PARK-A true unsung hero
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
So has the team, which is obvious when you consider our results in Europe 10 years ago to what we've managed in the last few years. We've had an incredible record in Europe these last 2 or 3 years and Park has been one of our most consistent performers throughout.
He's a versatile player who has been invaluable in our European campaigns and who has also put in a number of cracking performances in some of our big domestic matches (Arsenal at the Emirates this season being a good example) He has his limitations but he's been a great signing and thoroughly deserves his place in our squad.
When you come on here after he's been arguably our best player over two legs in which we inflicted AC Milan's worst European defeat ever and call him "awful" or "average" are you really surprised when you get some stick?
I have not denied he is a good signing Pogue. I'm just saying he's very limited and certainly over rated by many on here. Pretty much all of his attacking qualities are below what you'd expect of a United winger.
I also haven't denied that he "thoroughly deserves his place in our squad". On the contrary I agree. He IS a valuable squad player, but not because of his ability as a winger, for his ability to play like a defender in an advanced position. He's good for the big European games where we're trying not to condede, but when we're chasing a goal he's the last player I'd want on the pitch. In terms of control, shooting and crossing he's probably the worst of all our attacking players. Again, I don't see this as a controversial opinion, just an honest assessment of a limited footballer.
So you're describing him as someone who is not as good going forward as Rooney, Berbatov, Giggs, Valencia or Nani but who is useful because he's versatile, reliable and defensively sound?
I'd probably agree with that.
I think he's better going forwards than you imply because attacking football is about more than "control, shooting and crossing". His movement in the final third is really clever (which we saw when he found space in the box against Milan) and his short passing is accurate and intelligent.
But yeah, you're probably being fair(ish) in your description above. Which is exactly what you weren't being when you waded in calling him awful, or someone who should be at a mid-table club. Hence, you wound a few of us up.
He would be a a mid table team if he left us though.
At United he's a squad player. If he left us to seek first team football he'd end up at a team much lower in the table like Everton.
Do you think he'd make the strongest lineup of Arsenal, Chelsea, Spurs, City, Liverpool or even Villa? I very much doubt it.
That's a pointless question though. He probably wouldn't make the strongest line-up at United.
He'd improve all of those teams though, especially the ones that compete in the Champion's League.
I don't think it's a pointless question. The answer shows that he lacks quality and would find his level (as a first team regular) at a mid table club.
No it doesn't.
You're repeatedly ignoring his CL performances. He's a player who has excelled on the European stage for years now. This makes him a class above almost all mid table first team regulars.
Park was all over Pirlo, 'marking him out of the game' to use a cliche.* This really disrupted Milan's ability to play and contributed greatly to our victory.
As well as this, Park managed to contribute offensively very well, as well as simply 'keeping the team moving' when necessary.
It was the type of, very fine, performance that makes him very valuable to a top side (Logan please note). The 'galacticos only' approach really doesn't work, something Peter always conveniently forgets when praising the skillful and fast Arsenal side, and detracting from players of a type that help put his side to the sword (they'd help improve his own side too).
Luckily for us all SAF sees the broader picture.
* There was a lovely comment on the MUTV rerun to the effect that Pirlo must be sick of the sight of Park, and they would not be surprised if he was on the plane next to him on the way home.
As well as this, Park managed to contribute offensively very well, as well as simply 'keeping the team moving' when necessary.
It was the type of, very fine, performance that makes him very valuable to a top side (Logan please note). The 'galacticos only' approach really doesn't work, something Peter always conveniently forgets when praising the skillful and fast Arsenal side, and detracting from players of a type that help put his side to the sword (they'd help improve his own side too).
Luckily for us all SAF sees the broader picture.
* There was a lovely comment on the MUTV rerun to the effect that Pirlo must be sick of the sight of Park, and they would not be surprised if he was on the plane next to him on the way home.
I haven't ignored his European performances at all. On the contrary they are his biggest redeeming quality and I have stated this several times.
