Paul Pogba

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In terms of first team appearances, I don't think it's any coincidence that he looked good in a first-team cameo as the extra man in midfield against Stoke but mediocre in a game when he was needed/expected to do the nitty gritty in the Carling Cup game.

His potential is incredible but his basics still leave a lot to be desired.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
He's not ready to be starting for the first-team, that's for damn sure.

As for being too good for the reserves, he was probably the most talented player on the pitch tonight but was completely anonymous for long stretches. Petrucci was much more influential. It's all very well him knowing he's the best player on the pitch but he needs to start proving it, week in, week out, if he wants to make that next step up.

He'll always have a languid style but he's good enough to really stamp his authority on a reserve team match, which is something he's only done very intermittently this season.
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That was my point though, is he too good for this level, so he just strolls through games? When I watch him it looks like he can't be arsed, or that the game is beneath him and he just goes through the matches at half pace. Playing at reserve team level clearly doesn't challenge him, and players sometimes need a challenge.

Is he at an in-between level now where playing for the reserves is of little or no benefit to him, but he's not yet ready for the first team?
 
The Neviller said:
That was my point though, is he too good for this level, so he just strolls through games? When I watch him it looks like he can't be arsed, or that the game is beneath him and he just goes through the matches at half pace. Playing at reserve team level clearly doesn't challenge him, and players sometimes need a challenge.

Is he at an in-between level now where playing for the reserves is of little or no benefit to him, but he's not yet ready for the first team?
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I think he still has it all to prove for the reserves. Don't forget this is only his first full season at that level. A shame so many games got called off over winter really. Getting knocked out of the CC was really unfortunate for him too.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
In terms of first team appearances, I don't think it's any coincidence that he looked good in a first-team cameo as the extra man in midfield against Stoke but mediocre in a game when he was needed/expected to do the nitty gritty in the Carling Cup game.
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Yep. The reason I'm trying to hold judgement on him is that although he's looked comfortable, confident, and certainly not above his level, he's played against a well beaten Stoke and West Brom, both at home. As you say, when he's really needed to perform in tough circumstances, he didn't.

The rumour is that he wants first team football or he's off (or that was the case), for me, he isn't ready. But as Nevs said, he might be becoming too good for reserve team football, which for me sees his future for the next 12 months at a Blackburn/Bolton/Wigan side.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I think he still has it all to prove for the reserves. Don't forget this is only his first season at that level.
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Players don't always go through the route of playing youth football, then making a name for themselves in the reserves, and then getting the call-up to the first team. Some move straight into the first team squad, which I think would happen to Pogba if he signed his deal.

The reserve league in this country is of a pretty poor standard, as much as I enjoy watching it, and reserve football is pretty much youth football once they are too old to play at under-18 level. You don't often see first team regulars getting run outs at reserve level anymore. The majority of players he'll come up against in the reserve league will be the players he pissed all over at youth level last year. Where's the challenge for him playing in that league?
 
He found it a fair old fecking challenge influencing the game tonight. If that's because he can't be arsed the he needs to buck up his ideas.

Cleverley, Welbeck and Evans were all outstanding at reserve level. That's the blue-print. He should follow it.
 
The problem with Pogba is just his positioning really. I see him as more talented than Petrucci though Petrucci looks more like he could play in a two man central midfield because he has this positioning that Pogba lacks. I think game time will straighten this part of Pogba's game out and I wouldn't personally loan him out.

With regards to tonights game, he was brilliant for the first 50-60 mins. Some of his passes were scholes-esque. He's got back of tricks and flicks too which the other players couldn't deal with. As KingEric7 said, he could be world class once he irons out the problems in his game.
 
Yeah, every techical facet of his game is amazing for a player of his age. He's even a decent enough header of the ball. It gets me giddy thinking what he'll be like eventually, I just hope it's for us!
 
The Neviller said:
That was my point though, is he too good for this level, so he just strolls through games? When I watch him it looks like he can't be arsed, or that the game is beneath him and he just goes through the matches at half pace. Playing at reserve team level clearly doesn't challenge him, and players sometimes need a challenge.

