I don't know why I bother replying but I said:
Imagine the low crime rate Chicago would have if they had an authoritarian government in charge of counting the crimes
Qatar WC | Fans and Atmosphere Watch
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That's true but surely you'd agree that Chicago's still a much better place for a woman, despite the higher crime rates?
My guess is that English women feel more comfortable in Qatar because it lacks the sexist yobs that follow England elsewhere. Not because Qatar is inherently a welcoming place for women.
Based on what though? Western / expat women in Qatar have most of the freedoms that they have in Chicago coupled with extremely low crime rates and little to no sexual harassment.
Even in that sentence, which you see as a positive argument, the inherent unequal divided and hierarchical society is embedded.
Odd that this needs to be said but women get the vote in Chicago and it’s also not illegal to be a lesbian as well.
American is bad but they do have very basic rights which Qatar doesn’t.
Some people can't fathom that people feel safer in 3rd world country than in America
Is Qatar really a third world country?
Work for Qatari women absolutely has to be done, yes. But talking about women’s safety here as well as having majority of the freedoms that they would in Chicago and there’s no contest to be honest.
Qatari women can vote and run for office.
I think it's past due that we give some respect for all the authoritarian regimes that give privleged people and/or conformists a feeling of safetey.
Oh come on. It’s literally a monarchy run state, that doesn’t have political parties.
Its constitution includes this
https://www.hrw.org/news/2021/09/09/qatar-election-law-exposes-discriminatory-citizenship
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Qatar is one of the richest countries in the world.
It's a stupid contest, though. Western expats will have that privilege in almost every country in the world--and especially at an event like the World Cup.
The aul Qataris do look after their pets well, to be fair.
I have been to Qatar many times. It's absolutely safe to go about. Even in the middle of the night.
You see expats and many women out and about. I hope people understand that there are many more immigrants working in Qatar than the locals? And not all are labourers from Asia. Lots of Palestinians and Egyptians and Jordanians and from Magreb too.
You see expats and many women out and about. I hope people understand that there are many more immigrants working in Qatar than the locals? And not all are labourers from Asia. Lots of Palestinians and Egyptians and Jordanians and from Magreb too.
I suppose the UN is an authoritarian government? Interpol as well? Both quote very low crime stats (interpol in old though from wiki).
I said right at the start that there are a lot of laws that discriminate against women and that if you're an independent woman who wants to work and succeed there then it would not be the best place. The discussion though was purely about safety and from that perspective it is definitely higher in Qatar than in Chicago or most other US cities that suffer from high crime rates.
Have you been following the conversation? If a woman has that privilege but minimal chance of sexual assault, rapes, and general low crime rates, then you'd undoubtedly choose the latter. I'm surprised people are even trying to dismiss this - do you know how many women (I'm talking about UK here) are unable to leave their house at night or alone? We've had two high profile rapes and murders of women in the last couple of years alone (one of them perpetrated by a police officer). We have a dismal record of women's safety here.
How many violent attacks and sexual assaults on women are there? - BBC News
That's a fraction of the population.
"Qatar has 1.46 million more males than females. Qatar is at 201st position out of 201 countries/territories in terms of female to male ratio."
https://statisticstimes.com/demographics/country/qatar-demographics.php
And on the national average only only 15 of that minority are citizens.
You've edited your post meaning I've had to start again...
But yes - it's a monarchy but there are still public office bodies, and women can run for them (although they still make up a minority).
On the other bits you've quoted -
Qatar’s first legislative polls: What to expect from Shura vote | Elections News | Al Jazeera
This is a good article. Most Gulf countries have strange 'naturalised' laws, mainly because the immigrant work force outnumber the natives by a significant portion. My own personal opinion is that I think this will change down the line (ie naturalised running for public office and voting). In the UK, you can only vote if you're part of the Commonwealth - it's not like they let people from all four corners stay here and then vote.
Lots of irrelevant posts here from the usual suspects (who then cry whataboutery in other threads) so back on topic with some first hand reports from England fans in Qatar
No, when you boil it down, you are talking about roughly the privileged 10% of the population, their well being is not indicative of a society.
Does the low crime rate not cover the other 90%?
To be fair bud, you are very much one of the "usual suspects" - albeit arguing the other side of the coin.
The 'other' women? Amnesty don't think so.
"Researchers heard shocking testimonies of violent abuse, including women who reported being slapped, pulled by the hair, poked in the eyes, and kicked down the stairs by their employers. Three women reported that they had been raped.
Women who have been physically or sexually abused face major obstacles to getting justice. None of the women researchers spoke to had seen their attackers prosecuted or convicted.
In one horrific case, a domestic worker broke both her legs and fractured her spine when she fell from a window as she tried to escape a rape attack by her employer. Her attacker then proceeded to sexually assault her as she lay on the ground, injured and unable to move. Only afterwards did he call an ambulance. "
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/n...cking-cases-deception-forced-labour-violence/
I think "highly restrictive" is a more suitable adjective to use than "strange" when referring to naturalisation laws in Qatar. The path to naturalisation is so heavily guarded as to be almost impossible. If the UK had a similar naturalisation process then no migrants or people of migrant origin of the last century would have been able to acquire UK citizenship.
It is changing though - at least in the UAE which is comparable. Non-Emiratis are now able to buy land in certain regions. They've changed the length of marriage to Emiratis to gain citizenship as well. As mentioned in other posts - it's a process for countries that are relatively nascent.
Women make up 25% of the population. And the reason women make up 25% is because of Qatar's massive immigrant population who are predominantly young and male.
I'd say 25% is indicative enough, yes. Your broader point makes no sense.
