Pep Guardiola's Bayern

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I agree, too many people make knee-jerk reactions and make conclusions too fast. Im not sure I agree about mourinho though. Before him we were going out in the last 16 for 6 years in a row. He made us into much more of a team and improved us in so many ways. He definitely laid the foundation to this team. We have improved on it though in many ways, like signing bale who is better and faster on the counterattack than di maria and selling ozil who did not defend well or consistently has made us more balanced. Also having one main striker has made us better as benzema is more confident now and it has helped his form also. Ramos has been a big player for us at cb too and while he played there a few times before mourinho came he never looked as assured as he has done since mourinho put him there in 11/12. Modric also is a player who has been vital for us and he was a mourinho signing too. Funnily enough mourinho who is famed for being a defensive master never got us to be as balanced as we are now and to defend as a team so well and so consistently like ancelloti has and that is one of the bug ways ancelloti has improved on mourinhos work, by things like putting di maria in midfield as he is very good with the ball and is also hard working unlike ozil. Mourinho made some mistakes, but overall he did a good job and we are benefitting from that now.


Real's squad was nowhere its recent years' quality when you kept losing at the Last 16 stage, with the possible exception of 09/10, when Real were uber-unfortunate to lose to Lyon. It was either ageing and lazy Galacticos, or a team with Heinze, Metzelder, Cannavaro, Gago :lol:, Huntellaar, while Robben and Wesley were getting injured all the time.
 
Bayern were already a very possession based team from since 2 seasons ago. Guardiola simply added his own touch into it. The talks that he's making them play like Barca is silly. A simple look at the 4 goals they scored against us, 3 which came from direct crosses, will tell they are a different kind of team.

Bayern have been a possession team since at least 09/10, possibly earlier. Maybe a Bayern fan can help us here. Haven't done bad since then, have they?
 
Folks are making some really sweeping generalisations out here based on ill-informed assumptions. It's just his first season there and managers need time to implement their style on the team - especially someone so obsessed with minor details as he is. He's done really well to win the Bundesliga + get to the semi-finals of Europe while adjusting to a new league, new players and a new culture. He's clearly experimented with a lot of different strategies and those things take time to bed in. It might not have happened this year but next year we'll definitely see improvements in Bayern. Also it must be taken into account that no team has ever retained the Champion's League so history was definitely against them. Not to mention their 2 best players Robben and Ribery are both over 30 and age is catching up with them.

BTW All this hatred for possession based football is rather disturbing to say the least. Football goes in phases and teams adapt to different strategies. eg. What worked in the 70s with Ajax didn't translate in later years. Every great team gets found out over time as teams started devising counter-measures. So to say that tiki-taka is dead just because you don't like it/ have an irrational hatred for it is mighty unfair. Need I remind people that this year boring useless possession based strategy ripped Madrid's counter attacking football to shreds in the 6-0 rout. And their dominance over us in the final at Wembley was probably the most one sided performance ever. Football is a constantly evolving sport - sometimes it's counter attack > tiki taka; other times it's totally the reverse. Styles of play don't become shit all of a sudden. It just need retooling. Some strategies just get recycled after a few years. Like the pressing fad that was originally Sacchi's concept at Milan and was later considered dead but has now resurfaced with every man and his dog paying emphasis to it.

Also the hatred for Guardiola is staggering. He has already achieved at 43 what most manager can dream of and has maybe 25 years left in the tank. He hasn't become a bad coach overnight based on one semi final loss. Every great manager has gotten trounced one time or the other - including Sir Alex, Jose, Sir Matt, Shankly whoever. That certainly doesn't mean they're inept. Now this is not a defence of him but all this knee jerking is rather premature. Now Ancelotti is being hailed as the best tactician and people are suggesting him as the next United boss for owning Guardiola when his fully stacked Milan of Maldini, Cafu, Nesta, Pirlo, Stam, Seedorf, Kaka, Shevcheno capitulated to freaking Rafa Benitez's rag tag group at Liverpool in spectacular fashion. Forget that they got hammered by Deportivo a year beforee that. Carlo ain't no Saint either.. Perspective people. No need to go overboard.

Top post! Agree with this completely.
 
