Pep Guardiola's Bayern

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The burden of proof is used in the exact opposite scenario mate. :lol: If it worked like this the criminal would be guilty until proven innocent, so the one with the burden of proof is the people claiming Pep made the team worse than if Heynkes would have continued. If Ribery had been out of form in the entire knock-out stages in 12-13 then I don't think they would have actually won it, instead Ribery was in the form of his life and came third in the player of the year award thanks to it.

If Guardiola had that Ribery for his knock-out stages then they would most likely have performed at a different level. It isn't about Ribery not suiting the tactics either as he was outstanding in the first half of the season under Guardiola's tactics.
There was a big change in tactics and playing style with Guardiola, there was not much change in the strenght of the players, there was huge change in strength when it came to Europe's best. Therefore whe can assume it was Guardiola's tactics and playing style that made the difference.

There can be reasons why despite the facts above Guardiola is not to blame, but they have to be presented. You didn't manage to do that so far, because one player in or out of form can not explain a thrashing instead of a quite convincing victory, especially not with so much quality on the bench. When Bayern supposedly did so great in the BuLi there already was criticism. It's not that no one did see it coming.
 
That's not the whole story. Ribery's drop in form could be attributed to change in style of play. Dropping someone like Martinez from his favored position also has to be take into account. He also had player like Robben in top form and let's not forget that likes of Gotze and Thiago were added to the squad.

I understand that winning the CL is based on very fine margins in the end. But that was not that case here at all. Losing 4-0 at home to Madrid is not about lottery or small margins. It is plain and simple a big failure. It would have been one thing for someone like Dortmund to lose like that at home but Bayern with one of the best squads in the world don't get to trott out excuses like freak result or such.

How do you figure? If Ribery under Guardiola in the same style of play showed his brilliance in the first semester and his role on the pitch didn't change between the first and second half of the season.

Nobody can take away the mistake in the second leg against Madrid, but people forget that the first match was very even and Bayern had two times the shots of Real Madrid. Ribery got substituted off in the 72nd minute and got replaced by someone who isn't a natural winger in Gotze as Ribery wasn't performing anywhere near the level of the knock-out stages the year before, or himself at the start of the season.

We can't take away an entire season of great performances because in one game Guardiola failed tactically. The same way we can't say that SAF failed in 12-13 when we won the league because we lost with 4-1 against City and Ferguson had a tactical blunder. Or because we conceded 5 goals against WBA the same season. Even in 99 we lost to Arsenal with 3-0 and Sheffield with 3-1.

Freak results happens to every team every season and you never know when they will come, for Guardiola they came in the worst possible scenario but it doesn't take away from the other 59 matches of the season and the level they were at then.
 
How do you figure? If Ribery under Guardiola in the same style of play showed his brilliance in the first semester and his role on the pitch didn't change between the first and second half of the season.

Nobody can take away the mistake in the second leg against Madrid, but people forget that the first match was very even and Bayern had two times the shots of Real Madrid. Ribery got substituted off in the 72nd minute and got replaced by someone who isn't a natural winger in Gotze as Ribery wasn't performing anywhere near the level of the knock-out stages the year before, or himself at the start of the season.

We can't take away an entire season of great performances because in one game Guardiola failed tactically. The same way we can't say that SAF failed in 12-13 when we won the league because we lost with 4-1 against City and Ferguson had a tactical blunder. Or because we conceded 5 goals against WBA the same season. Even in 99 we lost to Arsenal with 3-0 and Sheffield with 3-1.

Freak results happens to every team every season and you never know when they will come, for Guardiola they came in the worst possible scenario but it doesn't take away from the other 59 matches of the season and the level they were at then.

Bizarre comparisons in that post. If Fergie had blundered tactically in FA Cup semi against Arsenal then ofcourse he would be culpable for us not doing the treble. There is simply no correlation between tactical blunder in one league game and a knockout match. At it is Fergie himself played a role in us losing the CL final to Barca in 2011. Not saying we should have beaten Barca but the team he put out had little chance. I mean making a mistake in a big final or semi final is obviously going to matter much much more than a league game.

It was not a freak result at all, it was very bad mistake by Pep which he himself acknowledged later on. Some like Low gets shit from German fans for doing the same, doing fine in most matches and then blundering in key ones.

I did n't see much of Bayern before X'mas but saw them in CL after. They way the wingers were being used was a far cry from the previous year. At times they were even being forced to stay out wide to provide width and had no full back to link up with.

