Well I've said form the start that I expect Pep to win one CL and 2 league titles in his first 3 seasons here, so yeah, if he stays 5 years and fails to win a CL, I agree that he underachieved. That's totally different to saying he underachieved in his first season with us though.
Pep Guardiola's Bayern
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It isn't. There was no excuse for that Chelsea CL semi loss.
Teams in the past have gone in on runs where they won 3 CLs in a row. Barca at least ought to have retained one when they had 3 of the best 5 players on the planet in one team at their absolute peak.
Fans just dont understand that variance is an important concept in football; especially in cups. Even if you are a huge favourite, its more likely that you are not winning it.
I disagree. 3 league titles in a row, sure. But cup competitions, especially the CL is too unpredictable. People thought Bayern would at least reach the final last season, if not defend it successfully. Yet they got smashed by Madrid. 2 CL wins in 4 years is already a great achievement.
Nobody has ever retained the CL, the only teams to have retained 3 or more european cups in the old format were Real Madrid (5 from 56 to 60) Ajax (3 from 71-73 and Bayern from 74-76) - its a bit harsh to say barca who in the last 7 years have gone:
2007/8 semi,
2008/9 winners,
2009/10 semi,
2010/11 winners,
2011/12 semi,
2012/13 semi,
2013/14 quqrters
has underperformed - has any other team ever done that over a 6 year period?
Of course we all have our own opinions and personally I find it tough to pick between that AC team with van basten and that barca team as the best I have seen but the most consistently high performing over a sustained period I have to say for me has been Barca.
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@sun_tzu They made the quarters this time, not the semis.
"Only" with Inter. He didn't win the treble with Porto.
I disagree. 3 league titles in a row, sure. But cup competitions, especially the CL is too unpredictable. People thought Bayern would at least reach the final last season, if not defend it successfully. Yet they got smashed by Madrid. 2 CL wins in 4 years is already a great achievement.
Meant the European cup
yes sorry fixed - still 6 semis in a row - nobody else has ever achieved that have they?
Apparently Kroos has said that Real Madrid are a step up from Bayern. That surely won't go down well in Munich.
Also said something like "it was clear from the start that I would leave the club."
(Note: I might quote him out of context here since I didn't understand the spanish question!)
I won't miss him. He won't miss us. A deal well done.
(Note: I might quote him out of context here since I didn't understand the spanish question!)
I won't miss him. He won't miss us. A deal well done.
Kroos is the perfect Alonso replacement, and let's be honest Xabi has looked his age since coming back from that injury. He will be a bit part player next season or maybe even leave.
Nobody expected something else of him. His goodbye on the homepage does not include Hoeneß or Rummenigge - and this two usually have a fatherlike relationship to the players that are in the club for a long period. Some just should see that the decisions about Kroos do not only have to do with his performance on the pitch.
He mentions the top players of Bayern - but he does not mention Robben... As this thing is translated into 2 languages and written carefully I wonder why he left him out... (Especially as a Luca Toni is mentioned he only played about 5 matches with)
http://www.toni-kroos.de/index.en.html
He was never meant to be a Bayern legend. His relation to the club and the fans was always driven by professionalism alone, never passion. It translates to his demeanor on the field as well. Maybe he'll play like a worldclass midfielder on a more regular basis for Real and we will play a more direct, penetrative, versatile style. Everybody can beneftig from this transfer.
@Blackwidow
Maybe it was revenge for a comment made by Robben about a year ago while Kroos was injured if I remember correctly. Asked with whom at number 10 he rather plays, Kroos or Müller, he instantly replied "Müller".
They might not be the best of friends.
@Blackwidow
Maybe it was revenge for a comment made by Robben about a year ago while Kroos was injured if I remember correctly. Asked with whom at number 10 he rather plays, Kroos or Müller, he instantly replied "Müller".
They might not be the best of friends.
If he really did say that then that is just wrong. He should have respect for the club that he had success with and that played a massive part in his career. No matter what happens at Madrid, when people look back at his career Bayern will be a significant part of it and probably the main club people associate him with. Real Madrid is not a step up from Bayern and he was wrong to say that (that is if he really did say that).
