Pep Guardiola's Bayern

[Shark]

Pep and Bayern aren't a good fit IMO. He has them playing like Barca, without Messi and their lack of shots outside the box is also an evident resemblance to his Barca side. The fans are going to grow frustrated, if they aren't already. It's too much of a change to their usual philosophy.

 

[Bob Loblaw]

Pep and Bayern aren't a good fit IMO. He has them playing like Barca, without Messi and their lack of shots outside the box is also an evident resemblance to Barca side. The fans are going to grow frustrated, if they aren't already. It's too much of a change to their usual philosophy.

No he doesn't. Don't know why people are saying they play like Barça. The way Bayern play under Guardiola and the way Barcelona played under Guardiola are nowhere near the same style of play. Maybe right to say the players he has at his disposal aren't suited to playing the way he's instructing them too though.

 

[Balu]

Enlighten me as to why you think that way? Just the other day Rummenigge said that he thinks Pep might stay for longer and the 3 year contract he signed is testament of that. He won't be sacked, we don't have Abramovich (no disrespect meant). No reason for me to argue over this, others have already explained why.

@Balu I missed your posts last night mate!

I didn't read back, but I'm sure getting drunk was better than trying to defend the team or the manager in the post match discussion on the Caf .

 

[Ruht]

I didn't read back, but I'm sure getting drunk was better than trying to defend the team or the manager in the post match discussion on the Caf .

Wish I could have got wasted myself, stupid exams prevent me from living properly!

Wasn't that bad though, comparing to what I had to witness on some Bayern forums. Made me remember reading one of your posts in which you mentioned why you don't go on there. Good choice, no doubt

 

[NoLogo]

I didn't read back, but I'm sure getting drunk was better than trying to defend the team or the manager in the post match discussion on the Caf .

Pff. As if Pep-bashing was a thing on the caf. You are making things up.

 

[JaffyJoe]

Short termism. If Bayern win it all next season everyone will be back on his bandwagon. He needs to modify his system and adapt to the players he has, which he will do (he has already started). I can see them coming in for Koscienly this off season.

Bayern missed Thiago and I don't think Schweni works as a #6 for Guardiola. This Bayern team will never be Barca and will never play tiki-taka the way they did.

 

[malappapper]

I'm not a Barcelona hater, I actually like(d) Barcelona. Their football this year is shite, though.

It's an ugly hybrid. How can I analogise their shiteness?

It's like a girl who's got a face like Shrek, but has got a supermodel's body. She's trying, but that face lets her down. Barcelona are trying, but in the end they just can't pull it off anymore.

What would the analogy for this year's United be then?

 

[redevil2]

Pep will definitely stay.

Bayern have to stick with him and see out the course of Pep's vision. But in my opinion they made a mistake in bringing a manager who has a different philosophy of a manager won the treble the season before.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

And now their goalie Neuer seems to be critical of their non goal scoring style of play... There will be much training session talk within the club from here on if Pep stays

 

[malappapper]

No he doesn't. Don't know why people are saying they play like Barça. The way Bayern play under Guardiola and the way Barcelona played under Guardiola are nowhere near the same style of play. Maybe right to say the players he has at his disposal aren't suited to playing the way he's instructing them too though.

You are the only member on a massive forum such as this one (other than me) that has noted that Bayern are nothing like Barca. Other than the high possession stats, there are precisely zero similarities between the two. In fact I would say that middling Spanish clubs such as Villareal and Valencia are closer to the Barca style of play than Bayern. The closest thing to Barca in world football, is the Spanish NT, for obvious reasons.

From most of the posts on here I have serious doubts over how many people actually watch the football they comment on. Lots of the comments about teams and their play, and even more so comments about particular players seem to be drawn from video games rather than anything else. Plus, all the clichéd statements made by the tabloid-style media are recycled as well.

 

[malappapper]

Enlighten me as to why you think that way? Just the other day Rummenigge said that he thinks Pep might stay for longer and the 3 year contract he signed is testament of that. He won't be sacked, we don't have Abramovich (no disrespect meant). No reason for me to argue over this, others have already explained why.

@Balu I missed your posts last night mate!

Just look at all the shit that is being thrown at him at the moment. Lots of people in Germany saying that he has destroyed Jupp's great team. Beckenbauer talking against him, plus many many others which I am sure you know much better than I do. Btw, who was it that said: "Pep hates German football?"

