Paul Pogba

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But it's not about how good he could be but the principle he sets. If he gets his demands, having done nothing, and being just potential then why wouldn't any other young player that we've earmarked as a star not want the same? Why wouldn't any first team/squad player we have not look at that and think they should be getting more? If he had come in and done a Hernandez and had a great debut season then he could have earned a better deal, Welbeck looks like he's just done that. Players/Agents can't complain if someone has earned something, regardless if they go about it like a dick. When Rooney did his thing, no one else could do it because he's the undoubted star of the club.

If you give in to his demands then you set a principle that will echo throughout the club and at a time when player wages are spiralling out of control we should be looking to stick to our guns and not give in and just pay. There are always other players.
 
prateik said:
I'm fairly certain we have made him a decent offer..
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Reports (if they are true) indicate Juve will bag him on a 4 year deal on 20,000 a week. That is what a decent offer looks like IMHO.

prateik said:
If his agent wants 2m and he wants more than we are offering, and he gets it by threatening to leave, whats stopping Smalling, Evans, Jones, Welbeck from demanding 80k.
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The fact that none of them is in a position to demand it such a rise. Pogba in comparison, is just as good, we and he both know it, yet he has options. Options mean his position strengthens.

prateik said:
All full internationals. All first teamers. Age doesnt matter. There is a wage structure for a reason.
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Our wage structure will not be affected by giving a talent of his caliber a mere 20,000 a week....

prateik said:
If the demands were reasonable, we wouldve agreed on it by now. Its clearly not something the club thinks is reasonable. If that is the case, then I'd rather see him go than see us bend over for him.
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I don't buy that at all. You can't convince me 20,000 a week is unrealistic demands. There has to be something else we don't know stalling this deal.

prateik said:
Its still gambling on potential. not THAT much of a loss anyway.
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That's just consoling yourself really.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
Reports (if they are true) indicate Juve will bag him on a 4 year deal on 20,000 a week. That is what a decent offer looks like.


I don't buy that at all. You can't convince me 20,000 a week is unrealistic demands. There has to be something else.
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...
Thats it really.
I'm sure its more than just 20k for the player too. Guess we'll never know.
The club wont officially comment on a young players contract demands and his agent will give his version.

agree about the others I mentioned werent in a strong negotiating position, still, if its worth it, the club will agree. If there is more to it, guess we'll never know.
 
prateik said:
...
Thats it really.
I'm sure its more than just 20k for the player too. Guess we'll never know.
The club wont officially comment on a young players contract demands and his agent will give his version.

agree about the others I mentioned werent in a strong negotiating position, still, if its worth it, the club will agree. If there is more to it, guess we'll never know.
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True true
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
Reports (if they are true) indicate Juve will bag him on a 4 year deal on 20,000 a week. That is what a decent offer looks like IMHO.

The fact that none of them is in a position to demand it such a rise. Pogba in comparison, is just as good, we and he both know it, yet he has options. Options mean his position strengthens.

Our wage structure will not be affected by giving a talent of his caliber a mere 20,000 a week....

I don't buy that at all. You can't convince me 20,000 a week is unrealistic demands. There has to be something else we don't know stalling this deal.

That's just consoling yourself really.
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Players at United are being paid fairly.

Are you suggesting they aren't?
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
In sport Ash, you get paid what your talent is worth. Not merely what you demand.
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Well not here, we clearly value him at one price. Just like in the real world you don't always go to the highest paid job so in sport. If you want to play somewhere and know you will still get handsomely rewarded and know if you succeed that you will get rewarded as our club has continually showed, you're willing to let a bit of cash slip. If a little bit extra is worth so much to him now, before he's done anything then does he really want to play here? When the chips are down is he gonna give it all when the club is nothing more than a pay cheque? Character is what Fergie has always said is the most important thing in a player and if he does leave then he's showed his character.
 
Amir said:
In most sports you get according to what you've already proven and shown on the field of play.
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There are plenty of players we have bought who haven't proved it on the field of play yet we have either paid big money or big wages.

I don't see why Pogba is causing that much controversy. Unless he isn't actually that good...
 
Either way he is history. Good riddance and may whoever we bring into replace him become an even bigger asset to the club than Pogba ever could have been ala missing out on Ronaldinho and getting Ronnie instead.
Raiola obviously was sent by Nedved at Juve to have a secret meeting with the boy a good 18 months ago long before anyone had any clue he might leave and basically told him that he will get untold hidden benefits if he signs for Juve such as a fast track to the first team....maybe a mansion somewhere in the hills of Turin and possibly an untraceable couple of million quid signing on fee into a Swiss bank account on top of everything else. Im sure Fergie made him all kinds of offers to make him stay too but whatever Raiola was offering him before Pogba decided to dump his old agent for Raiola last year was too great to turn down. Either that or maybe he just fancies boning as many Italian birds as he wants in the near future!
 