I'd say he played very well and Real Madrid as a whole improved when he got back from injury.
I know that he did say it during the presser. Oh well, another one of those sentences straight out of "Press Conference Phrases for Dummies/Football Players", I wouldn't read too much into it.
They did improve overall but it's also true that he had an inconsistent season and he does look a lot more vulnerable defensively than he used to. At the very least Real Madrid are right to plan for their post-Alonso time, even if they still plan on keeping him as first choice for now.
Think the initial idea was to use I'll Illarramendi as the Alonso replacement but he's been underwhelming so far.
I don't think expecting Pep to repeat the treble was fair, but he underachieved in terms of the style of play and the way you guys went out to Real was embarrassing... no offence, but the Bundesliga isn't a particularly great way of measuring how well he is doing. I thought hand on heart, you guys regressed last season as a footballing force and it was down to Pep.. I know we're talking margins, but margins is all it takes at this level. He needs to adapt his methods and prove he is a manager who can tailor his philosophy and tweak it to the demands of the game... controlling the game is fine, but he needs to loosen up and permit more shots on goal, encourage a variety of goals and give more breathing space to the players. I think he'll be safe all season and then he'll be judged on the end stages of the CL.. we'll see how he reacts to the challenges of the reborn Barca, star-laden Madrid and a stronger Chelsea who I expect to be featuring once again at the business end of the CL.
To be fair, Real are a step up from anyone.. league of their own. They can buy anyone, anyone they want - no club has the same pulling power.
Lemme just sign this real quick.
The only reason why the EPL is better now is because of van Gaal... He is God and he knows...
tbf, Kroos probably meant it as an iconic step up rather than a footballing step up. Either way, it's a step up anyway, they smashed them in the CL, and everyone dreams to play in the white, only Germans dream to play for Bayern.
Very interested in what Pep does, stay an array of options, but I just hope Thiago isn't full on glass, though I kinda do too because he didn't come to Utd hmm. All down to what he does with Lahm I guess.
Very interested in what Pep does, stay an array of options, but I just hope Thiago isn't full on glass, though I kinda do too because he didn't come to Utd hmm. All down to what he does with Lahm I guess.
I'm sure it's the pink shirt that pulled him to Madrid. Seriously. Don't you guys think he'll look absolutely fantastic in Real's wonderful new all pink kit? I can't wait to see it. Everyone talks about dreaming to play in white, but I'm sure in Kroos' case, it's the pink one. How could we compete with that? Our new kit sucks
I disagree, that he underachieved in terms of the style of play. We played fantastic for 2/3 of the season. We just fall short at the end. Injuries, switching formations and winning the league way to early all played a part. The matches against Real were embarrassing and painful, but lets not get overboard with conclusions. Real played great football and caught us of guard. They deserve at least as much credits as we deserve criticism.
Pep made a couple of mistakes. Almost every manager does; everything is fine as long as he doesnt repeat them.
regarding Kroos: i watched his introduction. He said nothing out of the ordinary or offensive. Obviously he praises Madrid, but he also thanked bayern and said that he left on good terms with the management and Pep.
@Balu: Our new kit is terrible. I hate these red/blue colour combination. After 10 years with good/solid kits home-kits, it was only a matter of time until the designer went batshit again. Lets just hope, that this is a fluke.
Yeah it's horrible. I hate it.
I can't believe people talk about a Bayern regression considering how well they did last year. The Champions League has always been a lottery and you can see that by just looking at the fact that the most dominant team in the world never wins it twice. They're not all going to have lost their level, it is simply about the fact that you need luck in knockout matches as every top team loses points to bottom sides in the league as well.
Over two legs nearly any team can beat any. We will see what happens in this season, if Bayern fails to reach the semi-finals this year then we can start talking about them having taken steps backwards.
Over two legs nearly any team can beat any. We will see what happens in this season, if Bayern fails to reach the semi-finals this year then we can start talking about them having taken steps backwards.
I love that Badstuber makes a comeback. Tomorrow the test match will be his first match since ages.
I don't think Bayern will overly miss Kroos anyways. Play Martinez next to Bastian and that's an incredibly strong base, with Thiago/Gotze infront of them.
