

Madrid fans are awful, if a player doesn't perform they let them know about it and it takes a lot for them to love a player.

Ronaldo had the adulation of the fans and was number one in their eyes, even when he was crap he would be sung for all day. Did this adulation affect his performances? I doubt it. Did it effect his attitude towards united and towards his career as a whole? I doubt it.

Ronaldo is a very confident lad and if any of you care to remember after the world cup when Rooney got sent off he was booed around the country, even in the 3rd place play off game in the world cup and all this seemed to do was spurn him on to play better.

Singing or not singing for Ronaldo won't affect his performances, he is too strong willed for that. He doesn't lack character which is what you are implying if you think a few songs are the reason he plays well.

Precisely

 

[Feedingseagulls]

United fans who choose to reduce their level of support for Ronaldo at matches (compared to the previous season), will invariably make him feel unwelcome. By doing so, it will affect his level of motivation to do his best for the club. So it IS detrimental to the team.

It may not matter when a decent performance by the team overall, or an inspired Rooney or Berbatov is enough to win the game. But in the big Premiership or CL matches, a less than fully motivated Ronaldo may be the difference between a win and a loss.

SAF snubbed big money, even stomached a bit of wilful behaviour from Ronaldo, because he knows how vital he is to the continued success of the team. But trying to send a message to Ronaldo by reducing vocal support for him will alienate him, and undo all that Fergie was trying to achieve in the first place by keeping him.

There's more than enough time to heap scorn on Ronaldo when he starts playing for another club. But until such time, I don't understand why so many of you feel the need to make your (hurt) feelings known to him now.

Agreed.

Brad can't do anything wrong in his own eyes though.

He's so like a spurned 'ex-' regarding Ronaldo that it's comic (tragically that is.)

 

[B Cantona]

I really felt that this sentence deserved a separate 'laugh at Brad' post.

Apparently I'm too focussed on the rigidity of words (their actual meaning I presume) - but also attempt to twist and contort their meaning.

Surely someone paying 'too much attention to the rigidness of words' would be the last person to attempt to 'twist', 'contort' or investigate real ambiguities in them - something of which you would like to accuse me.

You attempt to analyse words to the nth degree Feeding, because you take them as some kind of gospel truth. Irrespective of context. And then proceed to twist those words so the 'truth' fits your agenda. Which in this case is moistening Ronaldo's posterior with your tongue

Out of interest FS, you said the fans had spoke against Villereal. You said my claim that the raptuous ovation had come from the JCL's and their 'ilk' who don't usually get behind the team otherwise, was nonsense. Where do you stand on that now, given since then, like before, we've barely heard Viva Ronaldo

 

[B Cantona]

Agreed.

Brad can't do anything wrong in his own eyes though.

I've never, ever seen you accept you're wrong FS. Takes some balls to make a comment like that in the circumstances!!! I'm more than willing to hold my hands up when I've got it wrong, simply in this case, I'm spot on and the majority of United supporters, certainly those who support the team through their actions at OT, agree

 

[Pogue Mahone]

You attempt to analyse words to the nth degree Feeding, because you take them as some kind of gospel truth. Irrespective of context. And then proceed to twist those words so the 'truth' fits your agenda. Which in this case is moistening Ronaldo's posterior with your tongue

Out of interest FS, you said the fans had spoke against Villereal. You said my claim that the raptuous ovation had come from the JCL's and their 'ilk' who don't usually get behind the team otherwise, was nonsense. Where do you stand on that now, given since then, like before, we've barely heard Viva Ronaldo

Not really interested in the details of this debate but I am curious about the difference in the way he's been treated in that game and since.

Mid-week games usually have a higher proportion of local fans, with weekend games more likely to have "JCL's and their 'ilk'" (I'm guessing I belong in the 'ilk' category ) I'm just curious how come it was a mid-week game where he got such a rapturous welcome but barely a peep out of the fans since.

What's changed since then? Cause chances are, it's the exact same fans at the game. Was it because they're all embarrassed about the subsequenet coverage of Ronaldo's debute the Villareal game?

 

[Feedingseagulls]

I agree with Brad. What are the fans expecting to achieve by giving Ronaldo the same support apart from letting players know that they can treat the club anyway they like and still be adored?