That is some nasty language right there. Even if he stays for next season, I sense he will be under severe pressure, and be shown the door with the first significant failure.

 

[Treble]

Pep's the best manager in the world. He'll prove it again, no doubt about it.

BTW, Bayern still could break the record for most points in a Bundesliga season. And they still could win the double. This is how Pep fails.

 

[antohan]

If only we had a nationalteam manager who wasn't a poor man's Guardiola. Özil will seamlessly fit in with the pretty but inefficient football and he's our main man in attack.

Van Gaal did the same to us in his two seasons at the club btw, so the boring inefficient possession nonsense isn't new. Heynckes just balanced it wonderfully with classic German traits.


I still think we can pull it off, so despite the performances in recent weeks, I'm still excited about Pep working for a few more years at the club. He just needs to make sure, that he finds the right balance and includes our strengths more into his ideas. He should have a few long talks with Sammer, who surely can tell him a few things about German footballers

That's what I was getting at. Not sure what was so hard to understand for that other chap rambling about how you are no worse than before. You don't take the German out of the German. Find a blend? Absolutely, but don't expect them to keep playing boring possession football as a defensive strategy, they'll quite naturally want to make something happen, it's hardwired, I don't think you can do away with that. Nor should you want to, which is where it alll hinges. If he tries remove the German out of them he will just lose support from Board and players, which is why their performances this Summer could be interesting.

True though, Yogi Bear will take care of that not being a problem. We hope.

 

[Balu]

Pep's the best manager in the world. He'll prove it again, no doubt about it.

BTW, Bayern still could break the record for most points in a Bundesliga season. And they still could win the double. This is how Pep fails.

Nope, not possible anymore.

 

[Lance Uppercut]

You are the only member on a massive forum such as this one (other than me) that has noted that Bayern are nothing like Barca. Other than the high possession stats, there are precisely zero similarities between the two. In fact I would say that middling Spanish clubs such as Villareal and Valencia are closer to the Barca style of play than Bayern. The closest thing to Barca in world football, is the Spanish NT, for obvious reasons.

From most of the posts on here I have serious doubts over how many people actually watch the football they comment on. Lots of the comments about teams and their play, and even more so comments about particular players seem to be drawn from video games rather than anything else. Plus, all the clichéd statements made by the tabloid-style media are recycled as well.

Have you considered the possibility that, in fact, you might be wrong?

 

[Treble]

Nope, not possible anymore.

Shame. Still not a bad season for Bayern by any means. Think that Ribery and Robben are not as good as they were last season and obviously that's a big problem. Particularly Ribery is not close to the standards from last season. Maybe the current style of play does not suit well his game.

 

[Lowkey]

Bayern are a good team. Rely heavily on Ribery and Robben. I don't think they are as good as people make them out to be. The defence is weak for a start. Do not rate Dante/Boateng. Have no world class striker.

Lewandowski next season? Will definitely be a better option than what they have at the moment. However, i don't see Guardiola being able to get the best out of a striker like Mandzukic/Lewandowski. Surely they don't compliment his style of play.

Pep will be fine. Last night was a nightmare. This Bayern team was there for the taking when we played them. Shame we are shite and missed some glaring opportunities. Real would have poo'd on us either way

 

[malappapper]

Have you considered the possibility that, in fact, you might be wrong?

To be honest, no, because I know very well what I am talking about. People just like to repeat all the lazy clichés they read in the press and hear from mediocre (if not downright inane) pundits. Having a high possession % does not make any team on the planet extremely similar to Barcelona, or even somewhat similar. Barcelona has players with highly particular characteristics and plays its possession game quite differently to any other team, and especially from Bayern. The passing of Barcelona is usually much shorter, more precise, and into and around far more crowded areas. It is also far more fluid and technically proficient. It goes through the middle much more often than Bayern's, who seem to knock it off to Ribery/Robben/Lahm/Alaba all the time on the flanks. Bayern have several weapons that Barcelona do not possess, like long-range shooting, height and physicality, scoring from set-pieces, scrappy Muller efforts, and scoring with headers. One only has to look at how they beat the English teams (Man City, Arsenal, United) Long-range efforts, headers, scrappy goals. Their workrate is also significantly higher than Barcelona's ever was. Bayern rely far more on traditional athletic traits, like height, strength, stamina and pace than Barcelona ever remotely did. Two seriously different animals for anyone who cares to notice.