Is he at an in-between level now where playing for the reserves is of little or no benefit to him, but he's not yet ready for the first team?
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He's not ready for the first team that's for sure. As for being too good for reserve level that he just strolls through games at half pace, if that's true then his approach to football and his development is pretty poor and he'll never fulfill his potential. Young players have to work hard to improve and demonstrate they deserve a chance in the first team, not just expect it to happen.

Cleverly, Anderson and arguably Jones are all young players who need game time ahead of Pogba, so if it's first team football he needs then he should go out on loan. Somewhere like West Brom or Norwich would be good options.
 
He's only 18 and the potential he has shown has been great already. Technically he's brilliant. He has a fantastic touch, great passing range and super technique when striking the ball. Add that to his physique and he has all the materials to become a top midfield player. He clearly does lack in the positioning aspect of the game, and he could perhaps stamp his authority more regularly on games but that should come with time and age and if his overall game does mature, much like Welbeck's is beginning to, then we have an utterly brilliant midfield player on our hands.
 
Makki said:
Isn't that a pretty general statement that applies to every single player in the world?

:)
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You can be below world class in an attribute without that attribute being a problem. Jonny Evans isn't world class in the air, for example, but his current level is by no means a problem.

That's probably the best way of saying it. Pogba has a definite issue with his off the ball work, but everything else relevant to his position is top-notch, meaning he'd be utterly world class, whatever that means, if he did sort out this problem.
 
pocco said:
The problem with Pogba is just his positioning really. I see him as more talented than Petrucci though Petrucci looks more like he could play in a two man central midfield because he has this positioning that Pogba lacks. I think game time will straighten this part of Pogba's game out and I wouldn't personally loan him out.

With regards to tonights game, he was brilliant for the first 50-60 mins. Some of his passes were scholes-esque. He's got back of tricks and flicks too which the other players couldn't deal with. As KingEric7 said, he could be world class once he irons out the problems in his game.
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I disagree about his positioning for a few reasons. We know the strengths to his game. If we'd have got Ronaldinho, would we really have sat there moaning about his defensive play - or rather lack of? So in that regard, I don't believe we should ignore what he IS good at. His fitness will help his mobility and games will help him and the players around him.

Basically I don't think it's as big an issue as it's made to sound. We've heard it about Patrice Evra, Rafael etc. It happens. I think it's more important to find the balance within the team. Other people compensate so that attacking players can have the freedom to express themselves.
 
Striker10 said:
I disagree about his positioning for a few reasons. We know the strengths to his game. If we'd have got Ronaldinho, would we really have sat there moaning about his defensive play - or rather lack of? So in that regard, I don't believe we should ignore what he IS good at. His fitness will help his mobility and games will help him and the players around him.

Basically I don't think it's as big an issue as it's made to sound. We've heard it about Patrice Evra, Rafael etc. It happens. I think it's more important to find the balance within the team. Other people compensate so that attacking players can have the freedom to express themselves.
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I sort of agree with you about we should be looking at his strengths, but positioning for a midfielder IS important.

Defensive play to an attacking player like Ronaldiniho for the teams he's played for isn't an issue (in England perhaps it might have been). Just like if you have a defender with worse finishing than Carroll, it's not really an issue.

A midfielder with poor positioning is more of an issue. But I think it will improve.

He's made 2 appearances after all. I'd rather judge in a few seasons time after he has time to play.
 
Striker10 said:
I disagree about his positioning for a few reasons. We know the strengths to his game. If we'd have got Ronaldinho, would we really have sat there moaning about his defensive play - or rather lack of? So in that regard, I don't believe we should ignore what he IS good at. His fitness will help his mobility and games will help him and the players around him.

