You think we weren't playing to win the game? Bollocks!
Pep Guardiola's Bayern
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They weren't this clueless as to how to find openings. Teams might have kept them out but those teams took a lot of punches to keep them out. We seemed to look quite comfortable.
The inter game had more to do with inter being brilliant on the break which we certainly couldn't boast of. Although we did have a couple of sitters we missed in both legs.
This is probably the best answer. Although I'd add iniesta to it. Ribery for all his effort doesn't have the same class as iniesta.
It's really strange. I'm sure I read for years, that Barca's lack of a plan B cost them a CL title defense, that they were boring when teams defended well against them and now it all sounds like that they were unbeatable and broke defensive teams down with ease. Don't get me wrong, I rate Barca at their peak higher than us, no doubt about that and even if we defend the title this season, that doesn't change. But some of the comments about our performance in this tie are very, very weird.
United defended incredibly well. Our biggest strength is off the ball movement and with United parking the bus very deep and not even trying to attack with more than 3 players for most of the two games nullified that strength almost completely. No team last season played comparable to that and I'm sure we would have struggled against a United team playing like that last season as well, most teams would (maybe you should have tried it in one of the finals against Barca). What's really important is to use the few openings you get, don't get nervous and collapse, when one of the two chances, that you can't avoid against a team with individual class upfront, ends up in a goal against you. We did both, twice turned the game after conceding into a brilliant result for us and it was obvious that we would completely own United in an open game. That's not meant as a criticism, Moyes played it well in both games in my opinion, maximised the chance to go through. But despite not playing very well, conceding first twice, we went comfortably through in the end.
Also, if you consider how often we missed the heart of last season's treble this year, it's really impressive that we find a way to perform that well. Does anyone really believe, we would have won the treble without Schweini and Martinez playing every important game last season? Some of our performances this season while missing crucial players of the treble winning team are nothing short of amazing. For all the criticism Pep gets, soaking up pressure and playing a more physical game without Schweinsteiger and Martinez in midfield would have been stupid.
United defended incredibly well. Our biggest strength is off the ball movement and with United parking the bus very deep and not even trying to attack with more than 3 players for most of the two games nullified that strength almost completely. No team last season played comparable to that and I'm sure we would have struggled against a United team playing like that last season as well, most teams would (maybe you should have tried it in one of the finals against Barca). What's really important is to use the few openings you get, don't get nervous and collapse, when one of the two chances, that you can't avoid against a team with individual class upfront, ends up in a goal against you. We did both, twice turned the game after conceding into a brilliant result for us and it was obvious that we would completely own United in an open game. That's not meant as a criticism, Moyes played it well in both games in my opinion, maximised the chance to go through. But despite not playing very well, conceding first twice, we went comfortably through in the end.
Also, if you consider how often we missed the heart of last season's treble this year, it's really impressive that we find a way to perform that well. Does anyone really believe, we would have won the treble without Schweini and Martinez playing every important game last season? Some of our performances this season while missing crucial players of the treble winning team are nothing short of amazing. For all the criticism Pep gets, soaking up pressure and playing a more physical game without Schweinsteiger and Martinez in midfield would have been stupid.
Not really. I don't think Cech made any major saves in 2009. Same for Inter in 2010. Barca just had Messi who could dribble past 3-4 players at a time to create some panic in the opposition defense. But that's about it.
Bayern here actually won the tie against a team that parked the bus unlike Barca who went to out or were lucky to get past such teams.
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This always happens. I am certain if you dig up posts, you will find plenty of posters lamenting Barca's tik tika style, accusing then of being boring and one dimensional. Even when they were putting 4 past teams.
Barca are definitely a contender for the best club side of all time but their record in away legs of CL ties is very poor.
And yeah, people are convinitely papering over the fact that you were missing your 3 options for midfield - Schwein, Thiago and Martinez, even if latter has been used more as a CB.
Imagine Barca without Busquests, Xavi and another CM.
Do you really believe La Liga in Barca's treble year was better than last season's Bundesliga? After all, Barca's toughest competition in the league was a shit Real Madrid team, that was completely destroyed by Liverpool (0-5 on aggregate) in the first CL knock-out round, while we had to beat a Dortmund side to the league and to the cup, that was easily the 2nd best team in the CL that season and beat a much better Real team in the group stages and the semi finals of the CL.
That's one league title though. Barca won 3 didn't they? And real were pretty awesome for at least two of those. And the Spanish league is overall a stronger league wouldn't you say? So I don't see how bayern have matched that already.
I've never said we matched their achievements let alone their peak performances, just think it's strange to mention the strength of the league. Don't think it matters much anyway. If we win a third consecutive league title, it's highly impressive. Winning a treble when the second best team in the league is also the second best team in the CL is even more impressive. We can't change who we play in the league and as long as we beat top teams in Europe as well, why would you bring it up as some sort of measurement, let alone the only one? After all, we kicked Real out of the CL in the season they beat Barca to the league title.
Where do you think this team needs to strengthen for next season, Balu?
