I'm just presenting facts here and the comparison of both players in the their early years is perfectly valid - whether Jones goes in the same direction as Robbo or becomes a top defender instead is still to be determined, we shall see.
Phil Jones in midfield revisited
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
I'm just presenting facts here and the comparison of both players in the their early years is perfectly valid - whether Jones goes in the same direction as Robbo or becomes a top defender instead is still to be determined, we shall see.
By ordinary I mean not very good. Yaya Toure? Toure is technically on a different planet, scores goals and passes the ball well. Jones doesn't have any of the attributes you need from your CM apart from for the odd away game.
I suspect Robson was a better player technically even when he was playing at centre back or fullback then though. Very rarely will you see someone drastically improve the technical side of their game at Jones' age.
Could be, I have no idea to be honest as I never saw him at that age. However I don't think Jones is so bad technically, what he really lacks is experience and that only comes with time.
Anyway Robson was a special player, Jones could be half as good as Robbo and still be a damn good midfielder for us when required.
Of course neither of us saw him then, but don't you agree he was a lot better technically at his peak than Jones is now? So then the question is how many players have you seen that have really taken their technical game up multiple levels in their 20s - I don't know of any. I'm sure experience will help with things like positioning, composure, awareness (to an extent) but it doesn't change the fact he's Owen Hargreaves-like with his passing. Experience will help him see the pass quicker but it won't help him actually execute the technique.
Of course he was better at his peak than Jones now. However I dont spend time looking at anything so specific as how any players' technique changes over time so I have no idea on that, more important is how they grow as players in general and technique is only one part of it.
And to be honest, if he can be as good as Owen Hargreaves at his peak then I will be quite happy with that - it is actually a comparison I have made myself. i just hope he doesnt have the same injury issues which is still a worry.
And to be honest, if he can be as good as Owen Hargreaves at his peak then I will be quite happy with that - it is actually a comparison I have made myself. i just hope he doesnt have the same injury issues which is still a worry.
I worry that playing Jones in all of these different positions on a game to game basis is going to hinder him excelling in one. I see him as a centre back and I'd like to see him get a good run there and nail it down but barring injuries he's not likely to get a run there ahead of Rio, Jonny and Vida. In that case playing him in different positions isn't a bad thing because at least he's getting games and experience. I'd really prefer he mastered one position though (CB) than being our new Jack of all trades. For me he isn't a midfielder at all. At the Bernabéu the other night he did a good job for the team but imo still looked like a defender playing in midfield.
Personally I'd be happier if he became as good as Rio/Vidic, which is more likely.
I think the part where people are not convinced about him being a long term solution in midfield is because he offers little going forward sometimes? I mean we know he can't pass like Carrick from his position but if we do decide he is going to be in midfield long term, then that is something he can work on and then he can contribute more going forward?
Still don't rate him as a midfielder. He's good in games where we get dominated in terms of possession and there is a lot of huffing and puffing to be done, like the Madrid game.
But I expect United midfielders to be much better on the ball, better passers, have a better first touch and be more creative than what Jones is at the moment.
He's a centerback and I hope we continue to develop him as one. Although I think his best games so far have been at right back.
But I expect United midfielders to be much better on the ball, better passers, have a better first touch and be more creative than what Jones is at the moment.
He's a centerback and I hope we continue to develop him as one. Although I think his best games so far have been at right back.
so after the purchase of Fellaini many assumed we wouldnt see Jones in midfield again, but there he was last night and had a good game I thought.
His best midfield performance so far. Defensively, anyway. Much prefer him playing fairly deep instead of the bizarrely advanced role Fergie sometimes asked him to play.
The number of times he got the wrong side of his man was driving me insane.
I still think Liverpool found it far too easy to get past our midfield. Jones does things well but his defensive positioning isn't really good enough for the role, not yet anyway. He was better in possession than he usually is though.
I've always quite liked him in centre mid, I remember QPR and Villa away two seasons ago were two of his best ever games for us and he was played as a conventional central midfielder both times.
The issue was when he got played as an advanced midfielder, virtually a number 10 like against Liverpool and Reading last season (also Villa away?) and he just isn't suited at all to that role.