Basically I don't think it's as big an issue as it's made to sound. We've heard it about Patrice Evra, Rafael etc. It happens. I think it's more important to find the balance within the team. Other people compensate so that attacking players can have the freedom to express themselves.
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I agree with focusing on strengths but when you talk about balance within a team, a midfielder with no concept of positioning is a bit of an issue.

I frankly had no idea where he was supposed to be playing/fitting when he came on yesterday. I think the only thing I did for the last 10 minutes was pay attention to him and I ended up as confused as I was at the beginning.

Definitely something to work on there.
 
Striker10 said:
I disagree about his positioning for a few reasons. We know the strengths to his game. If we'd have got Ronaldinho, would we really have sat there moaning about his defensive play - or rather lack of? So in that regard, I don't believe we should ignore what he IS good at. His fitness will help his mobility and games will help him and the players around him.

Basically I don't think it's as big an issue as it's made to sound. We've heard it about Patrice Evra, Rafael etc. It happens. I think it's more important to find the balance within the team. Other people compensate so that attacking players can have the freedom to express themselves.
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The Ronaldinho example doesn't work here. Defensive responsibility for a player of Ronaldinho's ilk isn't nearly as important as positioning is to a player in Pogba's position.

Pogba is a central midfielder and, as such, he must look to move towards the ball, especially given our insistence on a 2 man midfield. In order for a 2 man midfield to work, both midfielders must want the ball, and should be constantly looking to move towards it in order to distribute it to the forwards and wingers. If not, we'll have Rooney/Nani/Welbeck coming deeper than necessary to try and move play forward, meaning that opposing teams will then find it easier to defend against us given that we'll find it harder to control possession higher up the pitch in their own half. Further, we'll lose our attacking impetus given that these players will be less close to goal, and more knackered from doing the work that Pogba should be doing.

Basically, we'd have to change our formation altogether in order to accomodate him as he is now. It'd have to be 3 in the middle, and even then he'd be an impact player, which would be a huge waste given his facets (not to mention that it'd be at the cost of a winger or forward). Pogba is too gifted to be moulded into some sort of impact player that doesn't control the game - his passing, strength on the ball, close control and vision should be put to better use.
 
The Neviller said:
That was my point though, is he too good for this level, so he just strolls through games? When I watch him it looks like he can't be arsed, or that the game is beneath him and he just goes through the matches at half pace. Playing at reserve team level clearly doesn't challenge him, and players sometimes need a challenge.

Is he at an in-between level now where playing for the reserves is of little or no benefit to him, but he's not yet ready for the first team?
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He's the Black Berba.
 
I wonder if he'd be willing to move out on loan next season, a loan move to a lower-end PL club would do him wonders. Teach him to be responsible, etc.
 
How anyone thinks we have a relaistic shot in the Champions League with a midfield of

Carrick (good - not great)
Cleverly (Young and injury prone but exciting)
Anderson (really limited player and injured all the time)
Giggs (Class act tbf)
Scholes (Still good but not great as he once was)


Is insane imo.



We should sign Modric and possibly one other.
 
KingMinger22 said:
How anyone thinks we have a relaistic shot in the Champions League with a midfield of

Carrick (good - not great)
Cleverly (Young and injury prone but exciting)
Anderson (really limited player and injured all the time)
Giggs (Class act tbf)
Scholes (Still good but not great as he once was)


Is insane imo.



We should sign Modric and possibly one other.
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You are harsh on Carrick there but you make a good point

I think Cleverley can be a top top midfielder but we do need reinforcements

Preferably before the euros
 
Pogba is the most talented - but he is still a very inefficient footballer. Sure it looks nice with all those skills in the middle of the park, but it doesn't add anything.

Petrucci on the other hand looks much more mature - and he creates something every time he is on the ball.

So even if I rate Pogba in terms of skills and potential - I would still say that Petrucci should be closer to first team football
 
KingEric7 said:
You can be below world class in an attribute without that attribute being a problem. Jonny Evans isn't world class in the air, for example, but his current level is by no means a problem.