Lewandowski ability to hold the ball up means they can accommodate runners in the midfield better, I'd wager Kroos slow pace isn't as suited to that as much as Thiago or Gotze.
Lewandowski ability to hold the ball up means they can accommodate runners in the midfield better, I'd wager Kroos slow pace isn't as suited to that as much as Thiago or Gotze.
Not necessarily, no. But they will have to make changes from last season if they want to not miss him. He was the hub of their side all season. Thiago barely played due to injury, and Schweinsteiger was fairly in and out. Kroos was there week-in week-out, controlling the tempo, dominating possession, providing the penetration and the rapid movement of the ball from one wing to the other. He was probably more central to the way they played when dominating the Bundesliga last season than any other player.
That said, I think they could be more exciting without him. Kroos is a mixture of Guardiola-esque tiki-taka and German power and efficiency. Thiago is a mixture of Guardiola-esque tiki-taka and old-school Brazilian flair. There's never a dull moment when he's on the ball, and if the plan is basically to replace Kroos with him, then I think Bayern's football will be more dynamic, more aggressive and a little more individualistic. Which is surely what they need if they're going to avoid being vulnerable to vibrant counter-attacking football like Madrid's (or Klopp's, when he's got a fully functioning side).
Alonso screens for Real and plays as the sole 6 along with his distribution.
Kroos isn't as good defensively at all. He will need to adapt to that role as he hasn't been that good there in the past. Maybe he can, but he certainly isn't a natural there and would invariably take safer option deeper while passing as well slowing down play more.
Guardiola isn't going to play Martinez-Bastian as a double pivot in front of his D, I don't think. He doesn't seem to consider the pair well-suited to the style of play he likes.
I think Bayern will buy Benatia or another CB, then conclude their summer transfers by either buying an RB or a CM this summer now that Kroos has gone. Lahm will start at one of those 2 spots. Something like this:
------------Lewandowski/Goetze-------
Muller/Ribery----------------Robben/Shaqiri
------Thiago/Rode---Signing/Lahm/Hobjberg
----------Schweinsteiger/Martinez------
Alaba/Contento--------------------Lahm/Signing/Hobjberg
-------Dante/Boateng---Benatia/Martinez
------------------Neuer/Navas-------------
Maybe also some 3-3-3-1 again with 3 CB's, Alaba-Schweinsteiger-Lahm and 3 attackers behind a striker.
I think that the only way you could speak of an underachivement would be if you take the last Heynckes team as measure stick. There is no question for me that the Bayern of 2013/2014 was interferior to the one one year before.
The Bayern of 2012/2013 was one of the strongest club teams in history and the most balanced and versatile side I have ever seen live. This side could switch up between a highly efficient possession style and a deadly counter system in the middle of a game and their well tuned pressing system gave you no time to recover. Their defensive stability made it seem that you basically have no chance to score they also did not simply defeat teams, they destroyed them without mercy or shifting gears. In short it was a team that seemed nearly unplayable when they were on top of their game, which was the case 95% of the time. The only time they looked threatened or on the back foot in top form was the first 30 minutes of the CL final, when Klopp´s Dortmund basically threw everything at them, which would cost the latter later in the game because they went out of steam.
There was one big downside of their way to play, though, which makes comparisions to other sides pretty hard. It was an extremely demanding system for the players, both physically and mentally. It did work the way it did because there was an enourmous motivaton in the squad. It was a team with a clear mission, who simply wanted it more than anyone else.
I believe that it is incredibly hard, if not impossible to uphold such an amount of motivation over a long period of time. That is also why the transition under Guardiola was needed to an extend. It did not work perfectly in all areas, but overall while it is less exciting and dominant and relies more on individual class in the offense to break deep lying defenses (a direct result of his system), it is more substainable.
In terms of expectations a CL win should never be taken as measure stick of a successful season. It is the hardest competition in the world, where one slip up can end the campaign. What can be expected is the Group win and thus a normally doable draw until the Semi Finals.
The German cup is similar to an extend, maybe even more volatile given the one leg nature but with far fewer true threats to them. Either the win or a close loss in the latest stages should be expected.