Madrid fans are awful, if a player doesn't perform they let them know about it and it takes a lot for them to love a player.

Ronaldo had the adulation of the fans and was number one in their eyes, even when he was crap he would be sung for all day. Did this adulation affect his performances? I doubt it. Did it effect his attitude towards united and towards his career as a whole? I doubt it.

Ronaldo is a very confident lad and if any of you care to remember after the world cup when Rooney got sent off he was booed around the country, even in the 3rd place play off game in the world cup and all this seemed to do was spurn him on to play better.

Singing or not singing for Ronaldo won't affect his performances, he is too strong willed for that. He doesn't lack character which is what you are implying if you think a few songs are the reason he plays well.

The highlighted point seems sound - but I don't think anyone has suggested it'd necessarily affect his performance on the day directly.

Instead, we've rather suggested that it might contribute to him feeling unhappy, and to bring forward a desire to move. Of course - if he does become unhappy in himself thanks to these primadonnas - that probably would have a knock-on effect - it would probably affect him and his performances adversely.

Brad's also asking for rather more than just not giving him the 'start to finish' adulation he probably deserved last year though. He's pretty much campaigning for minimal support - only cheering for him when he scores etc. - and that briefly.

We could still do a lot more in terms of support before we come close to deifying him and (for those with issues) forgiving him for some imagined sleight.

How short is the loyalty of the fans who cannot still cheer a player who made a major impact on us winning the double last year? - because he had the gall to contemplate a move elsewhere.

Given that Ronaldo did little 'wrong' and only some things a few 'disliked' it makes them seem more like drama-queens than Ronaldo ever did I reckon.

 

[B Cantona]

Not really interested in the details of this debate but I am curious about the difference in the way he's been treated in that game and since.

Mid-week games usually have a higher proportion of local fans, with weekend games more likely to have "JCL's and their 'ilk'" (I'm guessing I belong in the 'ilk' category ) I'm just curious how come it was a mid-week game where he got such a rapturous welcome but barely a peep out of the fans since.

What's changed since then? Cause chances are, it's the exact same fans at the game. Was it because they're all embarrassed about the subsequenet coverage of Ronaldo's debute the Villareal game?

I guess embarrasment could be a factor, but then the crowd now is acting the same way as the crowd before. The only anomaly was that one game. I'd guess many sold out their principle, on the short term prospect of Ronaldo turning a frustrating game around. I'd also imagine quite a lot of people attending came specifically to see Ronaldo make his comeback, as it was announced a few days before. There's no hiding from the fact the reaction was massive, a usually relatively silent OT was almost as one in its reaction. That means many, many people who usually make no noise at all, felt the need to give it everything to welcome Ronaldo back. And to be honest, thats the kind of behaviour I'd expect of that type of supporter. At the same game, other than for Ronaldo, the atmosphere was crap. What gives? How is that supporting the team?

I think the true reaction of the OT faithful, the ones that vocally get behind their team EVERY game, shows where the supporters are at right now

 

[Julian Denny]

United fans who choose to reduce their level of support for Ronaldo at matches (compared to the previous season), will invariably make him feel unwelcome. By doing so, it will affect his level of motivation to do his best for the club. So it IS detrimental to the team.

You are right but, rather perversely, have you thought that perhaps this is what Ronaldo wants ? It might make his exit easier if the fans turn against him.

It may just be the cynic in me but there's soimething quite strange going on. I hope I'm wrong but there is evidence from his body language that the passion for playing for United has gone. He wants out and at the earliest time. At least he wants there to be no doubt that this is his last season at United before he joins his "beloved" Real. (Wouldn't it be ironic if Real then go into a barren few years both domestically and in Europe ?)

That's not to say he won't give 100% and that he won't continue to be a match winner for us. Whatever his agenda we must support him on the field provided he continues to give of his best. So far there's no indication that he won't.

 

[Ixion]

Instead, we've rather suggested that it might contribute to him feeling unhappy, and to bring forward a desire to move. Of course - if he does become unhappy in himself thanks to these primadonnas - that probably would have a knock-on effect - it would probably affect him and his performances adversely.