That's probably the best way of saying it. Pogba has a definite issue with his off the ball work, but everything else relevant to his position is top-notch, meaning he'd be utterly world class, whatever that means, if he did sort out this problem.
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nor is Rio, never mind Evans
 
lysglimt said:
Pogba is the most talented - but he is still a very inefficient footballer. Sure it looks nice with all those skills in the middle of the park, but it doesn't add anything.

Petrucci on the other hand looks much more mature - and he creates something every time he is on the ball.

So even if I rate Pogba in terms of skills and potential - I would still say that Petrucci should be closer to first team football
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There is a reason Pogba is being fast tracked to the first team, and petrucci is captain of the reserves and out of contract this summer.

Unfortunately Petrucci is going the way of Eikrem i think.

He is certainly a decent player, but i dont really see him getting any better IMO.
 
Adam-Utd said:
There is a reason Pogba is being fast tracked to the first team, and petrucci is captain of the reserves and out of contract this summer.

Unfortunately Petrucci is going the way of Eikrem i think.

He is certainly a decent player, but i dont really see him getting any better IMO.
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You seriously think so? The form he's been in he must be worth some first-team time soon.

I'd be gutted if Petrucci left without being given a chance - like I was when Eikrem left tbh :nervous:
 
Pogue Mahone said:
You don't see him getting better? Christ. Do you have any idea how much football he missed over the last few years?
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Of course i do, and thats exactly the point.

Hes had his footballing growth stunted massively.

He does seem a clever little player and has a good eye for a pass but he just does not jump out to me at being "potentially" one of the best in the world in his position.

But imo hes had to work so hard to get to the point hes at now, i dont see him raising that ceiling much more.

We all thought Eikrem would go on to be in the first team, but the coaches obviously new he was not really progressing.

I just think its the same scenario here, he is talented and seems a very nice lad - but will he be good enough to challenge our first team? im not so sure.

Hope im wrong though!
 
Adam-Utd said:
Of course i do, and thats exactly the point.

Hes had his footballing growth stunted massively.

He does seem a clever little player and has a good eye for a pass but he just does not jump out to me at being "potentially" one of the best in the world in his position.

But imo hes had to work so hard to get to the point hes at now, i dont see him raising that ceiling much more.

We all thought Eikrem would go on to be in the first team, but the coaches obviously new he was not really progressing.

I just think its the same scenario here, he is talented and seems a very nice lad - but will he be good enough to challenge our first team? im not so sure.

Hope im wrong though!
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Petrucci is similar to Fletcher. A lot of injuries at a young age can stall development but this doesn't mean they can't get their career back on track. He's more likely to show big improvements in the next few years than most of his peers. He's certainly come on in leaps and bounds this season.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Petrucci is similar to Fletcher. A lot of injuries at a young age can stall development but this doesn't mean they can't get their career back on track. He's more likely to show big improvements in the next few years than most of his peers. He's certainly come on in leaps and bounds this season.
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Perhaps so.

I dont want the lad to fail, if anything he deserves it the most with the way he was struck down with those terrible injuries so young.

You just get a feeling sometimes about players though, and i just have a bad feeling he will be thanked but moved on quietly this summer.

Either that or he will sign a new contract and then move up to the first team like pogba did this year.

Guess we will wait and see!.

Either way im glad Pogba seems back on track now, and he can really get his head down and crack on with his career.
 
pocco said:
The problem with Pogba is just his positioning really. I see him as more talented than Petrucci though Petrucci looks more like he could play in a two man central midfield because he has this positioning that Pogba lacks. I think game time will straighten this part of Pogba's game out and I wouldn't personally loan him out.

With regards to tonights game, he was brilliant for the first 50-60 mins. Some of his passes were scholes-esque. He's got back of tricks and flicks too which the other players couldn't deal with. As KingEric7 said, he could be world class once he irons out the problems in his game.
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I thought that when he came on the other night, he just kept running into congested areas, the opposite of finding space.

The pesimist in me thought 'great now he is staying he looks fecking clueless'.

