And your point is? Did you actually read what I was saying?
Pep Guardiola's Bayern
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And your point is? Did you actually read what I was saying?
I don't know if he is worth too much praise for this season, but this CL retention thing, is proving to be football's greatest nightmare.
Bayern Munich have had a truly brilliant season, all things considering. Anyone who fails to acknowledge this is an idiot.
If Bayern scored in the first 15-20 minutes at the bernebeu when they were well on top we could be talking about a completely different game here and we probably would be talking about how overrated ancelloti is and how tiki taka is the best. After bayern destroyed city people were praising it. People criticised pep after losing to inter in 2010 and that loss was sandwiched between his two victories in the cl. Too many knee jerk reactions. Pep is probably as good a coach as anyone imo.
Bayern is lucky they didn't lose this tie by double digits.
That would have been unthinkable under Heynckes' team.
I am comparing the before and after.
Guardiola deserves high praise for this season. Blitzing the league, domestic cup final, and Champions League semi-final. Now lets consider the fact Guardiola had the impossible task of following Heynckes' treble and the fact he has all but completely implemented his footballing philosophy. Truly a great accomplishment.
So many kneejerkers on here it's unreal, a couple weeks back when Chelsea lost to Sunderland some were telling us Mourinho was overated, bottling it at home, next thing he goes to Liverpool with a patched up squad and hes a God once more, this week its apparently: tiki-taka is overated shite and Pep is a fraud on the Cafe.
What evidence do you have to prove that Bayern actually radically changed their game this season? I have seen them in several games in the CL, crossing, shooting from range, scoring from set-pieces and lots of wing-play. How is that radically different to anything seen before? Sure they would have lots of possession versus teams that park the bus (10-man Arsenal, a weak United, minnows in the Bundesliga)
Also, your claim that they have been much lesser than previous season is not so readily obvious. For one thing, they walked their league even easier than last time, but of course, when top European clubs are willing to adjust particularly to frustrating your game, you will be suffering. Is that so hard to understand for some people. You are also forgetting that they were facing a rather good team tonight, and the first Ramos goal virtually sealed the game. That's knockout football. Bang! and you are out...
What do you mean by that, precisely?
Jesus mala, if u Don think Bayern have changed their playing style this season then you didn't watch them either this or last season
If by tiki-taka you mean the type of football that Barca/Spain tend to play, I can't see how Bayern were related to that tonight. Not any team with over 50% possession is a Barca replica.
I mean exactly what I said. Bayern under Guardiola have without doubt become more possession based this season, that isn't up for debate. Bayern were an incredibly flexible attacking unit last season, they'd a variety of attacking patterns.
No, I am not doubting that they have changed somewhat. But by how much have they? From what I recall, Bayern tended to be a possession team (again, that is not the same as Barca) for many years now. They may have increased that a bit this season, but I think that they are using all other methods as well, they are nowhere near as single-minded as Barca in their dedication to short passing, triangles, one-twos etc...
I'm referring to a thread in the mains United section, someone said the only reason Guardiolas tiki-taka at Barca was successful was but for the magic 3 and not the style itself having much to do with it. (aka overated)
I remember long-range efforts against City and Arsenal, scoring from headers against United, extensive wing play through Alaba, Robben, Ribery, Lahm. Scoring from set-pieces etc... All of that, in this season.
Do you honestly fail to recognise the significant alteration to Bayern's footballing methods this season from last?
Well, if we are being honest, without the well-known 3, a side as limited in physical terms as Barca, would never have had the success they did. Spain have also relied on an obsessive passing-game and iirc, they have not done too bad. But the argument becomes circular again, since they have Xavi and Iniesta and a few other highly skilled players. This is a bit of a chicken and egg story, isn't it?
I think they are exaggerated. Trust me, I have seen hundreds of Barcelona games over past few years and dozens of Spain matches as well. What Bayern tend to play has little resemblance. Bayern, as I noted earlier, are tremendously inferior compared to Barca in terms of moving the ball, but are superior in everything else. I still see them relying on many other things as well. They are a radically different team, even with Pep as manager. They still take long-range efforts, they still attack set-pieces (not so much tonight though) they play a lot from the wings where their best players are to be found, they score with headers as well as scrappy Muller goals.