That said, as a centre back last season he improved so much compared with his debut year with us in which he was often a liability there for me. Both positions would probably be fine but long term he seems a centre back now, which I didn't expect two seasons ago.
The issue was when he got played as an advanced midfielder, virtually a number 10 like against Liverpool and Reading last season (also Villa away?) and he just isn't suited at all to that role.
That said, as a centre back last season he improved so much compared with his debut year with us in which he was often a liability there for me. Both positions would probably be fine but long term he seems a centre back now, which I didn't expect two seasons ago.
I agree, but that was his exact issue with centre back and he stamped that out in less than a year which was incredible. He could certainly learn the role, I think.
I still think thats simply because he's our most dynamic player in terms of players who can play in midfield. I think since Fletcher has been ill we've missed a 'runner' and he's best suited to that role. His downfall playing in that position is obvious (i.e. what most people assume is the most important aspect of being a midfielder, passing) but I think thats how Fergie weighed it up really.
I didn't think that was from midfielders running off ours though which can be a problem for us, I felt that was mainly from Suarez impressive movement and generally being a bit of confusion about who to pick him up. So maybe a positioning fault or a communication fault? He's a bit of a jack of all trades at the moment, centre back, right back, defensive midfielder, attacking midfielder, man marker, he's a clever footballer who clearly understands the game and is willing to learn but really, you can't expect him to be mistake free in any of those positions because he's not had enough game time in any of them at the moment.
I've never had the sense of fear about playing him in centre midfield to be honest, I think he can be very good there against the bigger teams, but not really when we're bossing the game and trying to break someone down.
Jones in midfield just simply has to stop.
Saw people praising his performance last night. Was it just me who thought he was anonymous in the first half?
When he dropped deeper into a more familiar defensive role. He offers nothing when we have the ball in centre mid. It has to stop.
He was all over the place last night. Made some good, full blooded tackles at times but that was about it. He was caught out of position far too often and when we actually had the ball he would never show for it and ask for the ball, never mind demand it.
It was his first game in midfield for a long time though and he was alongside a 40 year old so we can hardly expect him to shine, especially against an experienced midfield like Liverpool's last night . He's going to have to find his best position eventually though and play there regularly; I still think it's going to be at centre back.
It was his first game in midfield for a long time though and he was alongside a 40 year old so we can hardly expect him to shine, especially against an experienced midfield like Liverpool's last night . He's going to have to find his best position eventually though and play there regularly; I still think it's going to be at centre back.
He had the 2nd most passes and had the 3rd most touches of the ball (behind Nani and Rafael... who are both dribblers)... So I don't think thats a fair criticism to be fair. He was definitely hanging back quite a bit (probably by instruction) but this meant he was generally available for a pass and when he got the ball he used it relatively well.
He did get caught out of position a bit like you said (Suarez was finding the spaces between our midfield and defence far too easily) but overall his recovery play was good enough to cover for that. Overall I thought had a very good game in there - the sort of game that would have been even better had it have been as part of a midfield 3.
That's because some people were stupid enough to think that United would spend 28m on a player who would go straight on the bench to watch the likes of Carrick and Ando play. The Belgian is a first teamer (at least for this season) which means....that someone else will have to act as cover for Carrick.
Nothing wrong with doing a good defensive midfield job, he had Giggs next to him for creativity.
Plus I Thought his distribution was far improved from previous occasions - he is a fast learner and Im still happy to see him get more run outs in midfield!
Thought he did well. A little better on the ball than what he usually is. It's not his fault he gets thrown into midfield. I'm sure he will still develop into a top player.
Still in the minority, firmly believing midfield is where his future lies.
Is he better than O'Shea in midfield?
He's John O'Shea on steroids and he also feels okay with playing absolutely everywhere.
I don't have a slightest clue where he's gonna end to the rest of his career but he should always shine in centre defense. Some of his performances in Blackburn were clearly promising and some people in football called him next John Terry. Playing him as right back is kinda wasting his potential and strength.
Him as defensive midfielder is quite interesting as he got few decent appearances already but if he's gonna continue to play there it will be probably because of lacking Marouane in the squad.
