Comparing their shortcomings when competing with European sides I mean. Those teams have been doing well in the PL with some bright talent but the second they play in Europe, it just not the same as the Villarreals and Sevillas. The point about foreign managers have been argued with other posters and IMO, it is that the PL demands a less measured approach, it demands pace directness which makes these managers have to adapt to it. This however means they cannot easily switch to a more thoughtful approach when faced with continental sides. Of course if you have a Messi, you can make up for pretty much anything as we did to a lesser extent with a tough as nails defence and Ronaldo. But all it means is that tactical nous is not the be all and end all, not that it is totally insignificant.
Quique Flores on Premier League struggles in Europe.
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I'm not sure about having more time on the ball. That is very subjective and open to interpretation. More spanish teams seem to employ pressing than english teams as well. But i think that generally speaking it can be compartmentalized into zones. English teams i think in general are more direct in the final third while spanish teams tend to take more touches around the box. Ofcourse this is a generalized statement as team styles vary within leagues as well. Some interesting stats in your link. There are more successful dribbles in england but there is also more final third entries which perhaps supports my open and directness theory.
The second they play Europa league they dont give a shit (hello Spurs), English teams give far less respect to the cup, I thought that was obvious, you might aswell compare results in friendlies.
See that's where this whole point falls down. Foreign managers 'have to adapt' to the Premier league style of play because continental styles won't work against Premier league opposition. So why does it suddenly work when we are in Europe? You can't have it both ways.
They don't even have the players to play the "continental" style, which isn't a thing.
Actually that article says the opposite, theres more passes in the final 3rd in the Prem, the difference comes with the build up to the final 3rd, La Liga have a hell of a lot more passes in their own half and central midfield.
That is an exaggeration to claim that English teams don't care about the Europa league. Yes it has happened at times but not always. Even if you don't look at the CL, you will see us, City, Arsenal and Chelsea struggling against non-elite teams in Europe. We even have a thing called "learning how to play in Europe" which you just don't see elsewhere. Any United fan will tell you our team in the '90s was one of the best in our history, how come did it have to "learn" how to play in Europe. It's not something about the past either as we have seen the same with City. And I bet in both scenarios, those teams were not simply competing against teams with better individual players or stronger financial muscle or appeal.
It is not having it both ways at all. It is that certain styles work better long term and are more suited to the environment you are in. I think Barcelona are one of the best teams of all times and that no one can compare to them over the past 20 years but I still cannot see them dominating the same way in the PL. It is not because the PL teams are better but the way they play mixed in with the environment it is played in with the fans, refs and culture in general make them a nightmare to play against. To counter that, you need fit, fast and strong players the way we did under Fergie or City and Chelsea have been doing lately. There is also less time to train and work on tactics and strategies and games end up into a chaotic mess where the fitter and stronger wins. When you build a team to counter those strengths, it can come up short in a different environment. It looks naïve and it has to work even harder.
I didn't say "continental style" I said "continental styles" (plural) which refers to styles of play on the continent that differ from ours, which is very much "a thing".
Arsenal could have rested for two years and they would never have overcome that Barcelona side. They have arguably the most talented front 3 of all time vs. a typically spineless Arsenal. You can't just pick one example of a game and say 'explain this'. Furthermore fatigue is not just as simple as looking at the number of games played within a certain timeframe, but also how tight those matches were, number of injuries, distance covered, extent of rotation etc. Not that Barca vs. Arsenal is a fair comparison anyway. This is a general discussion about English teams in Europe and I fear you have missed the point.
Is it any coincidence that English sides performed best in Europe when the top 4 (even 3) was at its most predictable? The rest of the league was weaker and we could exploit this moreso than is possible today.
So spanish teams are more direct? That would be the opposite of what i said..
You think we couldn't get out of the CL group phase because the quality of opposition in the league is stronger now? You don't think that 2007 United side was just stronger and better?
To some degree yes. With those stats the transition period is quicker in England than in Spain, the final phase of play is quicker the Spain than it is in England. With more touches allowed in your own half and central midfield in Spain than England, would that not also point to more aggressive pressing in the PL and no in La Liga as you said? I wouldn't rely too heavily on stats to justify a point anyway.
I think this is the truth for the smaller english teams. I looked up the 11 players with most minutes for every club from 10 to 20 and 45% of them are British. It's a sizeable portion. Basically 5 out of 11 players in the team sheet are British on average.
Yeah stats can be interpreted in different ways. My personal thinking was that in Spain you take more touches outside the box, in the centre and in your own half. And that generally the game is more direct in england.To some degree yes. With those stats the transition period is quicker in England than in Spain, the final phase of play is quicker the Spain than it is in England. With more touches allowed in your own half and central midfield in Spain than England, would that not also point to more aggressive pressing in the PL and no in La Liga as you said? I wouldn't rely too heavily on stats to justify a point anyway.
I think that both statements are true. The two aren't mutually exclusive.
I'm saying that the problem is now exacerbated.
To some degree yes. With those stats the transition period is quicker in England than in Spain, the final phase of play is quicker the Spain than it is in England. With more touches allowed in your own half and central midfield in Spain than England, would that not also point to more aggressive pressing in the PL and no in La Liga as you said? I wouldn't rely too heavily on stats to justify a point anyway.
I think that is because the teams in Spain pack the middle and play much higher in the field. When the ball finally reaches the final third, its in 1v1 situations so the attack is quicker.