Ravel did the same in one of his cameos. I think perhaps the nerves cloud their judgement, best not to read too much into it.

Pogue Mahone said:
Petrucci is similar to Fletcher. A lot of injuries at a young age can stall development but this doesn't mean they can't get their career back on track. He's more likely to show big improvements in the next few years than most of his peers. He's certainly come on in leaps and bounds this season.
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Lets see him sign a new contract before we get too excited.
 
Jimy_Hills_Chin said:
I thought that when he came on the other night, he just kept running into congested areas, the opposite of finding space.
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That's a very basic and misguided view on "finding space". Finding space doesn't mean moving into a literal empty space on the pitch, it means picking up positions where you are either available for a pass and have a clear pass in mind to follow or you have an opportunity to shoot.

It doesn't matter if you run into a space with 2 opposition players and 2 of your own as long as you are offering a beneficial option to them which Pogba was and is clearly shown by his passing stats.

It's actually what Scholes and Carrick do brilliantly, pick up a position where that might seem congested but a few short passes later and the ball is either worked into a comfort zone or is moving forward into a dangerous area as often when you get these congested areas in midfield, gaps appear in other places where a counter attack is viable.

I find it encouraging that he wasn't just trying to get into positions where he is "clear" as doing that is often how players find the game pass them by, the fact he was happy to get involved in the game is a great sign.
 
Pexbo said:
That's a very basic and misguided view on "finding space". Finding space doesn't mean moving into a literal empty space on the pitch, it means picking up positions where you are either available for a pass and have a clear pass in mind to follow or you have an opportunity to shoot.

It doesn't matter if you run into a space with 2 opposition players and 2 of your own as long as you are offering a beneficial option to them which Pogba was and is clearly shown by his passing stats.

It's actually what Scholes and Carrick do brilliantly, pick up a position where that might seem congested but a few short passes later and the ball is either worked into a comfort zone or is moving forward into a dangerous area as often when you get these congested areas in midfield, gaps appear in other places where a counter attack is viable.

I find it encouraging that he wasn't just trying to get into positions where he is "clear" as doing that is often how players find the game pass them by, the fact he was happy to get involved in the game is a great sign.
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I was referring to the times when he didn't receive the ball because he ran into congested areas and the pass wasn't on because of that!

I thought that he was poor, he was nervous and played it safe, hence the passing stats!
 
Jimy_Hills_Chin said:
I was referring to the times when he didn't receive the ball because he ran into congested areas and the pass wasn't on because of that!

I thought that he was poor, he was nervous and played it safe, hence the passing stats!
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As I said though, there's nothing wrong with picking up those positions, it's a positive thing that he was trying to, not a negative that it didn't work.

Overall I thought it was a good cameo from him.



Here's a video of all his touches, so it doesn't really show the positioning we are talking about but I still think there is some real maturity in his play there. His passes were all done with thought and he played exactly how he should have at 2-0 up.
 
Pexbo said:
That's a very basic and misguided view on "finding space". Finding space doesn't mean moving into a literal empty space on the pitch, it means picking up positions where you are either available for a pass and have a clear pass in mind to follow or you have an opportunity to shoot.
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And it's something Pogba needs to improve on. I'm saying this based on his reserve appearances and not just his cameos for the first team. A better way of explaining it is that Pogba needs to take more responsibility on the pitch to take that next step. By this I mean he needs to be looking for the ball more as sometimes he just jogs off up the pitch.

Last night, for example, he was playing CM and at one point in the game he was playing ahead of our left winger whilst our RB had the ball. He was way out of position and he should be the one collecting the ball off the RB and passing it around. He's one of the best passers we have in our whole squad, he needs to use that to his advantage.
 
Jimy_Hills_Chin said:
I was referring to the times when he didn't receive the ball because he ran into congested areas and the pass wasn't on because of that!

I thought that he was poor, he was nervous and played it safe, hence the passing stats!
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Fergie will have liked that performance and his safe play. He did what was needed of him instead of going out and trying to make a name for himself.
 
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