I don't have a slightest clue where he's gonna end to the rest of his career but he should always shine in centre defense. Some of his performances in Blackburn were clearly promising and some people in football called him next John Terry. Playing him as right back is kinda wasting his potential and strength.
Him as defensive midfielder is quite interesting as he got few decent appearances already but if he's gonna continue to play there it will be probably because of lacking Marouane in the squad.
I thought he was good playing a more disciplined role in the middle. Most his stuff was still recovery play, but reading the game takes time to get. I think he could do a job in the base of midfield with a Carrick/clev. The issue if he went with a Fellaini is that you'd need the more attacking players to be on their games as they're unlikely to get many cutting balls from the middle.
Didn't think he was that bad personally, best I've seen of him in midfield.
I'm better than O'Shea in midfield, and I'm a fat 35 year old smoking 20 a day.
Remember how much fun Jan-May 2006 was?
I find it hard to assess his performances in midfield. I'm a bit confused by him whenever he plays there. I'm inclined to hold that against him - which is perhaps petty of me.
He has energy, can track his man well, is a more than decent "disruptor" and so forth. I think the main objection - apart from the fact that he simply doesn't look like a midfielder - was mentioned by someone above: He looks like he could be replaced by just about anyone in our squad whenever we have the ball and he is part of the build-up. That doesn't really bode well for his future as a regular CM feature, I must say. But I will definitely not write him off as part of a midfield set-up in certain matches, where he has a specified task to perform.
He has energy, can track his man well, is a more than decent "disruptor" and so forth. I think the main objection - apart from the fact that he simply doesn't look like a midfielder - was mentioned by someone above: He looks like he could be replaced by just about anyone in our squad whenever we have the ball and he is part of the build-up. That doesn't really bode well for his future as a regular CM feature, I must say. But I will definitely not write him off as part of a midfield set-up in certain matches, where he has a specified task to perform.
I'll just leave this here.
"The pretender and the master"
"The pretender and the master"
Fair enough, maybe I'm being a little harsh but I still maintain that he does little to improve our build up play and sometimes hinders it. I noticed this a few times last night when we were beginning to play the ball out of defence - Jones would be standing there in the perfect position to receive the ball but he would actually walk away, it wasn't until Rooney dropped all the way back from the front that we got going. This was in stark contrast to what Carrick brought to the game when he came on.
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Worst O-face competition 2013
Worst O-face competition 2013
Re-watched the game and have to say he was brilliant in the second half. The only qualm I have is his passing. It's critical for any midfielder so I hope he can up it a level or two. Both he and Giggs were good yesterday and fully justified selection.
At one stage I have to tell you I actually thought we'd make up the point gap on Chelsea. After the disappointing way the season started it was a massive turnaround.
Agreed. Jones really surprised me. People will say Real Madrid last year but against Madrid he wasn't really a midfielder, he was a man marker. His job was to sit on a particular player and he did so effectively but he wasn't playing football as such. Last night he was actually quite decent in possession and moved the ball along ok.
Jones is not a midfielder player, doesn't have the instincts, isn't good at following the play to provide an option and can get caught on staying and going. BUT considering he's a natural centre-back I thought he came out of last night with credit in the bank. Daresay he's was no worse in midfield for us yesterday than Luiz was for Rafa at Chelsea last year.
The thing abut Jonesy is that he seems to have an astonishing capacity to learn and improve. His performances as a centre-back improved massively over the course of his first year at United, so it's not unlikely the same thing can happen with his performances in midfield. Especially considering he's ironing out the same flaws (rashness, lack of discipline, poor positional sense) He's also a good footballer for a defender, as you can see with the lovely crosses he can whip in from fullback. Still just a kid too, so it's mug's game saying he definitely can or can't be a certain type of player.
The one thing I really think he needs, whatever position he plays, is a bit of luck with injuries. They've really set him back in his career so far. If he can stay fit for several months on the trot then the sky's the limit for him.
The one thing I really think he needs, whatever position he plays, is a bit of luck with injuries. They've really set him back in his career so far. If he can stay fit for several months on the trot then the sky's the limit for him.