If a team has high possession % + Pep on the dugout, definitely sounds very much like Barcelona, but not in this instance. I invite you to re-watch 3 games from Bayern's CL campaign of this season, preferably those against good teams, and also any 3 games of Barca (again against strong opposition) from the past 5 years or so. You will see what I am referring to.

 

[malappapper]

Bayern are a good team. Rely heavily on Ribery and Robben. I don't think they are as good as people make them out to be. The defence is weak for a start. Do not rate Dante/Boateng. Have no world class striker.

Lewandowski next season? Will definitely be a better option than what they have at the moment. However, i don't see Guardiola being able to get the best out of a striker like Mandzukic/Lewandowski. Surely they don't compliment his style of play.

Pep will be fine. Last night was a nightmare. This Bayern team was there for the taking when we played them. Shame we are shite and missed some glaring opportunities. Real would have poo'd on us either way

The way people went on and on about how Bayern had almost the best player in each position for a year now was quite ridiculous. Yes, they do rely heavily on those two (none of which is a spring chicken btw) and both were utterly ineffectual against Real Madrid, then people act surprised when they lost.

 

[Slevs]

Guardiola's biggest test is next season.

He needs to learn to adapt. Chelsea in 2012, Bayern in 2014. Tiki taka will not always win, can he adapt to certain games with certain conditions? I think he can. Yes he's a world class manager, but let's not forget he's still young and naive enough to think tiki taka can win every game. He'll learn, it's a long learning process for managers.

 

[Mockney]

They lost one game, in the semi-finals of the European Cup, to a very well managed team, who scored three goals from set pieces. This isn't the end of Guardiola, his style, or this team.

 

[Lance Uppercut]

To be honest, no, because I know very well what I am talking about. People just like to repeat all the lazy clichés they read in the press and hear from mediocre (if not downright inane) pundits. Having a high possession % does not make any team on the planet extremely similar to Barcelona, or even somewhat similar. Barcelona has players with highly particular characteristics and plays its possession game quite differently to any other team, and especially from Bayern. The passing of Barcelona is usually much shorter, more precise, and into and around far more crowded areas. It is also far more fluid and technically proficient. It goes through the middle much more often than Bayern's, who seem to knock it off to Ribery/Robben/Lahm/Alaba all the time on the flanks. Bayern have several weapons that Barcelona do not possess, like long-range shooting, height and physicality, scoring from set-pieces, scrappy Muller efforts, and scoring with headers. One only has to look at how they beat the English teams (Man City, Arsenal, United) Long-range efforts, headers, scrappy goals. Their workrate is also significantly higher than Barcelona's ever was. Bayern rely far more on traditional athletic traits, like height, strength, stamina and pace than Barcelona ever remotely did. Two seriously different animals for anyone who cares to notice.

If a team has high possession % + Pep on the dugout, definitely sounds very much like Barcelona, but not in this instance. I invite you to re-watch 3 games from Bayern's CL campaign of this season, preferably those against good teams, and also any 3 games of Barca (again against strong opposition) from the past 5 years or so. You will see what I am referring to.

Really? What are your credentials?

 

[Raul Madrid]

Imo all Bayern can do is look forward to the next game. I also think that they need to make it harder for teams to beat them, especially at home. I also think that instead of passing the ball so much they need to focus on crossing it more. I also think the squad is not good enough and that jupp heynckes would have struggled with it and that it needs 200 million worth of investment in it. See where im going yet

 

[Blasphemy]

They lost one game, in the semi-finals of the European Cup, to a very well managed team, who scored three goals from set pieces. This isn't the end of Guardiola, his style, or this team.

Is the correct answer.

 

[Blasphemy]

Guardiola's biggest test is next season.

He needs to learn to adapt. Chelsea in 2012, Bayern in 2014. Tiki taka will not always win, can he adapt to certain games with certain conditions? I think he can. Yes he's a world class manager, but let's not forget he's still young and naive enough to think tiki taka can win every game. He'll learn, it's a long learning process for managers.

Nothing always wins. SAF won the European Cup twice in about 20 attempts and we regularly ended getting knocked out with a bit of a beating. It's a really damn hard tournament to win.

 

[Ruht]

Guardiola's biggest test is next season.