Regardless, a few good European games a season does not a great player make. He rarely sets the league alight and definitely not on a consistent basis.
If you were to think of a club where he'd make the strongest starting 11 for most league games you'd have to look a fair bit down the league table.
All players aren't here because they're excellent individually, it's because they complement the team. He's not here to be a threat in the box.
You'll never understand that though. Neither will Wenger, sadly.
Where have I ever said anything about 'galactico's'?
I too see the broader picture and have said several times now that he's a very good squad player, particularly for his abilities in European games. Which part of that are you not comprehending?
No, I just find it funny that you use Nani as an excuse to bash Park.
Park is no by any mean average. He's footballing brain is excellent, as Scholes said in an interview, 50% of football was played in the head. His awareness of space and his team mates position are one of the best in our club.
It's a shame he can't engage brain with body more often. It's somewhat useless to have a great footballing brain if your passing and shooting means you're unable to put it to good use.
That's where your argument is somewhat flawed.
When he was at PSV he was an excellent performer especially in the Champs League. In fact he was all over MIlan when PSV were extremely unfortunate to get knoeck out at the semi stage. He also played in a similar position to the recent games, more central than wide.
It was probably those performances that swayed SAF to go for him.
So I'd say he's had more than a couple of good games in Europe...besides you only need to have a few good games in Europe..you only play a few games
You're doing it again. You're talking crap. The insults will soon follow.
Park is a more than adequate passer of the ball.
He's also either scored a goal or hit the woodwork in each of his last three starts so his shooting is obviously reasonable enough.
Does Park give the ball away a lot or is there something else wrong with his passing?
If you're going to turn up late for the party, at least look back at which toys the other kids brought to play with.
https://www.redcafe.net/7713906-post153.html
Indeed.
In fact, as far as Park as concerned, it's a real struggle to come up with any poor games in Europe.
Last seasons's CL final is the only I can think of but our whole team fell to pieces that day and El Blanco Pele was just as ineffective playing a similar role.
I'd say his pass completion rate is probably quite good. But he doesn't often attempt imaginative passes and rarely puts crosses into the box. He keeps it simple.
On the other hand you've got a player like Nani who will often try a defence splitting pass and likes to put lots of crosses into the box. His pass completion rate is probably lower than that of Park, but he's attempting much more difficult passes.
The reaction when those passes don't quite come off is that a lot of people moan, but when he gets it right you get Rooney's second goal against Milan.
Edit: Park's passing actually seems to improve massively when he doesn't have time to think about it. During counter attacks for example he's often very good, but when he finds himself in space with time to think about his pass he often fecks it up.
Where have I ever said anything about 'galactico's'?
I too see the broader picture and have said several times now that he's a very good squad player, particularly for his abilities in European games. Which part of that are you not comprehending?
You set up your OTT complaint against Park by praising Nani's qualities in contrast. The same qualities you praise are what leads to over-reliance on skill/speed/invention players unless you include players capable of doing other parts of the game and having less wow-factor.
As Brwned said it's about how all the individuals complement the team, how they work together as a unit, whether the synergy is good or bad. So when Park is 'the key' to making the team work he should get praise rather than criticism for not being another Nani. Your posts suggest that you do not adequately recognise the 'water carrier' roles, even when filled by someone with many other creative qualities to add.
Players rarely get stick for misplacing a risky pass in the final third. Nani gets stick for fecking up really simple 5 yard passes in dangerous areas of the pitch. Massive difference.
Park's a bit like Valencia in that he's not as likely as Nani to pull off a piece of magic but he almost always finds a red shirt. Which is not a bad quality to have, when we've got creative players like Rooney, Berbatov and Scholes who can make the really penetrative passes.
What Park also does very well, is make intelligent runs that creates the space for our more creative passers to take advantage of. A good example would be our Nani-Rooney breakaway goals agains Arsenal. Park dragged the retreating Arsenal defenders out of position which created the space for Rooney to attack and Nani to find with his cross.