But we already know he wants to move, he tried to instigate a move this summer before any negative reception from the fans, in fact he did it at a time he was probably the most popular player at the club! Hes been treated like a hero now for a few years and he still wanted to leave, the fans appreciation of him seems to have no bearing on his desire to stay at the club.

Although I don't think the fans reaction to him has been negative or anything close, Viva Ronaldo might not be getting sung but hes still getting cheered more than most.

 

[B Cantona]

Brad's also asking for rather more than just not giving him the 'start to finish' adulation he probably deserved last year though. He's pretty much campaigning for minimal support - only cheering for him when he scores etc. - and that briefly.

I'm not campaigning for anything. I've stated I'm not singing it, I can't exactly stop anyone else from doing it can I? And yet they don't sing it either, funny that

Our debate has mostly been me displaying how your version of events this summer is nonsense, and how virtually no-one agrees with it

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I guess embarrasment could be a factor, but then the crowd now is acting the same way as the crowd before. The only anomaly was that one game. I'd guess many sold out their principle, on the short term prospect of Ronaldo turning a frustrating game around. I'd also imagine quite a lot of people attending came specifically to see Ronaldo make his comeback, as it was announced a few days before. There's no hiding from the fact the reaction was massive, a usually relatively silent OT was almost as one in its reaction. That means many, many people who usually make no noise at all, felt the need to give it everything to welcome Ronaldo back. And to be honest, thats the kind of behaviour I'd expect of that type of supporter. At the same game, other than for Ronaldo, the atmosphere was crap. What gives? How is that supporting the team?

I think the true reaction of the OT faithful, the ones that vocally get behind their team EVERY game, shows where the supporters are at right now

!s that even possible? The ovation he got involved 10s of thousands of fans. Could they really have all decided to go along and arranged tickets etc. just a few days beforehand?

 

[B Cantona]

But we already know he wants to move, he tried to instigate a move this summer before any negative reception from the fans, in fact he did it at a time he was probably the most popular player at the club! Hes been treated like a hero now for a few years and he still wanted to leave, the fans appreciation of him seems to have no bearing on his desire to stay at the club.

Be careful mate, if you speak sense like that, you might get embroiled in 10 pages of arguing the crap with someone who can't see the wood for the trees!

 

[B Cantona]

!s that even possible? The ovation he got involved 10s of thousands of fans. Could they really have all decided to go along and arranged tickets etc. just a few days beforehand?

The game wasn't a sell out by then, and as you say many folk can't make the weekday games and try to shift their tickets on. So yes it's entirely possible

I'm not saying that happened on a '10s of thousands' scale. The mass majority, in my opinion and as I've stated, were regular match goers who sit in their seats and don't utter a word of encouragement for their team. Except that night, when they gave Ronaldo a simply embarrasing ovation given his conduct

 

[Pogue Mahone]

The game wasn't a sell out by then, and as you say many folk can't make the weekday games and try to shift their tickets on. So yes it's entirely possible

I'm not saying that happened on a '10s of thousands' scale. The mass majority, in my opinion and as I've stated, were regular match goers who sit in their seats and don't utter a word of encouragement for their team. Except that night, when they gave Ronaldo a simply embarrasing ovation given his conduct

They were fairly fecking noisy on Tuesday night.

 

[Feedingseagulls]

You attempt to analyse words to the nth degree Feeding, because you take them as some kind of gospel truth. Irrespective of context. And then proceed to twist those words so the 'truth' fits your agenda. Which in this case is moistening Ronaldo's posterior with your tongue

Out of interest FS, you said the fans had spoke against Villereal. You said my claim that the raptuous ovation had come from the JCL's and their 'ilk' who don't usually get behind the team otherwise, was nonsense. Where do you stand on that now, given since then, like before, we've barely heard Viva Ronaldo

The thing is Brad, what I actually do is establish just what a phrase means and what it does not. I then don't need to 'twist' anything - if a phrase remains ambiguous - even given contextual backing - then we can explore likely meanings - still no 'twisting'. I can assure you that contorting the sense of your own or others' words is not a skill I employed during my philosophy studies - accuracy is rather more prized.