Edit: They may exachange a 1000 passes or so against Bundesliga minnows, but Pep's Barca were able to pull that off against Europe's best at their peak, Bayern simply cannot be as effective in that department and are quickly pushed to the wings. Barca could be playing centrally for much more extended periods of the game.
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Of course, but this still doesn't change the fact that Guardiola has implemented his philosophy on Bayern and they remain a different side to last season, methodology wise.
Fair enough. I can agree with that statement.
Do you feel that they would have better chances playing otherwise, and if yes, why so? Well, if you can be arsed to reply to that question briefly, it would be greatly appreciated.
These sort of questions are really hypothetical. Would Bayern have won the CL last year with Ribery playing as he has the last months? The answer is clearly no.
Would another manager have been able to prevent this lack of form/decline for the most important part of the season? Who the feck knows.
Their best player in the team last year is currently on the verge of being benched. Ribery started great in the first half of the season so it isn't down to tactics either.
How good would Barcelona have been in their peak if Messi suddenly started playing so bad a lot of fans wanted him benched? If Ronaldo did the same for us during 06-09?
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I've no idea why you are going off on one. I just made a post wondering whether Pep asking them to play more possession football may affect the NT performances at the World Cup.
But, while we are at it:
1) Bayern have changed their style, yet those quotes from Pep indicate he is unhappy they haven't changed it enough.
2) They have been at the wrong end of some very embarrassing results, not something that coud conceivably happen with the previous side.
3) All that indicates is a side in transition, which will be necessary when Pep's track record indicates he wants to move on to something quite radically different. Change doesn't happen overnight.
I'm not criticising anything here, just wondering whether this affects the NT. If it does in a "positive way" (points to prove and all that) then it could bring pressure on Guardiola, particularly from the hierarchy.
I commend Guardiola for his philosophy, and strongly feel Bayern will benefit from maintaining the methodology. My leading point was that Guardiola has had an excellent season because they've won the league, made the domestic cup final, and the semi-final of the Champions League. This was in a season following Bayern's most successful, with a new manager implementing a new footballing approach.
Ever since Man Utd treble in 1999 we never replicate similar level of success, have Fergie and United been found out and became a failure? I don't think so.
By all means the success Bayern enjoyed this season after doing the treble is bigger than any team in past 20 years have ever managed. Guardiola has been a success so far, only those blind drama queen with personal agenda couldn't see that.
By all means the success Bayern enjoyed this season after doing the treble is bigger than any team in past 20 years have ever managed. Guardiola has been a success so far, only those blind drama queen with personal agenda couldn't see that.
They barely beat us... and we are a shadow of ourselves #thankyoudavidmoyes
But they would always win the Bundesliga, wouldn't they? The CL if we are being fair, and especially retaining it, is a totally different story. But I don't like to concentrate on the managers so much. I thought that the Munich players were rather poor tonight, beyond any tactics or style of play. The Madridistas proved superior, at least on the night.
You feel they should have had a stronger season?
The only problem stopping Guardiola's Bayern is that he now suddenly opts for a immobile low technique striker or workhorse at the CF position instead of someone who moves a lot and can play in the build up. I still don't understand why he just doesn't put Mario Gotze as his CF or even Robben.
Last season's Bayern lost twice to Dortmund, at least I think they did, in the league.
They also lost to Arsenal, 0-2 at home, a result which anyone bar the Arsenal fans, seemed to dismiss as a freak occurrence.
They came under extreme pressure from Dortmund in the final, with Neuer making some dramatic and crucial saves, including a penalty if I am not mistaken. They barely nicked it 2-1 in the dying minutes.
Their losses to Dortmund last season were potentially harmful, this year, their losses came after they had the league trophy in their HQ, and were fielding C-sides.
The only truly embarrassing defeat came last night. Losing 1-0 at the Bernabeu is nothing shocking, not even slightly.
You also seem to completely discount the vast difference between winning the CL in a novice manner, with actually retaining it. It is a radically different, and more daunting proposition.