Name Changed said:
Yep. If we keep him, we will win out in the long run. Lose him, and we could lose a possible top quality player and for what, nothing?
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The keyword in that sentence is 'possible'. If we were sure he'd become a top player, it'd be a no-brainer. As of now, I've never seen him boss a reserve game, let alone a Premiership game. However good he looks, he's still quite unproven.

I hope we're not being too rigid in applying some kind of formula dictating what a young player with very limited first team exposure can be paid. That's the only question.
 
Name Changed said:
There are plenty of players we have bought who haven't proved it on the field of play yet we have either paid big money or big wages.
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I'm not sure who you mean exactly, the likes of Veron or Berbatov have proved it on the field of play, just not for us. Pogba hasn't done anything for anyone.
 
Amir said:
I'm not sure who you mean exactly, the likes of Veron or Berbatov have proved it on the field of play, just not for us. Pogba hasn't done anything for anyone.
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Obviously I wasn't talking about the likes of Veron and Berbatov!
 
forevrared said:
Smalling had played all of about 2 games for Fulham when we signed him. Less than Pogba's played for us anyway. Jones was obviously more established, but Pogba would've been playing regularly in a side like Blackburn, as well.

It's more about club policy than this particular instance, it's as if you're punished for being home-grown.
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Smalling had played about 20 games for Fulham. Whether Pogba would have played for Blackburn like Jones did, which I doubt, isn't relevant. The point is that Jones and Smalling are good enough for the first team now, so they are entitled to a high wage. Pogba isn't close to having the same impact, so his wage should reflect this.

Whereas Jones has started more than Nani, Young and Valencia this season, Pogba didn't start a single game. As such he isn't entitled to a comparable wage. Pogba hasn't earned or proved anything yet and Ferguson obviously doesn't think he's ready, so comparing him to Smalling and Jones is pointless. They are both far better players, currently, who actually contribute to the first team.

In what way is he being punished for being home grown? If he was good enough he would get games and a chance to show he deserves a high wage, the same as any other player.
 
Theon said:
Smalling had played about 20 games for Fulham. Whether Pogba would have played for Blackburn like Jones did, which I doubt, isn't relevant. The point is that Jones and Smalling are good enough for the first team now, so they are entitled to a high wage. Pogba isn't close to having the same impact, so his wage should reflect this.

Whereas Jones has started more than Nani, Young and Valencia this season, Pogba didn't start a single game. As such he isn't entitled to a comparable wage. Pogba hasn't earned or proved anything yet and Ferguson obviously doesn't think he's ready, so comparing him to Smalling and Jones is pointless. They are both far better players, currently, who actually contribute to the first team.

In what way is he being punished for being home grown? If he was good enough he would get games and a chance to show he deserves a high wage, the same as any other player.
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When we bought Smalling he only had about 12 games for Fulham, Pogba has that at United. Worth much more and a troubled position for us.

The only reason to let him go would be if SAF does not think he will make the Grade in our midfield, otherwise it will cost us much more in the longrun.
 
DFreshKing said:
When we bought Smalling he only had about 12 games for Fulham, Pogba has that at United. Worth much more and a troubled position for us.

The only reason to let him go would be if SAF does not think he will make the Grade in our midfield, otherwise it will cost us much more in the longrun.
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When we agree to sign Smalling, he had actually played far less than that for Fulham.

Pogba probably has more experience now that what Smalling had when we agreed to sign him.

The point being that not every player is a proven player when we sign him.
 
Name Changed said:
When we agree to sign Smalling, he had actually played far less than that for Fulham.

Pogba probably has more experience now that what Smalling had when we agreed to sign him.

The point being that not every player is a proven player when we sign him.
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Agreed, I don't understand why a product of our youth is worth less than a Signing. What player would we sign and not offer £20k a week - including Youngsters for the Future.

Jones was similar to Pogba Last year, what is he on?
 
DFreshKing said:
When we bought Smalling he only had about 12 games for Fulham, Pogba has that at United. Worth much more and a troubled position for us.

The only reason to let him go would be if SAF does not think he will make the Grade in our midfield, otherwise it will cost us much more in the longrun.
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He played 13 league games, once in the FA cup, once in the league cup and 4 times in the EL.

It isn't relevant anyway, the point is that Ferguson thought he was ready for first team football at United, demonstrated by Smalling playing over 30 games in his first season. Hence, he deserves a better wage.
 
DFreshKing said:
Agreed, I don't understand why a product of our youth is worth less than a Signing. What player would we sign and not offer £20k a week - including Youngsters for the Future.

Jones was similar to Pogba Last year, what is he on?
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No...

Jones wasn't similar. He has played 36 games for us this season for feck sake. If Pogba was 'similar' then he would have started some himself, instead of sitting in the reserves.
 