Real's squad was nowhere its recent years' quality when you kept losing at the Last 16 stage, with the possible exception of 09/10, when Real were uber-unfortunate to lose to Lyon. It was either ageing and lazy Galacticos, or a team with Heinze, Metzelder, Cannavaro, Gago :lol:, Huntellaar, while Robben and Wesley were getting injured all the time.
So bad for Madrid it was unreal
 
It is strange how you can find thousands of people defending and finding it acceptable that David Moyes sank the Champions of England from 1st to 7th in his first season; whilst you find just as many finding it totally unacceptable that Pep came up two or three games short of achieving the most remarkable feat ever in European club football in his first season.

It is a funny old game.

Bonkers. Some will be the same with Mourinho if he fails to win it. Though these are the standards for serial winners. In a way it's a compliment.


..But in another, more accurate way it's hyperbole.
 
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What I wrote in July:



I stand by that, even though the CL exit wasn't pretty. Making it to a CL semifinal is still a brilliant achievement and Sammer, Rummenigge and Hoeness know that.

That is a defeatist attitude. You had an awesome squad last season, added more super players in Gotze and Thiago to it. You should have been aiming to become the first team to defend the CL, such records are meant to be broken or made. Barca themselves under Pep should have defended it at least once.
 
A lot of people seem to neglect the fact that this is only his 5th season at the top level.

Exactly, he's still got a lot to learn even with all of his achievements.
 
Bayern have been a possession team since at least 09/10, possibly earlier. Maybe a Bayern fan can help us here. Haven't done bad since then, have they?
Everybody is a possession team but since 2011 the new synthesis is a mix of possession/counter as exemplified by BM last year. The countercunts have hit back this year as the BM mix has tipped over to possession+
 

Excellent article from Jonathan Wilson. Especially this part on the tenets of Mourinho's footballing philosophy is quite interesting.

In his controversial biography, Diego Torres explained the code Mourinho came up with at Real Madrid for handling games against high-class teams, particularly away from home:

"1) The game is won by the team who commits fewer errors.
2) Football favours whoever provokes more errors in the opposition.
3) Away from home, instead of trying to be superior to the opposition, it's better to encourage their mistakes.
4) Whoever has the ball is more likely to make a mistake.
5) Whoever renounces possession reduces the possibility of making a mistake.
6) Whoever has the ball has fear.
7) Whoever does not have it is thereby stronger."



As Wilson mentions Guardiola and Mourinho both employ extremely radical systems, maybe that's why they're so successful? (another random thought that popped into my head last night when Eto'o caused that penalty, that made it 3 penalties conceded by forwards for Chelsea when they were in total "bus-parking" mode in the latter stages of a CL campaign, remember Drogba in successive games in 2012?, guess that's an inherent risk of pulling all 10 outfield players into your own box :D).
 
Duncan Castles:

http://www.oneworldsports.com/stories/pep-guardiola-assessing-position-bayern

Pep Guardiola is assessing his options should he have to leave his position as Bayern Munich coach at the end of this season. The unexpected development in an already complex market for elite managers comes amidst aggressive criticism of the double Champions League winner's part in Bayern's 5-0 aggregate exit from this season's competition.

Among the limited number of jobs under consideration is the vacancy at Manchester United and a possible opening at Arsenal should Arsene Wenger depart. In France, Paris Saint-Germain's Qatari owners are yet to sign off on a new contract for Laurent Blanc, and Claudio Ranieri is under severe pressure at similarly high-spending AS Monaco.

While Guardiola's job is not said to be under immediate threat, a further embarrassing loss to Borussia Dortmund in the DFB-Pokal final on May 17 would see Bayern's hierarchy reassess his first year in the job. The Catalan was set an initial target of following last season's treble of Champions League, Bundesliga and German Cup by reaching the last four of the European Cup and retaining the German title, both of which he has achieved.

However, the humiliating and comprehensive manner of Tuesday's 4-0 home loss to Real Madrid, coupled with several sub-standard performances since the Bundesliga was retained at record speed, have drawn an internal critique of Guardiola's switch to the tactical system he refined at Barcelona. "Bayern is not right,” said honorary club president Franz Beckenbauer. “This is something that we have known for weeks. From August until the season restarted a few weeks ago, they played at the highest level and with maximum concentration. Then began a period of weakness and poor concentration that lasts until now."