I don't think Pep failed in his first season at Bayern would be ridiculous to suggest that. But he obviously played a big role in them not going to at least reach another CL final. People were going all woolly eyed over his experiment with Lahm in MF but if the cost is losing the best current RB in the world and one of the best DM in Martinez being sidelined, then not sure any such move should be applauded.
 
I think it is indisputable that Robben and Ribery are irreplaceable for Bayern, they have no back ups who can play there at the highest level and they will suffer every time one of Robben and Ribery aren't in their peak form. Ribery was in poor form after January and it isn't surprising that Bayern then also entered a dip in form. Both Ribery and Robben are at an age where a decline can come at any given time and it looks like Ribery's time as one of the very best players in the world may be over already, but we will see if he regains his high level.

Guardiola inherited a squad where the four maybe best players are all above 30 now, so expecting them all to continue at their level with no decline is a bit optimistic. We shouldn't really blame Guardiola for Ribery losing his form, it is hard to put that blame on him.

One of them is replaceable and you could argue that we play even better with just one of them atleast in a 4-3-3. I could make an argument that in the clutch matches of last season the combination of Müller + Götze + Robben has worked a lot better than Ribery + Mandzukic + Robben did. Actually I think that the combination Pep had played in some of the CL matches - a 4-3-3 with Schweinsteiger + Kroos on the 8 + Robbery with real striker is the worst thing you can make as their is no surprise. The striker is fully covered, Ribery excels when he has 2 players to serve and Robben cannot move away from his right wing and only shines with his runs but does not make something positive for the result. That was exactly that formation that rarely does give Bayern any goal out of open play in 2011/12 - and it was similar in 2013/14.
 
One of them is replaceable and you could argue that we play even better with just one of them atleast in a 4-3-3. I could make an argument that in the clutch matches of last season the combination of Müller + Götze + Robben has worked a lot better than Ribery + Mandzukic + Robben did. Actually I think that the combination Pep had played in some of the CL matches - a 4-3-3 with Schweinsteiger + Kroos on the 8 + Robbery with real striker is the worst thing you can make as their is no surprise. The striker is fully covered, Ribery excels when he has 2 players to serve and Robben cannot move away from his right wing and only shines with his runs but does not make something positive for the result. That was exactly that formation that rarely does give Bayern any goal out of open play in 2011/12 - and it was similar in 2013/14.

How does Pep like Muller out wide though? He didn't let him start out wide in any of the knock-out stages last season in the Champions League even if Ribery was calling for being benched and not starting. Last time he was used out wide was in the match which was worth nothing against City the 10th of December 2013.

Muller is a difficult subject in Pep's Bayern isn't he? Has Pep made any official statements to Muller's status in the squad for the next season? Ribery and Robben were the first team choices for the winger roles and now Lewa is brought in to the team and will play as the striker.
 
How does Pep like Muller out wide though? He didn't let him start out wide in any of the knock-out stages last season in the Champions League even if Ribery was calling for being benched and not starting. Last time he was used out wide was in the match which was worth nothing against City the 10th of December 2013.

Muller is a difficult subject in Pep's Bayern isn't he? Has Pep made any official statements to Muller's status in the squad for the next season? Ribery and Robben were the first team choices for the winger roles and now Lewa is brought in to the team and will play as the striker.

Well, Müller did demand to know if Bayern really count on him for the next years. Result: Contract Extension until 2019.

I feel like this supposed problem Pep has with players like Müller was hugely overrated. Not many players got more minutes than Thomas last season and I expect him to play a huge role next season as well.
 
I'm sure it's the pink shirt that pulled him to Madrid. Seriously. Don't you guys think he'll look absolutely fantastic in Real's wonderful new all pink kit? I can't wait to see it. Everyone talks about dreaming to play in white, but I'm sure in Kroos' case, it's the pink one. How could we compete with that? Our new kit sucks :(
:drool:
 
I think that the only way you could speak of an underachivement would be if you take the last Heynckes team as measure stick. There is no question for me that the Bayern of 2013/2014 was interferior to the one one year before.

The Bayern of 2012/2013 was one of the strongest club teams in history and the most balanced and versatile side I have ever seen live. This side could switch up between a highly efficient possession style and a deadly counter system in the middle of a game and their well tuned pressing system gave you no time to recover. Their defensive stability made it seem that you basically have no chance to score they also did not simply defeat teams, they destroyed them without mercy or shifting gears. In short it was a team that seemed nearly unplayable when they were on top of their game, which was the case 95% of the time. The only time they looked threatened or on the back foot in top form was the first 30 minutes of the CL final, when Klopp´s Dortmund basically threw everything at them, which would cost the latter later in the game because they went out of steam.