I actually do wonder if we have place for Pogba right now. We already have two young midfielders who we need to give chances to so they can hopefully become top player soon in Anderson and Cleverley. I reckon giving chances to three, adding in Pogba, might just be too much. I think we might have to make a choice of two among those three. Because I think Carrick and Scholes will remain and we definitely need to add at least on and maybe two more central midfielders of a high quality.
 
amolbhatia100 said:
I actually do wonder if we have place for Pogba right now. We already have two young midfielders who we need to give chances to so they can hopefully become top player soon in Anderson and Cleverley. I reckon giving chances to three, adding in Pogba, might just be too much. I think we might have to make a choice of two among those three. Because I think Carrick and Scholes will remain and we definitely need to add at least on and maybe two more central midfielders of a high quality.
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He is a different type of midfielder than the other two though.
 
Name Changed said:
He is a different type of midfielder than the other two though.
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Sure. But basically I can't see us giving enough game time to more than 5 central midfielders. Anderson, Cleverley, Carrick and Scholes is 4. I think we have to add one more. Then there's Fletcher who will definitely get some sort of chance next season, albeit probably a small one.

And to not get someone would be pure madness given Carrick is the only one out of that lot who can defend properly. That means we can't really give Pogba any sort of assurance of what role he'll play next season unless one of Anderson or Cleverley gives way or Scholes retires.
 
Theon said:
He played 13 league games, once in the FA cup, once in the league cup and 4 times in the EL.
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Not when the deal was agreed and the money was splashed. He was absolutely unproven when we agreed to an 8-figure transfer fee.
 
getting a little off track with the homegrown/Pogba debate, but will happily take homegrown over any foreign import 24/7/365.

surely it means something to have a local, if not English, talent playing regularly (or at the very least fighting for a place) at a top English club? just look at our most recent Reserve side that we put out. was it 8, or 9, that were from Manchester or the surrounding area? that is the United way and that is a policy we should stick to, long after SAF departs OT.
 
Name Changed said:
Smalling was unproven. Was it 10 PL games he played for Fulham? Bebe was bought for decent money, and he was certainly unproven.
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That would be 10 PL starts to Pogba's none.

That's beside the point anyway. Why are you so convinced that Smalling and Bebe joined United on a higher salary than what is on offer to Pogba?
 
Raiola on Pogba: "As things stand now it is more likely that he goes away from Manchester. "If Pogba leaves Manchester it is not because of Ferguson. If Ferguson had not been there, he would have left already."


When Fergie goes we are fecked.
 
Relevated said:
Raiola on Pogba: "As things stand now it is more likely that he goes away from Manchester. "If Pogba leaves Manchester it is not because of Ferguson. If Ferguson had not been there, he would have left already."


When Fergie goes we are fecked.
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Raiola is so full of shit.
 
Nothing. Maybe he just realises thinks that saying positive things about the gaffer will somehow show him in good light when he's off.
 
From his procrastinatory behaviour I always thought he was likely to go.

But the interesting question is why? Apparently Juve place a higher value on our young player than we do ourselves. Why are they willing to offer him more?

Surely it can't simply be a matter of a sweetener to his agent. He's 19 not 9. Why would he allow his agent to determine his future.?
 
Will Absolute said:
From his procrastinatory behaviour I always thought he was likely to go.

But the interesting question is why? Apparently Juve place a higher value on our young player than we do ourselves. Why are they willing to offer him more?

Surely it can't simply be a matter of a sweetener to his agent. He's 19 not 9. Why would he allow his agent to determine his future.?
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As far as I understand we do not pay agent fees for renegotiating contracts anymore. If I remember correctly it was a policy that started after RVN's last contract, which his agent was paid 2m for renegotiating. I think that the policy preceded the Glazer's so I am not sure who drove it.

This policy would further explain the Bebe deal, in that we are paying our favourite agent for renegotiations of contracts such as Nani's (how much do you want to bet for a smooth renegotiation this summer?) only without actually paying for contract renegotiation and setting a precedent.

I think the real story here is that that Pogba's agent will get a handsome fee for arranging the transfer to Juve whereas he won't get anything for renegotiating Pogba's contract at Utd. Who knows what Pogba wants, we would be naive to assume that these young players, often from poor backgrounds, are not manipulated by their slick and powerfully connected agents who stand to earn millions from the deals.
 
I don't understand the complaints. We lured him to our club based on wages, as we've done with numerous youth players at smaller clubs - and those clubs have complained and in at least one case reported us. Now karma is kicking our arse and Juve are the team swooping in for youth.

We do this to other teams, why is it a big deal that a team would do it to us? And if a boy is willing to leave his home, his country, and his club to play for us and earn more, why wouldn't that same mentality apply to leaving for an even bigger contract?

Fair play to Juve. They've seen how he plays and they've seen that we trust him enough to make a few first team appearances, so they've put in a fair bid. It's a gamble, but we all know Pogba will be class if given the right training. For all the complaints around Juve, they do develop young players nicely.

Fergie is the last giant from a world when football wasn't about money, when managers were in control, and when players had very little if no rights and agents were merely parents looking to earn a few bob. His ways are stern and true and have led this club to successes never imagined. But those stubborn ways are going to cost us in some ways too. Like with Pogba.

Let's just sell him and move on and accept that fact Fergie was banking on Pogba and Morrison to step up this season and both have fecked away.
 
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