Paul Pogba

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Chabon said:
A possible contender for dumbest post of the year so far. Cleverley, Welbeck and Evans have been Manchester United players since there were an average of 11 years old. All now start for the club when fit, and most likely will do for the next decade. Sturridge and Mikel were both nicked from other clubs, both due to their own personal greed, in their late teens, and Mikel's on his way out anyway.
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Much like Pogba, you mean? Also stolen from another club.

Also, Evans is third or fourth choice CB and it remains to be seen where in the pecking order Cleverley is. McEachran might be in the exact same position when he hits that age.

Before the break of Cleverley and Welbeck our record with youngsters in that last decade between 2000 and 2010 wasn't really that impressive. O'Shea, Fletcher and Evans in ten years ain't really that much.
 
Sarni said:
Not really any worse than us at that over the last few years, are they? Sturridge and Mikel have got playing time, McEachran is on the fringes of the first team, they gave Mancienne a run but he wasn't good enough.
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Wow. Just.. wow.

Since it's OK to include players who had been bought then here we go (I'll still probably miss some players): Twins, Smalling, Jones, Evans, Cleverley, Scholes, Fletcher, Giggs, Anderson, Rooney, Welbeck. All players who are involved in the first team who have been bought young or come through our own ranks. Could probably include players like Amos, Fryers, Morrison, Pogba, Cole and W. Keane as well, as they've been involved in some games this season. What have Chelsea got?

Look at our lineup when we won 8-2 against Arsenal:
De Gea, Evra, Jones, Evans, Smalling, Anderson, Nani, Young, Cleverley, Rooney, Welbeck. 7 players in that starting 11 from the list above - I'd like to see Chelsea do that.

Fergie has also played his fair share of players who turned out not to be good enough, now that you mention Mancienne (who only played 4 games anyway). Gibson being the latest example.
 
Sarni said:
Much like Pogba, you mean? Also stolen from another club.

Also, Evans is third or fourth choice CB and it remains to be seen where in the pecking order Cleverley is. McEachran might be in the exact same position when he hits that age.

Before the break of Cleverley and Welbeck our record with youngsters in that last decade between 2000 and 2010 wasn't really that impressive. O'Shea, Fletcher and Evans in ten years ain't really that much.
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Well if you're including Mikel and Sturridge in that list, then simply put United blow every premier league club(possibly apart from Arsenal) in that regard.
 
Sarni said:
Much like Pogba, you mean? Also stolen from another club.

Also, Evans is third or fourth choice CB and it remains to be seen where in the pecking order Cleverley is. McEachran might be in the exact same position when he hits that age.

Before the break of Cleverley and Welbeck our record with youngsters in that last decade between 2000 and 2010 wasn't really that impressive. O'Shea, Fletcher and Evans in ten years ain't really that much.
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whats the problem Evans is still part of our first-team squad, there is no shame behind Rio and Vidic in the pecking order.

Cleverley will challenge for a starting position when fit, Scholes and Giggs can't play every match either.
 
These things go in cycles, you get a good bunch of Youth Players and you could have a lot of First Team graduates on your hands. I think we've hit a very gifted crop now. We've found a good balance of getting players in from abroad and maximising what we can get in the catchment area. The fact remains though that a lot of Youth Players go on to have good Footballing careers, maybe not here but at other places.
 
KM said:
Well if you're including Mikel and Sturridge in that list, then simply put United blow every premier league club(possibly apart from Arsenal) in that regard.
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I included them because they hold relevance to Pogba's situation, both transfered to Chelsea at roughly the same age as Pogba would. I forgot to add Romeu who has featured for them this season.

All I am trying to say is that Chelsea aren't particularly bad at giving younger players a chance.
 
ArmchairCritic said:
These things go in cycles, you get a good bunch of Youth Players and you could have a lot of First Team graduates on your hands. I think we've hit a very gifted crop now. We've found a good balance of getting players in from abroad and maximising what we can get in the catchment area. The fact remains though that a lot of Youth Players go on to have good Footballing careers, maybe not here but at other places.
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Indeed.

But I wouldn't just discredit Chelsea just like that because there have been some youngsters over the last few years who got a chance there. To say that they waste players all the time, like it has been suggested, is a tad unfair.
 
All right, we're far better than them but they aren't very bad, I was just being an idiot.
 
Gazza said:
Anyone been on the caf long enough to remember Neil Thomson? Watched the reserves a lot, knew his stuff... was convinced Mads Timm was going to make it for us.

And Djordic was getting all kinds of attention when he played in a few first team friendlies (and scored vs Celtic, that lob).... David Jones was really highly rated at the same time. Even Floribert Ngalula (butchered sp?) had a high reputation around then.
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LOL - mads timm - i remember NT saying we didn't need to look at this kid named kaka because we had this kid in the pipeline. feck me. jones is slower than me and n'gaula (whatever) was the next paddy v. injury or not he wasn't close. for every 5 or 6 "gonna make it" kids one maybe gets into the side most are sold before they get a sniff. for less than 3m.
 