I guess after Lewandowski, you guys will try for a right back and a center back.
I guess after Lewandowski, you guys will try for a right back and a center back.
Depending on Lahm's future position, centerback and rightback are the two positions we might need to strengthen. Problem is, there aren't many quality centerbacks available (and can't think of any rightbacks that make sense either). Other than Thiago Silva, who's definitely not available, there's no one out there who is worth to buy and play ahead of the ones we have. I hope Badstuber finally comes back and Martinez improves his performances at centerback, if we continue to play him there.
I mostly expect us to improve because the players will understand Guardiola's ideas better, don't think more transfers will have a huge impact. We also really struggled with injuries, I'd love to have Thiago available for a whole season for example, in the end he basically had no impact on this season at all.
Hummels/Subotic?
Someone like Coleman would be a great fit for your side personally. Very good in attack and defense, and with all due respect to Everton, very much gettable for a side like Bayern. CB is a tricky area though, Javi Martinez seems to me bit of a waste at CB but I think he played there for Bilbao under that Bielsa as well.
Hummels isn't available and I'm sure he doesn't want to go back to Bayern anyway. I don't think Subotic is an upgrade on Boateng or Martinez as a right centerback.
Haven't seen enough of Coleman to really comment on him. British players rarely leave the Premier league though and I'm sure all the English top clubs will be interested in him as well? Can't see us signing him.
I think most Guardiola teams will play a similar way... Bayern this season look a lot more like Pep's Barca (without Messi). But then compensated by having Ribery and Robben who are probably superior wide players (just) than Pedro/Sanchez/Villa.
I don't get anyone who criticises their style. They have 70% possession and are played against parked buses. Of course it's difficult to look threatening (shots on target, getting in behind the defence) against a parked defence. Has any team in the history of football ever looked regularly threatening against a parked bus?
I don't get anyone who criticises their style. They have 70% possession and are played against parked buses. Of course it's difficult to look threatening (shots on target, getting in behind the defence) against a parked defence. Has any team in the history of football ever looked regularly threatening against a parked bus?
I just think they should be getting more shots off from range. He is determined to keep possession though that unless the players are 110% sure they can get a shot on target they don't take them.
Yup. I think that they play right in to the hands of the team parking the bus by being terrified of loosing the ball instead of unleash more shots and then force the opponent to try and push players further forward. Having Mandzukic and Lewandowski playing at the same time could solve it for the coming seasons though it doesn't seem a Guardiola thing to play two strikers like that.
I think RM if they performed like against us last year would be much harder to play for any team parking the bus than Bayern are.
Bayern lacks the same level of individual skill that often carried Barcelona in the same type of matches from Messi, Iniesta and earlier Xavi as well. In Xavi's peak he had a brilliant ability to land very direct passes which is why he had such a huge number of assists back then.
Robben and Ribery has the ability, for now, but are soon going to be over their peak and then it will be impossible for them to find replacements by the looks of it. The only winger I can see doing a job like that would be if they pulled a Robben on Nani, bought a questioned and constantly injured player with tonnes of talent and inconsistency and makes him realize his potential.
They were way more impressive last season, imo. Looks to me that Pep has killed the edge they had last season for efficiency.
Or may be the players are a little less motivated after a stupendous last season. They won the game quite comfortably in the end, though they didn't amaze me as the supposed best team in the world. The only thing I enjoyed was Lahm's role as a right back-central midfielder, which in all honesty we should have capitalized on.
I don't know what I am saying.
Or may be the players are a little less motivated after a stupendous last season. They won the game quite comfortably in the end, though they didn't amaze me as the supposed best team in the world. The only thing I enjoyed was Lahm's role as a right back-central midfielder, which in all honesty we should have capitalized on.
I don't know what I am saying.
I personally don't like this argument because it's extremely subjective. I don't think there is much of a difference between the two leagues. The bottom half teams in the BL seem to be in a healthier and more stable financial state at least which has an effect on football obviously.
I'm not arguing that either is easier or harder, just that it is hard to say one is easier than the other because there is no quantifiable criteria to base that on.
Personally, I think we should put in a big bid for Martinez if we don't get Kroos. Bayern may be tempted to sell. He is defo better in MF than defense
Yes, Bayern is not as exciting in the Champions League as last year, but it's not like all the league or CL group stage matches were pleasant on the eyes in 12/13. The greatest misconception in this thread however, is the assumption that the football of Jupp Heynckes' Bayern would have been equally successful for another season.
The team was utterly reliant on their two key players Schweinsteiger and Ribéry, without them the entire attacking flow was severely crippled which resulted in performances which were really hard on the eyes. Some might remember the Arsenal 2nd leg last year where Bayern was horrible. Furthermore the entire system depended on a staggering work-rate and unbelievable determination, this was a team on a mission after the lost CL final in 2012. Repeating such effort is simply impossible even if you're the greatest professional and try your hardest. Furthermore I'd argue Jupp Heynckes winning formula would have eventually been beaten by other coaches, he's not as versatile as Guardiola in his approach, there were weaknesses as could be seen in the opening 25 minutes of the 2013 CL final and the last 30 minutes of the DFB cup final against Stuttgart.