There was one big downside of their way to play, though, which makes comparisions to other sides pretty hard. It was an extremely demanding system for the players, both physically and mentally. It did work the way it did because there was an enourmous motivaton in the squad. It was a team with a clear mission, who simply wanted it more than anyone else.

I believe that it is incredibly hard, if not impossible to uphold such an amount of motivation over a long period of time. That is also why the transition under Guardiola was needed to an extend. It did not work perfectly in all areas, but overall while it is less exciting and dominant and relies more on individual class in the offense to break deep lying defenses (a direct result of his system), it is more substainable.

In terms of expectations a CL win should never be taken as measure stick of a successful season. It is the hardest competition in the world, where one slip up can end the campaign. What can be expected is the Group win and thus a normally doable draw until the Semi Finals.

The German cup is similar to an extend, maybe even more volatile given the one leg nature but with far fewer true threats to them. Either the win or a close loss in the latest stages should be expected.

In the end the fairest and best way to evaluate a season performance is still the league. In Bayern´s case the expectation is simple: everything less than the title is a failure. If you are in such a commanding position in terms of ressources that you basically pay your players as much as the two biggest rivals put together, then you simply have to win a battle of consistency.


We weren't inferior from a tactical point of view. Pep changed things, but they worked. I remember fairly well, how we played in Heynckes´s first year. Not bad, but also not fantastic and dortmund won the league. At this point nobody talked about heynckes as tactical genius, who is going to form one of the best teams of all time. The general consensus was that he is a solid/decent/good manager, who can manage the youngsters and stars, but who is lacking tactical finesse. Just one year later and he is a tactical mastermind? I dont think so. Glorification of the past at its best.
In december 2013 there was almost no expert/pundit left, who thought, that bayern declined.

The difference between 12/13 and the year before and after was, that bayern "was a team on a mission". That had nothing to do with tactics. Everyone was in top form and everyone played sole for the one goal to win the CL. At one point they started to believe that they are unstoppable. We still have a good team spirit, but its impossible to recreate this very special feeling in and around the team.

Pep made two decision, that deserves criticism.
1) Why did he change so much after the winterbreak? It hurt the team to change things up on a weekly basis
2) After losing the first leg against Real, he panicked and changed things to please other people. Pep gave up his philosophy, which resulted in a very bad lineup.

I doubt that he´ll do this mistakes again. Other things that heavily influenced our bad finish were just not his fault. There are lots of factors, that are random/hard to influence for a manager. In 12/13 all these things were going in our way, while in 13/14 a decent amount of things didnt (e.g. injuries; ribery out of form; winning the league way to early). As Dortmund fan you should know these things fairly well.

so what the conclusion? Criticism, that is primarily based on results, doesnt make any sense; especially in cup competitions. We played a very good season and Pep did a good job. 99% of the people who suggest otherwise are completely deluded.
 
Well, Müller did demand to know if Bayern really count on him for the next years. Result: Contract Extension until 2019.

I feel like this supposed problem Pep has with players like Müller was hugely overrated. Not many players got more minutes than Thomas last season and I expect him to play a huge role next season as well.

He had a great role this season being shifted around for the best of the team but I don't think it was for the best of Muller himself. I can't really see his role being different this year either unless Ribery/Robben declines rapidly and Muller becomes the first choice. Remember that the last half of the season Ribery was out of form and Muller still wasn't given the right to start out wide in the biggest matches.

With Lewandowski coming in, Muller will have much harder competition up front as well and I can't really see Bayern using Muller up front ahead of Lewa in the biggest matches. Will Muller enjoy another season as a rotational player who plays a lot, but mainly in different positions to allow the team to rest the first choices in different positions? I can imagine that the team may change style though as Lewandowski has different abilities and skills than Mandzukic.
 
Call me a weirdo, but I actually really like the new jerseys.
 
Alright, don't call me a weirdo.

I need to think about some choices I've made in my life now... this hurt.
 
It will be interesting to watch Pep's team this season. He sees the game like few others. Can't wait to see what he does with Lewa and hopefully see Gotze take a starring role.
 
It will be interesting to watch Pep's team this season. He sees the game like few others. Can't wait to see what he does with Lewa and hopefully see Gotze take a starring role.
Half of that German team that won the World Cup were Bayern players. I suspect if Pep doesn't deliver the Champions League this year they could show him the door and get Löw in.
 
Half of that German team that won the World Cup were Bayern players. I suspect if Pep doesn't deliver the Champions League this year they could show him the door and get Löw in.