Beckenbauer is no fan of the style of play Guardiola developed at Barcelona, labeling the coach's former team “unwatchable” and arguing that “possession doesn't mean anything when your opponents create the better chances." Guardiola's Bayern averaged 64 percent possession across the two legs against Madrid yet were held goalless in both. Though the former Germany captain and coach is now peripheral to the day-to-day running and strategy of the club, Beckenbauer's words are said to have upset Guardiola, who has grown tired of board members commenting publicly on his team.

Guardiola spurned approaches from Manchester City, Manchester United and Chelsea to agree a lucrative three-year contract with Bayern during the winter of his 2012-13 sabbatical season. At the time, neither the club nor the Catalan expected Jupp Heynckes to deliver both the Champions League and the Bundesliga, significantly complicating his succession the following summer.

United are again in the market for a manager, and although they have held extensive discussions with Louis van Gaal about succeeding David Moyes, the Netherlands national team coach was not their preferred choice for the job. Guardiola is both a better fit to criteria the Glazer family has drawn up for the appointment and of significantly greater marketing appeal to Ed Woodward, the club's commercial-minded executive vice-chairman. On Monday, though, United briefed media to expect Van Gaal's appointment next week.

Asked about the vacancy at Old Trafford ahead of the first League semifinal with Madrid, Guardiola distanced himself from it. “I am here,” he said. “I am Bayern, and I want to stay two more years to finish my job. We won the Bundesliga, but I feel the team can improve and make better. I know perfectly the style of the Spanish League and to change to Germany was not easy for me, and I need more time to feel this is really my team.”

The 43-year-old's exploration of options away from Bayern may ultimately act as a political move, serving to increasing pressure on the club to allow him to restructure the playing squad. Guardiola would like to exchange some of Bayern's established figures for individuals more receptive to a strategic approach that has become easier to counter since his last season at Camp Nou.
 
He wouldn't fit us very well IMO. Much more natural fit to Arsenal. I think he'd have trouble bringing his philosophy to our squad and it wouldn't sit well with our fans.
 
He wouldn't fit us very well IMO. Much more natural fit to Arsenal. I think he'd have trouble bringing his philosophy to our squad and it wouldn't sit well with our fans.

Disagree, we are as far from our usual characteristic Manchester United counter-attacking football than we have ever been. It would be easier at this stage (with our technical players) to play a more patient, possession based game than to try direct wing play with Young and Valencia
 
I think we are at a stage that we dont have a fixed philosophy and so I think any intelligent coach with a good philosophy can make his mark on the team very easily. Add to that the fact that we would be recruiting players this summer, we seem more malleable than ever.
 
Disagree, we are as far from our usual characteristic Manchester United counter-attacking football than we have ever been. It would be easier at this stage (with our technical players) to play a more patient, possession based game than to try direct wing play with Young and Valencia

We neither have the passers in midfield to suffocate, the defensive midfielder to swallow everything, the ball playing centre backs to retain possession from deep nor the creativity from wide areas. On top of that, Rooney and Van Persie both prefer to play in and around less congested areas than Pep's teams attract.
 



uh, what is happening here? is he just throwing his toys out of the pram a bit after they got beat so emphatically?
 
A coach has only his own idea. I can not train with the ideas of another coach before the players. So my players will play in the future according to my ideas. And after the defeat against Real , I am convinced about my idea even more.

We will play with my ideas . Otherwise I can not train here - if I had to say something I do not feel . That would not be good for the club and for the players who are very intelligent and intuitive. You would not trust me otherwise . And finally, the club must decide whether this is the best coach for the club with these ideas. But that is not my issue.

I am open . I speak to the players about my ideas. I have to adapt myself to the quality of the players. I have played in Barcelona with no real striker , here always with a sometimes with two strikers . I am very sad about it , but I have my ideas. Morning , against Stuttgart and next year we will be playing with my ideas . The board and the club must decide whether I as a coach am still the right thing.
 
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Oooo shits hitting the fan. Hold off on LvG Woodward! Pep might be available!
 
Is this real life? The man has guided Bayern to their fastest ever league title and has gone out of the Champions League semi-finals to Europe's in-form team at the moment, who also happen to be Real feckin Madrid. Oh and he's won 14 trophies in 4 years.

Surely all this talk about him being shown the door is utter BS, right?
 
Is this real life? The man has guided Bayern to their fastest ever league title and has gone out of the Champions League semi-finals to Europe's in-form team at the moment, who also happen to be Real feckin Madrid. Oh and he's won 14 trophies in 4 years.

