Can't stand that columnist woman with her utterly vapid drivel.
Question Time & This Week
- Thread starter Liam147
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Good comeback on Labour's diabolical record on the NHS in Wales.
Javid hasn't said much besides the "strong economy mantra", although Lucy Powell just got a very frosty reception from the audience after her speech on the NHS.
Seconded. The NHS is the top health service in the world though...
Seconded. The NHS is the top health service in the world though...
I think we can reach the conclusion that both Labour and the Tories are both hopelessly bad when it comes to running the NHS. Vote MLRP!
I'm glad the medical student who threatened to leave the UK once she qualifies was called out. I'm getting tired of the increasing number of medical students and junior doctors who whinge about wanting to go abroad after they've had their training subsidised by the tax payer. If they have no interest in practicing medicine in the UK, then they should leave the places on (the heavily subsidised) medicine degrees for people who have.
Med students most likely end up with £50k in debts after graduating.
This rarely gets mentioned and is a sure fire sign that they have no fecking idea what to do although that doesn't stop them whinging about the state our NHS is supposed to be in.
The deal wasn't this shit when she got into medical school. What are we supposed to do? Accept any deal that's put in front of us, however fecking awful they are?
That's why there's been a decrease in medical school applications this year.
The investment of the tax payer in each medical student exceeds that figure considerably. We're talking about £250k+ to train a doctor.
Her face was a picture when that bloke cut her down.
No it's not. I trained in the UK, and being a foreign student I paid for my training, but it wasn't anything close to that number.
Stig was right. NHS and pensions policy are long-term issues that need cross-party consensus. Doubt it will ever happen though.
More annoyingly, she was kind of worth a shag, but wouldn't want conversation her.
Labour woman is so bland. Refugee talk an easy clap.
The deal isn't anywhere near as bad as some people are making out. The problem (at least as far as GPs are concerned) is that the previous deal was too generous. Either way, doctors are going to have to take a hit just like everyone else in the public sector.
You're right...it's probably much higher. According to the BMA the cost to the NHS of a pre-registration clinical placement for a GP is £151k, and post-graduate training costs £113k (sorry I can't link a source because I'm reading from a document but the figures are easy to find). Then there are less easily quantifiable costs that we have to consider.
So we should all be forced to work in the country of our education now?
No, but there should be at least some sense of duty when you are accepting roughly £250k of taxpayer funded training. Of course circumstances can change which might make doctors look abroad at some point during their careers but for a would-be doctor to embark on medical training already with one eye on a lucrative job in Australia as soon as he or she becomes qualified seems to me to be somewhat objectionable.
In the military, recruits legally commit to a minimum number of years of service due to high training costs. Perhaps a similar thing should apply to doctors in the NHS if the new wave of soon-to-be doctors do actually carry through with their threats and feck off to Australia or whichever country is offering the most money.
To be fair, it's hard to really blame someone for moving elsewhere if they are being offered more money. The vast majority of people in most professions would be seen as taking a logical route, and while we may view a medical career as more of a vocation, and if doctors have better prospects elsewhere which allow them to earn more money and work better hours, it's hard to fault them for taking it. The central issue should be addressing the fact that doctors aren't wanting to move abroad in the first place, since it results in us losing skilled workers.
As I understand it the bulk of the dispute is around working hours, made worse by Hunt's bumbling and intransigence in negotiating. If you don't treat them like shit, they might not want to go. As a method it's far preferable to compulsion.
We're talking about junior doctors moving away. This has nothing to do with GP contracts or cost of training post foundation years.
Why should they accept to "take a hit"? Would everyone else in the public sector stay if they had better prospects abroad?
According to the doctors you hear in the media, their objections have nothing to do with money.
Really? Can you tell me how the deal isn't anywhere near as bad as is being made out? What research have you done on the deal? And do you appreciate how this deal is terrible for both doctors and patients?
No it's not probably much higher. I know the figures to which you refer. A large percentage of those costs are generally borne by the individual themselves , such as accommodation costs, which the bma has bafflingly included under costs to the nhs. And the post graduate training costs is complete spiel. It implies that firstly the 9-10 years most doctors spend as junior doctors after graduating from medical school is spent sitting around in teaching and having a favour done to them. They're not. They're providing a service, the overwhelming service if the medical profession in the nhs. They're doing the ward rounds, doing the jobs p, scans, investigations, clinics, on calls, go appointments. In fact, training is woefully inadequate, as you're generally swamped by mundane paperwork. Moreover, to pass compulsory parts of your own career (and by that, to do exams and courses that you need to do, not even to 'get ahead' you will be paying thousands upon thousands of pounds of your own money to do so.what are these less quantifiable costs that we have to consider?
The concerns are multi factorial. Money is one of them. Unsurprisingly, seeing your pay take a cut when you've trained for 5-6 years as a student is not ideal, especially when you have a mortgage and kids.
There are other factors too though.