Doubt that.

Low won't quit German nation team unless after the euros.

You have to remember Germany also showed loyalty to him, when they always got to the semi finals or so and there were doubts if he could take them further. And they gave him a new contract regardless of what happened at the World Cup.
 
Half of that German team that won the World Cup were Bayern players. I suspect if Pep doesn't deliver the Champions League this year they could show him the door and get Löw in.

Oh god... the idea alone...
 
Half of that German team that won the World Cup were Bayern players. I suspect if Pep doesn't deliver the Champions League this year they could show him the door and get Löw in.

Before the world cup I didn't really rate Low that highly. But he did a good job, he had some good players missing too.

Pep is under a lot of pressure, as a manager/coach he has a vision of how he wants to see the game played. He won't compromise. In terms of being an all-round striker, Lewa is one of the best in the business so i'm very interested to see that. I agree with you, the league is a given to an extent. It's in Europe he will be judged. It is crazy how Europe has even become one sided these days. It's always a Mourinho team, a Guardiola team and Barcelona and one other. I remember the early 2000's when it was a lot more competitive. I miss those days.
 
Half of that German team that won the World Cup were Bayern players. I suspect if Pep doesn't deliver the Champions League this year they could show him the door and get Löw in.
I feel sick just reading this. Bayern fans would probably break Hoeness out of jail so that he could stop this madness if rumours about it appeared.
 
Doubt that.

Low won't quit German nation team unless after the euros.

You have to remember Germany also showed loyalty to him, when they always got to the semi finals or so and there were doubts if he could take them further. And they gave him a new contract regardless of what happened at the World Cup.

True, he probably wants a European Championship medal to with that World Cup one. I would be surprised though if Bayern didn't sound him out should they think about booting Pep. Perhaps for that reason alone Pep will get more time.

Oh god... the idea alone...

It will be a German on German love in for sure.

Before the world cup I didn't really rate Low that highly. But he did a good job, he had some good players missing too.

Pep is under a lot of pressure, as a manager/coach he has a vision of how he wants to see the game played. He won't compromise. In terms of being an all-round striker, Lewa is one of the best in the business so i'm very interested to see that. I agree with you, the league is a given to an extent. It's in Europe he will be judged. It is crazy how Europe has even become one sided these days. It's always a Mourinho team, a Guardiola team and Barcelona and one other. I remember the early 2000's when it was a lot more competitive. I miss those days.

I agree. It's a shame the German league is so one sided as it appears to be since Pep moved there. He'll mop up the league and their FA cup equivalent but they'll judge him on Europe. Mainly because thats what he was brought in to do but also because that team will be billed at one of Bayern's greatest teams ever after recent achievements, and I'm not sure the Bayern board and fans will be willing to settle for what they will see as an 'underachievement' if Bayern don't go on to win the Champions League at least 3 times in the next 5 years.
 
I'm not sure the Bayern board and fans will be willing to settle for what they will see as an 'underachievement' if Bayern don't go on to win the Champions League at least 3 times in the next 5 years.
What the fecking feck? Did you write that with a straight face?

Any particular reason? Because they like Pep or because they dislike Löw?
Both.
 
What the fecking feck? Did you write that with a straight face?
Seriously, Bayern pretty much just won the World Cup. It's a huge achievement and they'll be expected to build on that. If Bayern don't win the Champions League in the next 3 seasons, fans will be saying they've underachieved and should have done a hell of a lot better. I'm not saying it's right and I'd certainly hope no one would be that demanding but we all know what fans and chairmen of football clubs are like.
 
I remember the disappointment in Barcelona when they only won the CL twice from 2008 to 2012, even though they basically won the EC twice and the WC. What a disaster that era was.
 
Seriously, Bayern pretty much just won the World Cup. It's a huge achievement and they'll be expected to build on that. If Bayern don't win the Champions League in the next 3 seasons, fans will be saying they've underachieved and should have done a hell of a lot better. I'm not saying it's right and I'd certainly hope no one would be that demanding but we all know what fans and chairmen of football clubs are like.
No Bayern fan, not even the most delusional one expects at least 3 CL wins in 5 years, that's crazy. There are at least 5 clubs in Europe that spend significantly more money than we do and winning the World Cup doesn't mean that the team with the most winners is instantly the favourite for the CL. Have you looked at Barca's, Chelsea's or Real's squads? If we don't challenge for the CL and win at least one more in the next 3 years, of course it would be a huge disappointment. But you wrote 'at least 3 out of 5'. Again, that's insane.
 