He needs to learn to adapt. Chelsea in 2012, Bayern in 2014. Tiki taka will not always win, can he adapt to certain games with certain conditions? I think he can. Yes he's a world class manager, but let's not forget he's still young and naive enough to think tiki taka can win every game. He'll learn, it's a long learning process for managers.

A lot of people seem to neglect the fact that this is only his 5th season at the top level.

 

[Jimy_Hills_Chin]

They lost one game, in the semi-finals of the European Cup, to a very well managed team, who scored three goals from set pieces. This isn't the end of Guardiola, his style, or this team.

I am just as bitter as the next man so I quite enjoyed seeing Bayern and Guardiola humbled. My worrying love for Ronaldo made it all the sweeter too.

As you say, to suggest that this is somehow the end for Guardiola and his philosophy is simply ludicrous. His team are still on for a double, winning the league at a canter.

It is strange how you can find thousands of people defending and finding it acceptable that David Moyes sank the Champions of England from 1st to 7th in his first season; whilst you find just as many finding it totally unacceptable that Pep came up two or three games short of achieving the most remarkable feat ever in European club football in his first season.

It is a funny old game.

 

[Bob Loblaw]

Have you considered the possibility that, in fact, you might be wrong?

I know that was a response to mala but it was indirectly questioning my thoughts too, so I'd have to ask why you think Bayern play similarly to Barcelona? They're both possession orientated sides but beyond that there's not a huge amount of similarities - it would be like saying Dortmund and Real Madrid play the same just because both are lethal on the counter.

 

[Raul Madrid]

Ive said this before, but if Bayern took one of their chances in the first 20 mins of the first leg and we didn't score against the run of play then we could be talking about how overrated ancelloti is.

 

[Earthquake]

Imo all Bayern can do is look forward to the next game. I also think that they need to make it harder for teams to beat them, especially at home. I also think that instead of passing the ball so much they need to focus on crossing it more. I also think the squad is not good enough and that jupp heynckes would have struggled with it and that it needs 200 million worth of investment in it. See where im going yet

We could have been paid, rather than have to give the bollix money......

 

[Lance Uppercut]

I know that was a response to mala but it was indirectly questioning my thoughts too, so I'd have to ask why you think Bayern play similarly to Barcelona? They're both possession orientated sides but beyond that there's not a huge amount of similarities - it would be like saying Dortmund and Real Madrid play the same just because both are lethal on the counter.

I am not necessarily disagreeing with you. I just found it curious that someone would basically state that "everyone is wrong and I'm right."

That wasn't you, by the way.

 

[Deleted member 78215]

What would the analogy for this year's United be then?

Efficient machine is taken over by a child who does everything to make it malfunction.

 

[peterstorey]

Face of Shrek, body of Shrek, brain of Moyes.

 

[Deleted member 78215]

Face of Shrek, body of Shrek, brain of Moyes.

Possibly. We've got a good arse, just a bit of cellulitis (Cleverley) and we need a shave (Fellaini), BUT we do not need a Brazilian (Anderson).

I'm sure there's more.

 

[malappapper]

Really? What are your credentials?

Wouldn't it be more constructive, if you actually debated/argued the issue at hand, rather than questioning the tone of my posts and the way they might have been phrased?

Do you agree with the current mainstream view that tends to equate every team with high possession % to Barcelona? I am only saying that there is much more to it than that. You may agree or disagree with me, and we can leave it there.

 

[simonhch]

Folks are making some really sweeping generalisations out here based on ill-informed assumptions. It's just his first season there and managers need time to implement their style on the team - especially someone so obsessed with minor details as he is. He's done really well to win the Bundesliga + get to the semi-finals of Europe while adjusting to a new league, new players and a new culture. He's clearly experimented with a lot of different strategies and those things take time to bed in. It might not have happened this year but next year we'll definitely see improvements in Bayern. Also it must be taken into account that no team has ever retained the Champion's League so history was definitely against them. Not to mention their 2 best players Robben and Ribery are both over 30 and age is catching up with them.