So you can obviously prefer the way Bayern played last year, I agree to a certain degree, but it was not going to continue even with Heynckes on the bench.
The team was utterly reliant on their two key players Schweinsteiger and Ribéry, without them the entire attacking flow was severely crippled which resulted in performances which were really hard on the eyes. Some might remember the Arsenal 2nd leg last year where Bayern was horrible. Furthermore the entire system depended on a staggering work-rate and unbelievable determination, this was a team on a mission after the lost CL final in 2012. Repeating such effort is simply impossible even if you're the greatest professional and try your hardest. Furthermore I'd argue Jupp Heynckes winning formula would have eventually been beaten by other coaches, he's not as versatile as Guardiola in his approach, there were weaknesses as could be seen in the opening 25 minutes of the 2013 CL final and the last 30 minutes of the DFB cup final against Stuttgart.
So you can obviously prefer the way Bayern played last year, I agree to a certain degree, but it was not going to continue even with Heynckes on the bench.
As could be seen in both legs, they seem to over-do Peps "control" fetish a bit at times. After Uniteds goal yesterday night, they shifted to
I agree to certain extent.
In Football, sometimes the imperfection makes for excitement.
Bayern against Arsenal 2nd tie was a freak accident, Arsenal scored in the first few and last few minutes. Other than that, it was a solid, albeit not stunning, performance from Bayern, a team that already had secured the group and a spot in the next round. I've been watching them for a while now, and even in their best seasons there were games when a blind could tell after 5 minutes the players couldn't be assed... and those were about 10 games per season, sometimes more. The current team has that down to 3-4- should be another world record.
No team can keep up the momentum every of their 45+ games per season. Last years Bayern were clearly on a mission, driven by the defeat against Chelsea, and had fewer "business as usual" games than every team in history, i dare say.
Pep, i think, clearly saw what you say, no team can put out performances like Bayern did last year on a continous level, so he honed them to a team that can win (or advance) even when they don't shine.
The minutes after the 1-0 on wednesday showed what they are capable of if they really try and go 100%. If Pep is smart, he will shift the balance a bit more towards risk taking, it may be necessary to beat Chelsea or Atletico. It is still a work in progress and as such fascinating to watch. I do think the current team and playstyle still have more potential.
The 4 teams competing for the CL title are all "coach teams", and Bayern may have the best mixture of player class and coaching ingenuity. Possibly even more so next season - remember, Pep''s only been there for the better part of half a year and only had his say in one transfer - yet. There might be some more excitement to come.
On a sidenote, Pep seems to rate the pressure at Bayern to be even bigger than at Barca.
The only thing that I would slightly criticize is, that we gave up our transition game almost completely. It was one of our strongest weapons last year; Robben/Ribery bombing forward, when we won the ball deep in our half. There is some reason behind it, but I´d still love to see this as another alternative.
Surely, there is no good reason for using Ribery and Robben to provide width like they are Valencia esque wingers and playing fullbacks in midfield? It's just wrong IMO. I will be happy if Guardiola proves me wrong with this set up, but I can see it costing him big time. I know he likes to experiment, but IMO this one is one of his worst ever.
Someone like Tony Jantschke could help out at both CB and RB.
he is not good enough.
Varane? Unlikely I know but Real do some stupid stuff sometimes.
You'll be terrifying with Lewandowski and a top class right back.
Madrid aren't that supid 
. Of course, I'd be over the moon, if we get Varane, but it's just not happening.
. Of course, I'd be over the moon, if we get Varane, but it's just not happening.He's not really an upgrade on Rafinha and we have enough centerbacks.
Madrid aren't that supid
He's not really an upgrade on Rafinha and we have enough centerbacks.
They don't pick him right now, which is stupid enough. They spent crazy money on Bale last season, they might need to sell to raise money for 2014's Galactico signing.
He is being eased back after injury, we are not playing him 2 games in a row. And pepe and ramos have a partnership and it would take varane a while to develop that
No way Madrid are selling Varane. They 'd be stupid to do so...
As stupid as selling makelele
They are in a mini slump. Won't be easy to just turn it on against Real.
Having your full-backs narrow to dominate possession is all well and good but Ribery and Robben are left without support in wide areas to create space for them to cut into.
I guess overlapping full-backs isn't fashionable anymore in Guardiola's eyes. In fact, it reminds me of the unsuccessful 3 at the back experiment in his final season at Barca.
I guess overlapping full-backs isn't fashionable anymore in Guardiola's eyes. In fact, it reminds me of the unsuccessful 3 at the back experiment in his final season at Barca.
Overrated bunch.
Guardiola still doesn't seem to have an effective plan b for games like this.
Tiki-taka is soooo 2010.
He's less tactically aware than David Moyes.
He's taken all the pace and urgency out of their attack, its a carbon copy of his Barca team except its made up of players who don't suit the system as well. He's neutered Robben and Riberys effectiveness against top teams.
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