No Bayern fan, not even the most delusional one expects at least 3 CL wins in 5 years, that's crazy. There are at least 5 clubs in Europe that spend significantly more money than we do and winning the World Cup doesn't mean that the team with the most winners is instantly the favourite for the CL. Have you looked at Barca's, Chelsea's or Real's squads? If we don't challenge for the CL and win at least one more in the next 3 years, of course it would be a huge disappointment. But you wrote 'at least 3 out of 5'. Again, that's insane.

You think Chelsea have a better squad than you ?
 
You think Chelsea have a better squad than you ?
No, but it's really close and I don't think we would be clear favourites if we faced Chelsea in the CL knockout rounds, let alone in a one off game in the final. The idea that our squad is so far ahead of every other team, that we should win 3 or 4 CL titles in the next 5 years is ridiculous, especially if you factor in the possible investment of clubs like Barca, Real, PSG, Monaco, Chelsea, City or even United and Arsenal in the next years.
 
No, but it's really close and I don't think we would be clear favourites if we faced Chelsea in the CL knockout rounds, let alone in a one off game in the final. The idea that our squad is so far ahead of every other team, that we should win 3 or 4 CL titles in the next 5 years is ridiculous, especially if you factor in the possible investment of clubs like Barca, Real, PSG, Monaco, Chelsea, City or even United and Arsenal in the next years.

I agree, there are about 3-4 teams who will be 'expected' to win the Champions League this year. What would you see as a successful season for Pep ?
 
I agree, there are about 3-4 teams who will be 'expected' to win the Champions League this year. What would you see as a successful season for Pep ?
Winning the league, challenging for the CL and not falling apart in the last months of the season. There has to be a clear development towards a formation and tactics that gets the best out of this squad. And the young players should have a fixed position so that they can develop and aren't constantly shifted around and played out of position. It's almost impossible for Götze to become a great player, if he's constantly moved around between false 9, winger, AM and sometimes even CM. That needs to stop.
 
No Bayern fan, not even the most delusional one expects at least 3 CL wins in 5 years, that's crazy. There are at least 5 clubs in Europe that spend significantly more money than we do and winning the World Cup doesn't mean that the team with the most winners is instantly the favourite for the CL. Have you looked at Barca's, Chelsea's or Real's squads? If we don't challenge for the CL and win at least one more in the next 3 years, of course it would be a huge disappointment. But you wrote 'at least 3 out of 5'. Again, that's insane.
Yes I would agree, I was over exaggerating on that front but when Pep was at Barca, they were in the final near enough every other season. Bayern will expect the same with this team.
 
Yes I would agree, I was over exaggerating on that front but when Pep was at Barca, they were in the final near enough every other season. Bayern will expect the same with this team.

But that is a standard that does not have to do much with Pep alone. That team has set the standard alone with reaching the CL final 3 times in 5 years.
 
But that is a standard that does not have to do much with Pep alone. That team has set the standard alone with reaching the CL final 3 times in 5 years.
Exactly and one could easily argue that this Bayern side are equally as good as the Barca side he had (excluding Messi of course). That team was made up Spain's World Cup winning team also.
 
Bild has filmed a conversation on the training ground from Guardiola with Gerland - and turned the voices up - in which they talked about Badstuber...

Hermann, Hermann. Last season we had two outstanding centerbacks. But Badstuber is better! He's the best I ever had!

So - let us wait and see and give him some months for his comeback... :cool:
 
No. Martinez is ours. He is our only real defensive midfielder. I know that Guardiola does not see him there in every match - but there is matches where he really is needed there.

Pretty please?

If Badstuber makes a successful return the I guess there is less chance of Martinez getting games at CB. It's going to be hard for Guardiola to keep everyone happy this season.
 
Really hope Guardiola stops the BS of playing great fullbacks in midfield... I really do.
 
Pretty please?

If Badstuber makes a successful return the I guess there is less chance of Martinez getting games at CB. It's going to be hard for Guardiola to keep everyone happy this season.

Badstuber is a left foot - so takes the left side as a defender. It will be Dante who will get less playing time. Boateng usually plays right but can play both sides and switched last season if he was paired with Martinez or van Buyten. Martinez always plays a the right one of the central defenders.

But - Badstuber still needs time - if everything goes right. He has been out of play for 19 months. He needs matches to recover. We all know that there ain't many defenders that can build up play as good as he can. I haven't seen anybody since Matthäus that can do long balls from the back on one side of the pitch as exactly into the feet of a player on the right.

He ain't the fastest - and there is better defenders if it just means defender skills. But for that we have a fast Boateng.
 
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