AS for the German NT. They will play their usual game, despite the shared players, Bayern do not equal German NT, and Barcelona do not equate Spain NT. They are different entities.
You could ask nothing more of them in terms of domestic football. There I totally agree with you. The Champions League on the other hand, is a complete and total bitch of a competition. Everyone has been through embarrassment in the CL, Bayern this season, Barca the last, Chelsea the one before, Inter versus Schalke, United from Basel and Villarreal, Real Madrid for six years in a row and so on and so on...
So yes, there is a frenzy of kneejerkism for the time being, and on this I will have to agree with you.
If I were a Bayern fan I'd be more upset of the defending on the first two goals by Ramos. Dante got dragged onto Ronaldo on both set plays and Ramos got a free run both times. At first glance I blamed Dante, but after further viewings I'm not so sure.
I think Bayern would've won had they not been destroyed by those two set plays.
I think Bayern would've won had they not been destroyed by those two set plays.
It's a bad day, coupled with actually meeting an on fire Madrid.
Hardly any decline or disaster, they've sewn the league and on course for a double, and they've just won treble last season. Hardly that bad.
Hardly any decline or disaster, they've sewn the league and on course for a double, and they've just won treble last season. Hardly that bad.
He lost his friend recently. This team can be excused for losing.
I just wrote it in the match thread. We can talk for hours about tactics, but we had 15 corners in the first leg and did feck all with it and lost the return leg by conceding two cheap goals after set pieces early in the game. You need to get the basics right first, if you want to win a CL semifinal against a great team.
We maybe could have won the game or it could have been a draw, doubt we had a good chance to go through though. Real was excellent. Individually, tactically and they were much more disciplined.
I just wrote it in the match thread. We can talk for hours about tactics, but we had 15 corners in the first leg and did feck all with it and lost the return leg by conceding two cheap goals after set pieces early in the game. You need to get the basics right first, if you want to win a CL semifinal against a great team.
We maybe could have won the game or it could have been a draw, doubt we had a good chance to go through though. Real was excellent. Individually, tactically and they were much more disciplined.
Do you have the statistics for distance covered by any chance? I will check the UEFA website, now that I mention it.
It was not the goal from corner that started it. Even before that Neuer had started his clown show and gifted a chance to Bale which he put over.
No, don't really care about that.
Anyway. If anyone cares, I will post the following.
According to UEFA, possession was 64 to 36% in favour of Bayern.
Total distance covered by Bayern Munich: 112659 meters.
Total distance covered by Real Madrid: 109389 meters.
Average distance covered per game in the CL this season for Bayern Munich: 117600 meters
Highest distance covered by Bayern Munich in a CL game this season: 122474 meters
Somebody should tell Messi that!Average distance covered by Real Madrid in the CL this season: 110760 meters
Highest distance covered by Real Madrid in a CL game this season: 114396
So, I was right to think that Bayern were somewhat sluggish by their standards. Their intensity and workrate is one of their major weapons I feel (not intricate passing) and on this front they failed last night, since the figures clearly reveal that they run 10km less than their peak and 5km below their average, which I am sure includes lots of games against cannon fodder (Plzen, Moscow) and against ten-man Arsenal. Real Madrid were marginally below their average, probably due to their compact set-up and counter-attacking tactics, while they were less than 5km below their peak, again probably due to the reason mentioned previously.
If only we had a nationalteam manager who wasn't a poor man's Guardiola. Özil will seamlessly fit in with the pretty but inefficient football and he's our main man in attack.
Van Gaal did the same to us in his two seasons at the club btw, so the boring inefficient possession nonsense isn't new. Heynckes just balanced it wonderfully with classic German traits.
I still think we can pull it off, so despite the performances in recent weeks, I'm still excited about Pep working for a few more years at the club. He just needs to make sure, that he finds the right balance and includes our strengths more into his ideas. He should have a few long talks with Sammer, who surely can tell him a few things about German footballers
@Balu
Do you think Pep will remain Bayern Munich manager for next season? I think he will not, everyone is blaming him for the humiliation.
Do you think Pep will remain Bayern Munich manager for next season? I think he will not, everyone is blaming him for the humiliation.
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