Sarni said:
Much like Pogba, you mean? Also stolen from another club.
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There's a world of difference between a greedy little shit leaving the richest club in the world for the second richest club because the first wouldn't agree to his obscene wage demands, and a talented 16 year old leaving the French second division to join one of the best academies in football. Of course it appears Pogba may be just as bad as Sturridge...

Sarni said:
All I am trying to say is that Chelsea aren't particularly bad at giving younger players a chance.
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Compared to us they're awful, just look for the thread from a little while ago about Chelsea's youngsters.

edit: Didn't see your last post, sorry.
 
Sarni said:
Not really any worse than us at that over the last few years, are they? Sturridge and Mikel have got playing time, McEachran is on the fringes of the first team, they gave Mancienne a run but he wasn't good enough.
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Last few years?

Them Chelsea players compared to Jones, De Gea, Evans, Smalling, Welbeck, Anderson, Fabio, Cleverley, Macheda, Gibson, Rafael at United in last few years.
 
Richardson had a lot of chances.. Danny Simpson, Campbell got a few games and if we go back, Chadwick was our backup winger.

Mancienne had like 4 league games? Wow. Big chance that.

As usual with Sarni. He only sees the bad stuff.
 
mu77 said:
LOL - mads timm - i remember NT saying we didn't need to look at this kid named kaka because we had this kid in the pipeline. feck me. jones is slower than me and n'gaula (whatever) was the next paddy v. injury or not he wasn't close. for every 5 or 6 "gonna make it" kids one maybe gets into the side most are sold before they get a sniff. for less than 3m.
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Mads Timm I remember well, he had everything, think he even made him debut at 17 in a CL game. Was nailed on to make it... but he was a bellend of the highest order attitude wise, and started to believe in his own hype. Basically attitude problems ruined his chances, I am sure I remember Fergie saying something alone those lines in an interview at the time we released him (or he left).

Shame, he was a brilliant talent. Again, I hope Morrison is looking at this example... talent alone isn't enough to make it at United, one needs to have the temprament to go with it, or it's not worth a sod.
 
The Wizard said:
Mads Timm I remember well, he had everything, think he even made him debut at 17 in a CL game. Was nailed on to make it... but he was a bellend of the highest order attitude wise, and started to believe in his own hype. Basically attitude problems ruined his chances, I am sure I remember Fergie saying something alone those lines in an interview at the time we released him (or he left).

Shame, he was a brilliant talent. Again, I hope Morrison is looking at this example... talent alone isn't enough to make it at United, one needs to have the temprament to go with it, or it's not worth a sod.
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Wise words indeed, now we just need to break them down into words small enough to be understood by your average footballer,
 
some people seem to mix stupid with uneducated...l.

a lot of people call Rooney stupid, but as a en expert on tv here said. No stupid player can do the things he does - a stupid person would never make all the right decisions on the footballfield, it requires way too much intelligence for that
 
lysglimt said:
some people seem to mix stupid with uneducated...l.

a lot of people call Rooney stupid, but as a en expert on tv here said. No stupid player can do the things he does - a stupid person would never make all the right decisions on the footballfield, it requires way too much intelligence for that
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Its a peculiar anomaly. Some try to qualify it by saying "he has a good or great "football brain" as if vision and speed of thought only apply on the field.
 
lysglimt said:
some people seem to mix stupid with uneducated...l.

a lot of people call Rooney stupid, but as a en expert on tv here said. No stupid player can do the things he does - a stupid person would never make all the right decisions on the footballfield, it requires way too much intelligence for that
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I've always argued this.

Technically Wayne Rooney would be considered a genius for the things he's able do on a football pitch; the mental agility needed to take one quick look at a situation and then from that mentally visualise the various potential outcomes, picking then to play the ball so consistently into the right path so as to regularly initiate favourable plays for his team, all this mental calculation subconsciously and accurately rendered in an instant takes an extreme level of intelligence. Wayne Rooney is a genius of vision and skill, genius such as that of a master painter; and as you've pointed out, there's a big difference between intelligence and education; to an expert in the field of human intelligence a quality footballer would be considered much more intelligent than the vast majority of the disparaging public who believe those playing the game to be stupid.
 
Intelligence is all relative, he might be able to do what few others can do on a football pitch but he can't build a rocket ship or anything.

When people refer to footballers as being stupid they generally mean lacking in common sense, which I guess is forgivable considering the sums of money they have to throw around at an early age.
 
There is kind of a difference between artistic flair and academic intelligence. In terms of artistic flair the likes of Rooney and Morrison would put the majority of us to shame. In terms of academic intelligence, well maybe not so much. The third element is common sense. I know people who are academically brilliant, but ask them something that should be easy to solve that involves day to day life and they struggle.