Park keeps it simple because he can keep it simple. Nani can't - he gives it away when he tries that, not imaginative passes, just simple 5 yard passes.
I don't think Park's more of a direct threat than Nani, I don't think anyone does, but it's a very close-minded view to take if you think that's the only thing that matters for the role.
I have said repeatedly that he has a valuable role to play in big games and is important to the team against tough opposition. It's possible to acknowledge a players role in the team whilst also acknowledging his limitations.
My post is about one player filling one role. Strange that you summise from that that I don't appreciate other 'water carriers'. Don't assume.
Mounting the defence of your Park-criticism as a 'praise Nani & slag the "limited" Park' exercise and, in the first few posts, simply complaining about him not having a particular attacking/creative style, whilst entirely failing to mention the good things he does, rather leads to you being interpreted that way tbh.
You also drastically underestimate Park's own direct contribution to our attacking play.
If he does it very well then it's all good.
Why do people love players who have a good work rate and track back and do all the dirty work? Because when the attacking side of the game fails, they can still rely on their defensive abilities to contribute to the team. Attacking minded players are criticised mostly because when these players fail to have a good attacking game, they don't make up for it at the defensive end.
I'm not saying all attacking players are like that, but those who are heavily criticised are those who don't carry out their defensive duties. Look at Ronaldinho against us. He was useless when attacking and even more so at defending.
Nobody would place Park in the same category as Nani in terms of dribbling skills, crosses etc. That's not where his strengths are. He brings other players into the game, creates space, tracks back etc. He's limited as Logan said, just as Nani is limited defensively. But it's not as if he has zero attacking qualities. If that were the case, a defender would be playing instead of Park.
Like I said in my previous post, Park is a great squad player to have because he brings something to the team which no other player in United have. People criticise Nani more because expectations for him are higher and they are naturally more frustrated because he doesn't bring what he is capable of often enough.
Is he overrated on here? Maybe? But that's not his fault and criticism should be given to the caf members who overrate him and not Park himself, especially when he's just put in a great performance and often brings what he's capable of (limited or not). At the price he was brought in for, I would say he's given more than his value to the team. It doesn't really matter if he left United and can't be a started for mid level teams. Real with all their superstars were dumped out of the CL.
A great team beats great individuals everyday. As long as Park makes the team great, I wouldn't care less if he's limited or not.
I'm not saying all attacking players are like that, but those who are heavily criticised are those who don't carry out their defensive duties. Look at Ronaldinho against us. He was useless when attacking and even more so at defending.
Nobody would place Park in the same category as Nani in terms of dribbling skills, crosses etc. That's not where his strengths are. He brings other players into the game, creates space, tracks back etc. He's limited as Logan said, just as Nani is limited defensively. But it's not as if he has zero attacking qualities. If that were the case, a defender would be playing instead of Park.
Like I said in my previous post, Park is a great squad player to have because he brings something to the team which no other player in United have. People criticise Nani more because expectations for him are higher and they are naturally more frustrated because he doesn't bring what he is capable of often enough.
Is he overrated on here? Maybe? But that's not his fault and criticism should be given to the caf members who overrate him and not Park himself, especially when he's just put in a great performance and often brings what he's capable of (limited or not). At the price he was brought in for, I would say he's given more than his value to the team. It doesn't really matter if he left United and can't be a started for mid level teams. Real with all their superstars were dumped out of the CL.
A great team beats great individuals everyday. As long as Park makes the team great, I wouldn't care less if he's limited or not.
What fecking quality does he lack? Do you not realise that every single player has strengths in different areas? Not one single player ever has been brilliant in every single aspect of his game. What Park lacks in skill he makes up in other areas. When it comes down to it, I'd have Park over Nani in the team 9 out of 10 times. Performances over potential performances, that's how I look at it. Park has shown time and time again, especially in Europe, that he is a quality player and he shows time and time again that he is deserving of his place in the team. He would be an improvement (squad wise) for every single team in the PL, especially those who play European football. Great signing, great pro, and he deserves his place. Performances prove that.