BTW All this hatred for possession based football is rather disturbing to say the least. Football goes in phases and teams adapt to different strategies. eg. What worked in the 70s with Ajax didn't translate in later years. Every great team gets found out over time as teams started devising counter-measures. So to say that tiki-taka is dead just because you don't like it/ have an irrational hatred for it is mighty unfair. Need I remind people that this year boring useless possession based strategy ripped Madrid's counter attacking football to shreds in the 6-0 rout. And their dominance over us in the final at Wembley was probably the most one sided performance ever. Football is a constantly evolving sport - sometimes it's counter attack > tiki taka; other times it's totally the reverse. Styles of play don't become shit all of a sudden. It just need retooling. Some strategies just get recycled after a few years. Like the pressing fad that was originally Sacchi's concept at Milan and was later considered dead but has now resurfaced with every man and his dog paying emphasis to it.

Also the hatred for Guardiola is staggering. He has already achieved at 43 what most manager can dream of and has maybe 25 years left in the tank. He hasn't become a bad coach overnight based on one semi final loss. Every great manager has gotten trounced one time or the other - including Sir Alex, Jose, Sir Matt, Shankly whoever. That certainly doesn't mean they're inept. Now this is not a defence of him but all this knee jerking is rather premature. Now Ancelotti is being hailed as the best tactician and people are suggesting him as the next United boss for owning Guardiola when his fully stacked Milan of Maldini, Cafu, Nesta, Pirlo, Stam, Seedorf, Kaka, Shevcheno capitulated to freaking Rafa Benitez's rag tag group at Liverpool in spectacular fashion. Forget that they got hammered by Deportivo a year beforee that. Carlo ain't no Saint either.. Perspective people. No need to go overboard.

Thank feck for this post. I was starting to lose my marbles at some of the rank stupidity in this thread.

 

[malappapper]

Ive said this before, but if Bayern took one of their chances in the first 20 mins of the first leg and we didn't score against the run of play then we could be talking about how overrated ancelloti is.

Ancelloti has not received the hype that Pep has, and more crucially, Real Madrid were considered by many to be seriously inferior to the mighty Bayern. Just look at the opinions being expressed on this forum for many months now, claiming that Real Madrid always lose big games, them being overrated for not even making the final for so long (while the colossal German teams made so many of them) and so on and so forth. Lots of people views have collapsed on themselves and are now looking for culprits. If anything, last night's result, if anything, demonstrates how Jose was holding Real Madrid for 3 good year now, with his cowardly style play.

 

[JazzG]

For all this tiki taka failure talk their downfall yesterday was their poor marking on free kicks. Dante was to blame for both goals and after that it was game over. Up until that point Bayern had started strongly but those goals killed them. The principle is if you keep the ball long enough you won't need to defend but when teams spring on them it can leave them vulnerable, same story at Barca. They should have started with Martinez in the middle imo, Kroos & Schweinsteiger weren't gonna offer enough protection. From what I've seen when they have Lahm there he is very quick at winning the ball back as well but they didn't have that yesterday.

It might sound silly but I think winning the league so early hasn't helped really, players imo can't just switch on and off for matches. They've been in cruise mode in the league for weeks now and with potential CL and World cup matches coming up players won't go all out.

Pep's the best manager in the world. He'll prove it again, no doubt about it.

BTW, Bayern still could break the record for most points in a Bundesliga season. And they still could win the double. This is how Pep fails.

Exactly, I think it is a sign of the times when people are actually putting down after he has won the league in March and still having a domestic cup final to play for. Just like top class players are put down after one bad performance the managers get the same treatment.

Read he has won 16 of the last 22 trophies his teams have played for, that is frankly an astonishing record to have. Also it will take more than a season for him to fully implement his style of play at the club, personally I prefer a more quicker style of football but nothing wrong with his approach. Every method has it's pros and cons.

 

[Raul Madrid]

Ancelloti has not received the hype that Pep has, and more crucially, Real Madrid were considered by many to be seriously inferior to the mighty Bayern. Just look at the opinions being expressed on this forum for many months now, claiming that Real Madrid always lose big games, them being overrated for not even making the final for so long (while the colossal German teams made so many of them) and so on and so forth. Lots of people views have collapsed on themselves and are now looking for culprits. If anything, last night's result, if anything, demonstrates how Jose was holding Real Madrid for 3 good year now, with his cowardly style play.