I'd say Rooney has artistic flair and to some extent common sense, I mean he really has done a good job of maximising his money making potential in terms of merchandising and wages (irrespective of his methods in doing so). Unfortunately Ravel seems to lack academic intelligence and common sense, although I hope to be proved wrong.
 
Julian Denny said:
Its a peculiar anomaly. Some try to qualify it by saying "he has a good or great "football brain" as if vision and speed of thought only apply on the field.
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Unfotunately speed of though really only does appear to apply to wayne on the field, or he might have speedily thougt, hmmm only bad things can possibly result from shagging this hooker, and im so famous im not really likely to get away with it....
 
Watching Rooney on that United quiz made me think he's not all that stupid, he was definitely the most intelligent when it came to sporting knowledge.
 
lysglimt said:
some people seem to mix stupid with uneducated...l.

a lot of people call Rooney stupid, but as a en expert on tv here said. No stupid player can do the things he does - a stupid person would never make all the right decisions on the footballfield, it requires way too much intelligence for that
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Word. Clever ain't wise an' all that jazz. I don't think there's any real evidence to suggest there's an issue with Pogba's wisdom though. I'm sure he'll stay and he seems like a dedicated lad. Ravel, not so sure.
 
Sparky_Hughes said:
Unfotunately speed of though really only does appear to apply to wayne on the field, or he might have speedily thougt, hmmm only bad things can possibly result from shagging this hooker, and im so famous im not really likely to get away with it....
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So what you're saying is that intelligent people don't make mistakes in life?
 
Sir Alex: "The offer for Pogba is still there for the boy but his agent's never got back to us"
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Not looking very good this.
 
Where is that quote from?

Whenever I talk to people that haven't seen Pogba or Morrison play, they always ask me 'if they're that good at 18/19 then why aren't they playing?'. Given that Morrison is/soon to be 19, is this a question we need to be asking ourselves?
 
We could have asked the same question about Scholes and Beckham ?

Or another question - how come Michael Keane didn't play at our u-18 side ?

Or why isn't Josh McEachran playing for Chelsea

There are many reasons that can explain something like this....
 
lysglimt said:
We could have asked the same question about Scholes and Beckham ?

Or another question - how come Michael Keane didn't play at our u-18 side ?

Or why isn't Josh McEachran playing for Chelsea

There are many reasons that can explain something like this....
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Hasn't McEachran gone out on loan?

Scholes and Beckham's breakthrough were a bit before my time, what sort of similarities are there to how they were handled and how Pogba is being handled? I know Beckham went to North End, played 4 or 5 games, and was immediately recalled.
 
pocco said:
Hasn't McEachran gone out on loan?

Scholes and Beckham's breakthrough were a bit before my time, what sort of similarities are there to how they were handled and how Pogba is being handled? I know Beckham went to North End, played 4 or 5 games, and was immediately recalled.
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I remember some of them not been considered good enough or atleast ready for Man United at the time, Even after the double I seem to remember people wanted Beckham replaced down the right and it seems like we tried signing two right wingers that summer (Poborsky and Jordi Cruyff). In Beckhams case i would say it was the next season 1996/97 where he really stepped up to show just how good he was when he would have been about 21/22
 
pocco said:
Hasn't McEachran gone out on loan?

Scholes and Beckham's breakthrough were a bit before my time, what sort of similarities are there to how they were handled and how Pogba is being handled? I know Beckham went to North End, played 4 or 5 games, and was immediately recalled.
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He went out on loan this window. Think it was QPR or Swansea.
 
pocco said:
Where is that quote from?

Whenever I talk to people that haven't seen Pogba or Morrison play, they always ask me 'if they're that good at 18/19 then why aren't they playing?'. Given that Morrison is/soon to be 19, is this a question we need to be asking ourselves?
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They need to be ready in all senses. Pogba is not quite ready in the football sense, he has enormous potential and a great physique but he needs some maturity in his game. Training with first team pro's might bring him on a bit.
Morrison is not ready in the non football area. I understand there are some disciplinary issues with him. He also seems a little bit temperamental, which seems to be common in people who are outrageously talented. Georgie Best was never one considered as a model pro but he thrived in allbeit in a different era.
 
greater wall said:
They need to be ready in all senses. Pogba is not quite ready in the football sense, he has enormous potential and a great physique but he needs some maturity in his game. Training with first team pro's might bring him on a bit.
Morrison is not ready in the non football area. I understand there are some disciplinary issues with him. He also seems a little bit temperamental, which seems to be common in people who are outrageously talented. Georgie Best was never one considered as a model pro but he thrived in allbeit in a different era.
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That wasn't always the case. From 1963-1971, Best did everything and more that was asked of him. He put in extra hours on the training pitch, always turned up when told to, and was, in all respects, a model pro. All this changed in his mid 20s when he started hitting the bottle after the team started going downhill and Busby retired.
 
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