Gulf countries are really bad in this aspect, there have been workers who have spent their whole working lives to help build their countries but never get citizenship and get sent packing when they can no longer work. Its a joke.
I have no issues with different opinions - I'm a stickler for staying on topic though and this thread is about fans & atmosphere.
So let's celebrate the incredible Senegal fans who turned up early and made an incredible noise all match despite their team losing for most it.
It's to do with the inorganic nature of the demographics and the odd % that overall 25% that are actually citizens, it was a reaction to your assertion post on 'women in Qatar'. The women you are referring to are not safer because of their gender, but because of their privilege, and that is the same everywhere.
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Sure, there are historical, demographic, economic etc. factors that have produced these restrictions. They should certainly be kept in mind so we don't lapse into damaging stereotypes and orientalist tropes about Gulf Arabs.
At the same time, these restrictions should be honestly critiqued, not least because they are the average Euro-fascist's wet dream, and thus may provide a model in very different historical/demographic/economic contexts in the future.
At best, that's a bit disingenuous and glib considering the Amnesty and Human Rights Watch reports of crime and abuses among the migrant workers who are the majority of the population.
If you view any society by ignoring the weak and vulnerable then the whole planet is pretty much fantastic.
It’s a parody post - re what Rhyme Animal was doing. Literally googling any report even though the discussion was based on something else.
It's a human rights conversation, parody says a lot. I knew you weren't being literal. I said it was glib, that implies insincerity.
We weren’t discussing human rights though, in fact, it wasn’t a discussion with Rhyme animal either. It was a separate discussion on how women are treated there vis a vis Chicago.
Capital ‘A’ mate
You were speaking for women and claiming that -
1. They felt safer in Qatar
2. They felt safer ‘because of the culture of the place’
I questioned both points and linked to HRW and an article detailing first hand accounts of women in Qatar in order to make clear why I was questioning you.
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I was typing from my phone hence it autocorrected with a small A.Capital ‘A’ mate
You were speaking for women and claiming that -
1. They felt safer in Qatar
2. They felt safer ‘because of the culture of the place’
I questioned both points and linked to HRW and an article detailing first hand accounts of women in Qatar in order to make clear why I was questioning you.
The report you linked has nothing to do with statements 1&2 which is the point that I’ve reiterated multiple times. Women’s safety is due to the culture of the place (as well as some other factors).
The HRW report is to do with Qatari (note: natives) and their freedom to move, marry etc.
Basically it's probably not a nice place for labourers both men and women from developing nations. I suspect the streets feel safe, though.
‘It’s absolutely fantastic’: visiting World Cup fans shrug off Qatar negativity
Supporters look past controversies and welcome event’s compact nature and stadium alcohol ban
https://www.ft.com/content/a2b1e4bf-da06-42dc-8f81-764d1a0233c5
“Going down to the souk, you see all the people walking around from 32 different nationalities,” said Paul Williams, who had travelled to Qatar to support Wales. “It’s been absolutely fantastic.”
"I just think there’s been a lot of scaremongering in the media,” Terry John, another Wales fan, said of the negativity that surrounded the tournament. “We’ve had a fantastic time.”
Abu Ghasem, a Sudanese expatriate, also pointed out that Qatar’s visa regime meant more visitors from the “global south” were able to attend than would have been possible if the host had been one of Europe’s traditional footballing powers.
Omar Taysir, a Jordan-based student draped in the Palestinian flag, said the authorities had been welcoming and his entry to the country seamless compared with previous struggles to enter the UK on a scholarship.
Other fans have reported how this World Cup has felt safe, compared with their visits to other big cities for football events. “We’ve not been worried about crime such as pickpockets,” said Benjamin Lim, 42, a lawyer from London. “And the relative lack of alcohol means I’m also not worried about my parents who are in their seventies.”
Supporters look past controversies and welcome event’s compact nature and stadium alcohol ban
https://www.ft.com/content/a2b1e4bf-da06-42dc-8f81-764d1a0233c5
“Going down to the souk, you see all the people walking around from 32 different nationalities,” said Paul Williams, who had travelled to Qatar to support Wales. “It’s been absolutely fantastic.”
"I just think there’s been a lot of scaremongering in the media,” Terry John, another Wales fan, said of the negativity that surrounded the tournament. “We’ve had a fantastic time.”
Abu Ghasem, a Sudanese expatriate, also pointed out that Qatar’s visa regime meant more visitors from the “global south” were able to attend than would have been possible if the host had been one of Europe’s traditional footballing powers.
Omar Taysir, a Jordan-based student draped in the Palestinian flag, said the authorities had been welcoming and his entry to the country seamless compared with previous struggles to enter the UK on a scholarship.
Other fans have reported how this World Cup has felt safe, compared with their visits to other big cities for football events. “We’ve not been worried about crime such as pickpockets,” said Benjamin Lim, 42, a lawyer from London. “And the relative lack of alcohol means I’m also not worried about my parents who are in their seventies.”
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I didn't think I'd need to state this, but neither the UN nor Interpol are any government at all. They don't have any police stations where anyone could go and report crimes not counted and the UN only highlights the most egregious of misconduct. They don't bother with some small ME state fiddling its domestic numbers or not.
Even amnesty international can only work with the information they are given or are capable of collecting. Which is why some folks go on masturbating rampages when they hear any sort of numbers about the US or western Europe or Scandinavia or Australia or etc. Because for open societies the numbers actually mean something.
What's the point of this discussion? Low(er) crime (and of course religion) is probably the go to justification for every authoritarian government (measure) ever. It's not some shocking r elevation and I'm wondering if you think it cancels out other stuff.