The imposition of a contract without any real semblance of negotiation. The extension of normal 'social' working hours to 7am to 10pm Monday to Saturday. The fact that he is attacking the medical profession and demonising it in the media. The fact that the uk already has a low number of physicians compared to population relative to other western countries and that this is only likely to get worse with this contract.
And whether you believe them or not, the very very real threat to patient safety that this contract will bring about.
Yeah do it. And then see just how many people continue to apply for medicine, especially if this new contract is imposed on them.
I demand to see my monkey doctor.
No need to , Hunt believes machines and homeopathy can replace much of the work these overpaid, underpaid doctors do!
You are talking about tuition fees only and not the placements:
http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=2017108
You were undoubtedly subsidised by us on the basis that you were going to practise here.
Absolutely shedloads of candidates, and well qualified too.
Really? Do you know them then? Cos I certainly don't.
Doctors are already leaving the profession in record numbers (only some to go abroad to do such shocking things as chasing a work life balance where they actually get to see their families, a lack of demonisation from the media and increasingly patients and a better lifestyle) and some to leave the profession completely.
The numbers of applicants to medicine has already been dropping with the rise in tuition fees. The number of graduate applicants to medicine, people who often make excellent doctors because of their broader experience, has fallen severely, after the government decided there would be no loans for those doing second degrees. Medical students on the old fees tended to graduate with an average of 40k of debt, more if they didn't have parents helping them (around 70-80k). This is only going to go higher with the new fees.
This is not to mention the incredibly high rate of depression , alcohol dependence and suicide in the medical profession, the increasingly litigious environment in which doctors now work, government wrecking of the NHS , demonisation in the media and a patient body which wants everything now.
They are also currently negotiating th consultant contract....apparently not a particularly pleasant one either.
The treatment of doctors and the way the NHS is going has already encouraged 5 of my previously most enthusiastic (and actually incredible physicians) to leave for other jobs. Most of my colleagues, even those who tolerated everything previously, are planning an escape route. This is a very worrying trend.
As I said, force through this contract, seemingly a similar one for consultants and gps, enforce a minimum period of conscription in the NHS and see the drop in numbers.
We already have a huge shortage of doctors and are struggling to get by as we are in this country.
Except the doctors and nurses we poach from abroad of course...
Doctors will tend to be some of the smartest students amongst their peers. They can see that similarly intelligent people who go into law, banking, accounting, pharma, etc. will be earning a lot more than they will whilst not having peoples' lives at risk.
Becoming a doctor is not really about money, though it can become pretty good later on. There are many incentives for them to leave the NHS or even the profession as it is. We do not need to be pushing them away considering the staffing shortages. My local hospital has 350 clinical vacancies that they cannot fill.
Becoming a doctor is not really about money, though it can become pretty good later on. There are many incentives for them to leave the NHS or even the profession as it is. We do not need to be pushing them away considering the staffing shortages. My local hospital has 350 clinical vacancies that they cannot fill.
Do I know any applicants personally? Yes. In general though, there are 40-60 applicants per place.
Salaries for junior doctors are obviously too low, unfortunately junior doctors may be good doctors but they're crap at putting their case forward, and making stuff up doesn't help.
What stuff has been made up? Numbers of applicants have gone down. Numbers of graduate entrants has gone done. This is before this contract is imposed and a potential consultant one after that.
People will always apply for medicine. However, increasingly we are pushing away our brightest talents. Those looking for more money will try their luck at university degrees with ultimately better working salaries. Those who are less bothered about money but more bothered about things like seeing their family and having a decent work like balanced choose other courses.
It's not making anything up to say that there are already aren't enough junior doctors in the NHS and that in many ways, the NHS is already hanging on a thread held up by the goodwill of doctors (many of them junior), nurses and other staff jn the NHS.
Of course there aren't enough junior doctors. You're implying that this is because numbers of applicants to medical schools has gone down, but one has not caused the other, and poor arguments like that don't help. The shortage isn't due to lack of applicants it's due to lack of places.
Tactically junior doctors would be better talking less about themselves and more about the effects of shortages and tiredness on their patients, hammering away at those issues relentlessly.
Tactically junior doctors would be better talking less about themselves and more about the effects of shortages and tiredness on their patients, hammering away at those issues relentlessly.
Andy Burnham has got shaped eyebrows. He looks ridiculous.
Burnham's answer showed exactly why he was incapable of winning the Labour leadership; the man spoke for a good minute and Dimbleby still had to ask for a clarification.
All too many politicians are terrified of being succinct in their language.
All too many politicians are terrified of being succinct in their language.
I think it's amusing that everyone is having a go at the Tory lady, you should be doing this, you should be doing that, and every time she nods her head, agrees and confirms that is what they are in the process of doing.
Somewhat surprised, but Max Hastings is making the most sense to me. Tory lady totally out of her depth, they should have sent someone with at least some grasp of the subject. Agree about Burnham too, Nick.
The Tory.Guy in the audience trying to take over the show by shouting.