In the end the fairest and best way to evaluate a season performance is still the league. In Bayern´s case the expectation is simple: everything less than the title is a failure. If you are in such a commanding position in terms of ressources that you basically pay your players as much as the two biggest rivals put together, then you simply have to win a battle of consistency.
Don't forget about Bernat. By signing him, it could indicate that Alaba will get the chance to play CM again.
In my opinion Guardialo's Barca was very good but overestimated. Too often they needed a little help from the referee, and other clubs found out ways to combat them.
But the main problem with his style at Bayern is that it doesn't allow his players to lose posession. That means they have to be more careful, can't take risks. Only a few players in the world can be dangerous without the risk of losing posession. Messi is (was?) one them, Iniesta also, Xavi. At Bayern the only one is Robben, Ribery loses his sting when he can't play on the edge of his technical abilities.
Bayerns style under Van Gaal en Heynkes was less careful, it had more a sense of urgency to get to the goal. They could storm. Guardiola's Bayern always seems to calm down the game.
But the main problem with his style at Bayern is that it doesn't allow his players to lose posession. That means they have to be more careful, can't take risks. Only a few players in the world can be dangerous without the risk of losing posession. Messi is (was?) one them, Iniesta also, Xavi. At Bayern the only one is Robben, Ribery loses his sting when he can't play on the edge of his technical abilities.
Bayerns style under Van Gaal en Heynkes was less careful, it had more a sense of urgency to get to the goal. They could storm. Guardiola's Bayern always seems to calm down the game.
I think it is indisputable that Robben and Ribery are irreplaceable for Bayern, they have no back ups who can play there at the highest level and they will suffer every time one of Robben and Ribery aren't in their peak form. Ribery was in poor form after January and it isn't surprising that Bayern then also entered a dip in form. Both Ribery and Robben are at an age where a decline can come at any given time and it looks like Ribery's time as one of the very best players in the world may be over already, but we will see if he regains his high level.
Guardiola inherited a squad where the four maybe best players are all above 30 now, so expecting them all to continue at their level with no decline is a bit optimistic. We shouldn't really blame Guardiola for Ribery losing his form, it is hard to put that blame on him.
Guardiola inherited a squad where the four maybe best players are all above 30 now, so expecting them all to continue at their level with no decline is a bit optimistic. We shouldn't really blame Guardiola for Ribery losing his form, it is hard to put that blame on him.
I didn't see any signs of decline with Robben at the WC. I do not think Ribery has ever been one of the best players in the world. Good player, but just not the kind of ball control the best ones have.
His style is different from Heynkes and Van Gaal's style. And he didn't stand a chance in the CL with about the same players and a different style. The burden of proof is on those who say he's not to blame.
The burden of proof is used in the exact opposite scenario mate.
If it worked like this the criminal would be guilty until proven innocent, so the one with the burden of proof is the people claiming Pep made the team worse than if Heynkes would have continued. If Ribery had been out of form in the entire knock-out stages in 12-13 then I don't think they would have actually won it, instead Ribery was in the form of his life and came third in the player of the year award thanks to it. If Guardiola had that Ribery for his knock-out stages then they would most likely have performed at a different level. It isn't about Ribery not suiting the tactics either as he was outstanding in the first half of the season under Guardiola's tactics.
The burden of proof is used in the exact opposite scenario mate.
If Guardiola had that Ribery for his knock-out stages then they would most likely have performed at a different level. It isn't about Ribery not suiting the tactics either as he was outstanding in the first half of the season under Guardiola's tactics.
That's not the whole story. Ribery's drop in form could be attributed to change in style of play. Dropping someone like Martinez from his favored position also has to be take into account. He also had player like Robben in top form and let's not forget that likes of Gotze and Thiago were added to the squad.
I understand that winning the CL is based on very fine margins in the end. But that was not that case here at all. Losing 4-0 at home to Madrid is not about lottery or small margins. It is plain and simple a big failure. It would have been one thing for someone like Dortmund to lose like that at home but Bayern with one of the best squads in the world don't get to trott out excuses like freak result or such.
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