The job Park did on Pirlo is definitely being exaggerated. Pirlo was Milan's most influential player. He was spraying passes about quite well, I especially remember a bloody brilliant ball cross-field through-ball he played that Scholes would have been proud of.
He was let down by his fellow players - especially his fellow midfielders in Ambrosini and Flamini. Ambrosini was completely invisible (as he was at the San Siro). Flamini just went around fouling people, had no impact on the game.
That said, Park's overall performance was very good.
He was let down by his fellow players - especially his fellow midfielders in Ambrosini and Flamini. Ambrosini was completely invisible (as he was at the San Siro). Flamini just went around fouling people, had no impact on the game.
That said, Park's overall performance was very good.
No I expect every sinple player in the team to be able to dribble, shoot, pass and run the 100M faster than Usain Bolt.
I don't really see what's controversial about my opinion. I have acknowledge that Park is a valuable squad player and I have also pointed out what i believe to be his limitations.
I have made the point twice that if he left United in pursuit of a guaranteed starting place he'd find his level at a club like Everton. Nobody has countered that really so I'll assume I'm right.
I don't see what's wrong with giving an honest assessment of a player. From some of the replies you'd think I'd just pissed on his kids.
No I expect every sinple player in the team to be able to dribble, shoot, pass and run the 100M faster than Usain Bolt.
I don't really see what's controversial about my opinion. I have acknowledge that Park is a valuable squad player and I have also pointed out what i believe to be his limitations.
I have made the point twice that if he left United in pursuit of a guaranteed starting place he'd find his level at a club like Everton. Nobody has countered that really so I'll assume I'm right.
I don't see what's wrong with giving an honest assessment of a player. From some of the replies you'd think I'd just pissed on his kids.
Actually this has been countered on several occasions.
Did none of those posts register with you?
So basically you took my opinion on two completely different types of player, and used it to make a wild assumption, whilst completely ignoring the repeated assertion by me that Park is a very good squad player. Is that about right?
Atleast there is a song on Park but there is no song for Evra! He is truly our unsung hero!
Park isn't Unsung, he's Ji Sung!
Yes you countered it by saying "That's a pointless question" and insisting that "He'd improve all of those teams" while not actually responding to the actual question which was: Do you think he'd make the strongest lineup of Arsenal, Chelsea, Spurs, City, Liverpool or even Villa?
Benitez would love him.
And if Mancini had any sense he'd start there, I'm not sure he does though.
And if Mancini had any sense he'd start there, I'm not sure he does though.
Well what I meant he does not have a proper song that we can sing at OT. A song he deserves.
Benitez has his own Park in Dirk Kuyt. And he's actually more productive than Park so it's not certain he'd start there.
Where would you play Park at City? I wouldn't put him ahead of Bellamy or Johnson. Petrov would probably get in ahead of him too.
Christ, why do you need absolutely everything spelt out to you, again and again and again?
Here's a few concepts you really need to get your head around, if you're gonna keep on discussing Ji Sung Park:
- There's not a club in Europe with a squad consisting entirely of players who would all "make the strongest lineup of Arsenal, Chelsea, Spurs, City, Liverpool or even Villa"
- Unlike most of the lesser known squad players at other big clubs, Park is important enough to United that he is one of the first names on the team-sheet in all our CL games
- Befor he signed for United, Park was a hugely important player for a PSV side that went on a fantastic run in the CL - which will be one of the main reasons SAF signed him
- United's record in the CL since Park joined us is exceptional. Arguably better than any other club in Europe? (can't be arsed checking stats but we've got to be fecking close)
- The Champion's League is the competition in which the very best clubs in Europe compete against each other.
Now, take a moment to digest all of that. feck it, take several.
Bearing what you've just read in mind, why do you still keep crapping on about Park as though he's some sort of average footballer who will find his level at a mid-table Premier League club?
I mean, seriously, think about it for feck's sake...