So when I see:

if we hadn't been European champions I probably wouldn't have even thought about going to Madrid. And there is something else that should be mentioned: I never wanted to leave against United's will.

... the meaning is quite clear: Winning in Moscow affected his decision. He would abide by Utd's decision about him going or not.

Similarly:

"When asked if he has made a decision regarding a move to Real, he replied: "No, not yet."

... he is clearly saying that he has not yet made a decision.

Neither of these involve 'twisting' or 'contorting' any meanings.

.....

In order to bolster your own version of events you simply dismiss these and other remarks as 'not accurate' (or false). Not because they are obviously so - but because they conflict with your pet theory about one ambiguous interview.

In that 'canonical' interview itself, placing your interpetations on some remarks means that Ronaldo is effectively seen to issue a contradictory remark in the same interview when he talks about the fans forgiving him once he scores a few goals. That should really have given you pause for thought about whether that interpetation was the only one or whether an alternative related one would fit all the remarks made.

Except, of course, that you simply disbelieve whatever evidence contradicts your theory.

.....

Re those that cheer and those that do not...

I pointed out that the timing of Ronaldo's return would have been a large factor (more so than the idea that OT was particularly full of JCL's that day).
Why, if it was JCL-related, have no other matches (of different types and slots) had a similar reaction?

I hoped it meant that most fans were more sensible than you - we still hear the occasional Viva - I'd like to hear more. Yet isolated fans only tend to respond to events on the pitch (or crowd) - where everyone shouts, whistles or whatever. They struggle - as has been noted many times in slightly different contexts - to start chants themselves. It's easier for a group of singers to get things going - probably the same people with such an over-inflated view of their importance to the team that they place their personal feelings of rejection first.

I have seen with my own eyes, however, that those who feel 'above' cheering and chanting for Ronaldo's goals are not necessarily those who lend vocal support throughout the game - and that those who do chant his name at such times include many very vocal supporters. Labelling people unnecessarily as 'JCLs/fanboys' or whatever is inaccurate and divisive. (Mind you - labelling you lot primadonnas is divisive as well - just accurate. )

 

[Feedingseagulls]

I've never, ever seen you accept you're wrong FS. Takes some balls to make a comment like that in the circumstances!!! I'm more than willing to hold my hands up when I've got it wrong, simply in this case, I'm spot on and the majority of United supporters, certainly those who support the team through their actions at OT, agree

See 'unlike' used as a peposition or conjunction.

Thing is Brad - you still - despite many efforts - haven't come up with a single thing that Ronaldo did that was 'wrong'.

That's wrong - as opposed to naive or something you disliked.

He may have deeply wounded your feelings about how you think a player should view Utd - but that's your problem tbh - get over it.

 

[Feedingseagulls]

Not really interested in the details of this debate but I am curious about the difference in the way he's been treated in that game and since.

Mid-week games usually have a higher proportion of local fans, with weekend games more likely to have "JCL's and their 'ilk'" (I'm guessing I belong in the 'ilk' category ) I'm just curious how come it was a mid-week game where he got such a rapturous welcome but barely a peep out of the fans since.

What's changed since then? Cause chances are, it's the exact same fans at the game. Was it because they're all embarrassed about the subsequenet coverage of Ronaldo's debute the Villareal game?

As stated - I think the state of our season and the state of the came - plus it being his 'welcome back' were large factors.

Since then he hasn't been on the best form which hasn't helped - so we haven't had major on-pitch impetus to generate major chanting.

Those who generally initiate chants in groups are probably too far up their own arses to start a 'Viva' or 'That Boy'.



To some extent I must admit to playing devil's advocate at times this year - because it is so apparent that much of the vitriol directed at Ronaldo comes from stupidly ill-directed emotions. Attempts to drag the attention back to the facts may be fruitless in some cases - but some value the effort.

 

[Feedingseagulls]

You are right but, rather perversely, have you thought that perhaps this is what Ronaldo wants ? It might make his exit easier if the fans turn against him.

It may just be the cynic in me but there's soimething quite strange going on. I hope I'm wrong but there is evidence from his body language that the passion for playing for United has gone. He wants out and at the earliest time. At least he wants there to be no doubt that this is his last season at United before he joins his "beloved" Real. (Wouldn't it be ironic if Real then go into a barren few years both domestically and in Europe ?)