I agree, too many people make knee-jerk reactions and make conclusions too fast. Im not sure I agree about mourinho though. Before him we were going out in the last 16 for 6 years in a row. He made us into much more of a team and improved us in so many ways. He definitely laid the foundation to this team. We have improved on it though in many ways, like signing bale who is better and faster on the counterattack than di maria and selling ozil who did not defend well or consistently has made us more balanced. Also having one main striker has made us better as benzema is more confident now and it has helped his form also. Ramos has been a big player for us at cb too and while he played there a few times before mourinho came he never looked as assured as he has done since mourinho put him there in 11/12. Modric also is a player who has been vital for us and he was a mourinho signing too. Funnily enough mourinho who is famed for being a defensive master never got us to be as balanced as we are now and to defend as a team so well and so consistently like ancelloti has and that is one of the bug ways ancelloti has improved on mourinhos work, by things like putting di maria in midfield as he is very good with the ball and is also hard working unlike ozil. Mourinho made some mistakes, but overall he did a good job and we are benefitting from that now.

 

[thepolice123]

Bayern were already a very possession based team from since 2 seasons ago. Guardiola simply added his own touch into it. The talks that he's making them play like Barca is silly. A simple look at the 4 goals they scored against us, 3 which came from direct crosses, will tell they are a different kind of team.

 

[malappapper]

Folks are making some really sweeping generalisations out here based on ill-informed assumptions. It's just his first season there and managers need time to implement their style on the team - especially someone so obsessed with minor details as he is. He's done really well to win the Bundesliga + get to the semi-finals of Europe while adjusting to a new league, new players and a new culture. He's clearly experimented with a lot of different strategies and those things take time to bed in. It might not have happened this year but next year we'll definitely see improvements in Bayern. Also it must be taken into account that no team has ever retained the Champion's League so history was definitely against them. Not to mention their 2 best players Robben and Ribery are both over 30 and age is catching up with them.

BTW All this hatred for possession based football is rather disturbing to say the least. Football goes in phases and teams adapt to different strategies. eg. What worked in the 70s with Ajax didn't translate in later years. Every great team gets found out over time as teams started devising counter-measures. So to say that tiki-taka is dead just because you don't like it/ have an irrational hatred for it is mighty unfair. Need I remind people that this year boring useless possession based strategy ripped Madrid's counter attacking football to shreds in the 6-0 rout. And their dominance over us in the final at Wembley was probably the most one sided performance ever. Football is a constantly evolving sport - sometimes it's counter attack > tiki taka; other times it's totally the reverse. Styles of play don't become shit all of a sudden. It just need retooling. Some strategies just get recycled after a few years. Like the pressing fad that was originally Sacchi's concept at Milan and was later considered dead but has now resurfaced with every man and his dog paying emphasis to it.

Also the hatred for Guardiola is staggering. He has already achieved at 43 what most manager can dream of and has maybe 25 years left in the tank. He hasn't become a bad coach overnight based on one semi final loss. Every great manager has gotten trounced one time or the other - including Sir Alex, Jose, Sir Matt, Shankly whoever. That certainly doesn't mean they're inept. Now this is not a defence of him but all this knee jerking is rather premature. Now Ancelotti is being hailed as the best tactician and people are suggesting him as the next United boss for owning Guardiola when his fully stacked Milan of Maldini, Cafu, Nesta, Pirlo, Stam, Seedorf, Kaka, Shevcheno capitulated to freaking Rafa Benitez's rag tag group at Liverpool in spectacular fashion. Forget that they got hammered by Deportivo a year beforee that. Carlo ain't no Saint either.. Perspective people. No need to go overboard.

Intelligent and balanced post in stark contrast with the hysteric knee-jerkism of some people with agendas on this forum.

I have recently gone through re-watching the 2005 final, and that AC Milan was not nearly as good as the names on its roster suggest. They got a shock early goal through Maldini, and then two excellent counters, aided by Liverpool being a bit shite, made the scoreline 3-0. They neither dominated nor controlled the game like we have seen with Barca/Bayern or Real Madrid last night. By the 2nd half, their ageing players started running out of gas, something which allowed a distinctly mediocre side, as you have rightly pointed out, to come right back in it. Now, how much of it is Ancelloti's fault? Who can possibly tell? All I can say for my part, is that while that AC Milan looks jizz-worthy on paper, it wasn't super-great. As for the Deportivo game, I would say that the Galicians were breathing fire in that game (I think Milan accused them of being on the juice at some stage) but still, it was embarrassing for both Carlo and his men to get hammered 4-0 after winning 4-1.