Surely all this talk about him being shown the door is utter BS, right?
The papers have to talk about something. I do believe it is all BS, the board went through all that trouble to get him here and won't sack him after just 1 season. A season that has not been a failure by any means. He was also brought to improve the image of the club to the global audience, no way are they sacking him. Rummenigge adores him, just recently he spoke how Guardiola fits in with the club and that he can imagine him staying for more than the 3 years he signed for. I don't believe they will act so rashly and get rid of him.

Just when I was thinking that we have finally got rid of that fecking "FC Hollywood" tag and it might come back and bite us in the ass again, brilliant! :lol:
 
he's right though. all this bitching behind the scenes only serves to destabilise the authority of the manager. and if the players don't buy into the manager's system, everything falls apart. it's exactly what happened with us.

he is reaffirming his position. he's a strong character, and i respect that. if the club don't like his system (and they knew exactly what they were getting themselves into) then they should change managers. it all makes sense.

still, they won't get rid of him. he just needs to stay there for 2 more years, and then the United job will be available. :)
 
If this is the beggining of him leaving Bayern, I firmly believe the only destination for him will be back to Barca. Weve already decided on Van Gaal who would suit our philosophy much better than Guardiola.
 
he's right though. all this bitching behind the scenes only serves to destabilise the authority of the manager. and if the players don't buy into the manager's system, everything falls apart. it's exactly what happened with us.

he is reaffirming his position. he's a strong character, and i respect that. if the club don't like his system (and they knew exactly what they were getting themselves into) then they should change managers. it all makes sense.

still, they won't get rid of him. he just needs to stay there for 2 more years, and then the United job will be available. :)

Imagine the turnover of players needed at United for his principles to work. the embarrassment of diversity withing that bayern squad is unsurpassed and its still not a shoe in. We really would be talking wholesale purchases if Pep came in....and many years to get it clicking....
 
I think Van Gaal will go a long way at bridging the gap between where we are now, and a hypothetical Pep in 2 years.
 
it sounds worse than it is; a bit out of context. Nobody in the club ever questioned him; Sammer and Rummenigge are 100% behind him and there is no way he is in danger. I think the comments are addressed to the players. He wont care about personal sentiment next season anymore.
I think the most importaint sentence is:
"Aber ich muss entscheiden, was das Beste für die ganze Mannschaft ist. Jeder Spieler will mit seinen eigenen Ideen spielen, aber das geht nicht."
= "I have to decide whats best for the team. Every player wants to play according to his own ideas, but thats not possible. "

Eventually he also wants to make sure, that the management doesnt interfere which players he uses.
 
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he's right though. all this bitching behind the scenes only serves to destabilise the authority of the manager. and if the players don't buy into the manager's system, everything falls apart. it's exactly what happened with us.

he is reaffirming his position. he's a strong character, and i respect that. if the club don't like his system (and they knew exactly what they were getting themselves into) then they should change managers. it all makes sense.

still, they won't get rid of him. he just needs to stay there for 2 more years, and then the United job will be available. :)
Fully agree, yet it's interesting to see how he will handle his players next season. His authority has never been questioned before, it's the first time he finds himself in a situation such as this.

At Barcelona his good relationship with the star players helped him a lot to get them playing the way they did. He even decided to sell Toure because Messi, Xavi and co. wanted their buddy Busquets to play as DM.

I presume he wants to achieve something like that at Bayern too. I remember he used to say, during the pre-season, how important Gotze is for his plans. I'm not saying he won't improve his team next season (i believe they'll be way better next season), but Gotze telling the press that he's not happy at the club right now, is a first for Guardiola and quite strange for a club of Bayern's structure.


http://www.sportsmole.co.uk/football/bayern-munich/news/gotze-unhappy-at-bayern_152887.html
 
Pep will end up back at Barcelona next season.

There's not a chance Guardiola will return to Barcelona while their current board remain in power. Just like how Cruyff won't be officially associated with Barcelona under the current board.
 
I think if Pep was to go back to Barca he would stay there for a long time. i think he intends to do a bit of a Mourinho and test himself in different leagues, before going back to Spain. i'm very confident he will want to manage in England eventually, and i would say it's highly likely England will be his next destination. if you've managed Barca and Bayern, it really only makes sense to add United to that list, in terms of pedigree. but, we'll see.
 
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