That's not to say he won't give 100% and that he won't continue to be a match winner for us. Whatever his agenda we must support him on the field provided he continues to give of his best. So far there's no indication that he won't.

I think his body language is mostly about him being unhappy at his level of performance - despite that being understandable given injury and no pre-season.

It's been pointed out that he went through periods of dissatisfaction with himself before and the body language was rather similar.

 

[Feedingseagulls]

But we already know he wants to move, he tried to instigate a move this summer before any negative reception from the fans, in fact he did it at a time he was probably the most popular player at the club! Hes been treated like a hero now for a few years and he still wanted to leave, the fans appreciation of him seems to have no bearing on his desire to stay at the club.

Although I don't think the fans reaction to him has been negative or anything close, Viva Ronaldo might not be getting sung but hes still getting cheered more than most.

He wanted to leave if we agreed - but now he's staying - for how long we do not know.

Just because his adulation wasn't enough to prevent him being willing to move, that doesn't mean that pissing him off royally wouldn't make it damn sure he'd go asap, rather than possibly stay here longer. I don't think we are necessarily pissing him off at the moment - but the 'fans' could do so - it would then be a self-fulfilling prophecy for many of them.

This is effectively a new chapter in the Club/Ronaldo relationship - but it acknowledges the history. What the current plans are, we do not know. SAF talked about a new contract - but that's SAF!

What we can say is that the fans probably can have some influence on the way the story pans out - I'd like that influence to be positive. Driving someone away because he hurt the feelings of some drama-queens would not be positive for the club.

 

[Feedingseagulls]

I think the true reaction of the OT faithful, the ones that vocally get behind their team EVERY game, shows where the supporters are at right now

I think it shows how a group of 'fans' who have such an over-inflated sense of their importance that they think they 'are' the club are feeling. Rather a different issue.

Tbh anyone with the priority order 'Utd, Kids, Wife' is a social inadequate - I don't see them as repesenting the bulk of Utd fans.

 

[Jopub]

Its got to be said, as an observer in this, that if you think Ronaldo did not engineer a move to Real for most of this year (and probably previously) you'd have to have been living in some other galaxy

Fsakes its only Ferguson getting on his high horse that brought it all grinding to a halt and quite right too - Ronaldo's motivation in it along with his agent is as clear as fking day - right from the off

Anybody creating some scenario whereby he did'nt is frankly ...... off his rocker

 

[Feedingseagulls]

I'm not campaigning for anything. I've stated I'm not singing it, I can't exactly stop anyone else from doing it can I? And yet they don't sing it either, funny that

Our debate has mostly been me displaying how your version of events this summer is nonsense, and how virtually no-one agrees with it

Apart from those that do you mean?

A lot of the debate has been about the timing of a decision - and the variety of decisions he'd have made over the summer.

The more crucial element that has also been present is whether Ronaldo did anything that was actually wrong. Something you've been unable to show.

We know you disliked what he did - that might be enough to make you behave like a tosser towards him - don't dress it up as something it's not though.

Actually Brad you have criticised those cheering for Ronaldo - you have attached derogatory labels to them without any justification - you have expressed disappointment that the crowd behaved that way. That's rather more than just saying you choose not to sing for Ronaldo. You'd rather they behaved differently and have said as much - repeatedly.

A rather low-level campaign admittedly - but it's close enough for rock'n'roll.

 

[Feedingseagulls]

They were fairly fecking noisy on Tuesday night.

Don't talk sense to him - he'll explode!

Once again - there were good triggers for some of the noise at times.

 

[Feedingseagulls]

Its got to be said, as an observer in this, that if you think Ronaldo did not engineer a move to Real for most of this year (and probably previously) you'd have to have been living in some other galaxy

Fsakes its only Ferguson getting on his high horse that brought it all grinding to a halt and quite right too - Ronaldo's motivation in it along with his agent is as clear as fking day - right from the off

Anybody creating some scenario whereby he did'nt is frankly ...... off his rocker

So where do you obtain the definite information that Ronaldo had definitely decided to go so early in the year - to lay against his many statements that clearly place that decision post-Moscow?

Just curious.