It won't change because we don't accept change. Just looks at everybody pining for United to play like Leicester, rather then the style LVG likes to play. Its an impossible job for most managers. Hopefully Pep, Klopp and co. start to change the league for the better.
I understand that its not necessary for the conditions to be mutually exclusive. However i think that team would walk this league. Tevez and prime Rooney upfront, Ronaldo and Giggs+Nani on the wings, Scholes,Park, Carrick,Fletcher in the middle. Rio and Vidic in defense. Oh my word that team sounds scary. They would also comfortably top this CL group.
Our current roster with SAF would crush the league, Leicester are crushing the league and Ranieri didn't do that in Ligue 1 with better players.
So how is his team 3rd lowest scorers in the league? Even when he has a team combined from 3 teams?
But if that is so, why don't continental sides look slow and tumescent against Premier League sides? If overly tactical approaches do not work against English teams in the PL, why does it work so well against them in Europe?
Also, our style didn't work in Europe either.
In order to play at their respective best, they all had to adapt physically and strengthen. You don't need to be an athletic monster for sure but you sure need to be stronger than who you were when you arrived.
You also need to bear in mind that both Mourinho and Wenger are attempting to deflect some of the blame for their own flaccid European performances. At the same time, what Flores and what Mourinho/Wenger say can both be true - it's all part of the mix as to why English clubs don't perform to the levels their budgets should dictate.
There is nothing flaccid in Mourinho's european performances.
I can see where Flores is coming from here. Football adapts. The Guardiola purist version Barca has changed, Atletico and others had shown you can beat them without galacticos, but with organisation. It's a kind of arms race and teams keep adapting.
English football is adapting too. Understandably it started out by buying players who are better at the English style than the English are. It's not that PL managers are thick, but they have to be able to beat the fast, physical teams most weeks - they build teams to do it.
English fans think Spanish defenders are weak. Spanish fans think English defenders are positionally naive, clumsy on the ball, with the turning circle of supertankers. Sometimes physicality and directness of a sufficiently high standard can come as a shock to a European team (but I'm having a hard time remembering an obvious example in the last 5 years). Sometimes the awareness and vision of a top European-trained player, honed against a different kind of defending, makes the English teams look wide open, and at the moment there are a lot more examples of that.
English football is adapting too. Understandably it started out by buying players who are better at the English style than the English are. It's not that PL managers are thick, but they have to be able to beat the fast, physical teams most weeks - they build teams to do it.
English fans think Spanish defenders are weak. Spanish fans think English defenders are positionally naive, clumsy on the ball, with the turning circle of supertankers. Sometimes physicality and directness of a sufficiently high standard can come as a shock to a European team (but I'm having a hard time remembering an obvious example in the last 5 years). Sometimes the awareness and vision of a top European-trained player, honed against a different kind of defending, makes the English teams look wide open, and at the moment there are a lot more examples of that.
Not overall but the exit against PSG last season was embarrassing. 11 against 10 for about 90 minutes, and still they got knocked out.
Bear in mind that comment IIRC was made not long after PSG turned them over with 10 men last season.
Pl fans are easily offended but it's not a dig at the PL. The league is in transition, english players are emerging, managers are emerging and teams are still in the middle of their building process, currently the big english clubs aren't ready to compete, it's not a definitive comdemnation, it's just a conjonctural fact. If I was a betting man, I would bet on the PL being the best league in 2 or 3 years.
PSG's midfield is unplayable, they managed to play their own game against Barcelona, as long as Verratti, Motta and Matuidi are on the field playing with 10 men isn't a problem.
Have you seen us play much? People could be forgiven for pining after Bassett's Wimbledon.
The general mood on here when LVG arrived was very different. Many looked forward to a different brand of football - not just different from Moyes, but different from Fergie's last vintage too.
I'd agree with this. Most PL teams don't seem to show the same organisation that you see from the continental sides. Interestingly the one team that do display those qualities are sitting clear at the top of the league to everyone's bemusement.
Is there a way that we could force everyone else toadapt yo our style than vice versa?
Yes, by winning.
In order to develop tactics to the point where you apply them fast enough, teams need plenty of work on the training ground as well as practice on the football pitch. England has too many games. Klopp and LvG have been pretty much complaining all the time about how they are only recovering and not doing much training. In game practice is also a bit of an impossibility. Whereas a Villarreal or Sevilla get to practice their strategies, combinations on the pitch where there is more time on the ball and less chaos, an English side cannot do that. The end result is teams that are not particularly good at these things because they haven't worked on them. I may have phrased it badly in the post you relied to but the point I was trying to make is not that measured overly tactical approaches do not work against English teams but that they are much harder for an English team to perfect and be good at which make the ones who try to implement them stuck in limbo. The successful managers therefor in the history of the PL like Fergie and Mourinho were the ones who realised that and focus on other areas without wasting too much time on something that will have little chance of taking off. On the other hand, they never experienced the same success in Europe and even when they did, it was through sitting them and defending for our lives rather than outplaying the best European teams. It is my view that what LvG tried to do over here was either admirably ambitious or naïve for example which is why I am very interested to see if Pep will manage to make City play the way we know he can make teams play.
No i think that comes after, not before.
I don't think the difference between La Liga's calendar and the PL's is big enough to count that as an explanation, especially if you look at mid/lower table sides who don't even have EL/CL midweek fixtures.
Hes right but in terms of being competitive in Europe I always thought it was a cyclical thing. Its hard to argue that English football hasnt dominated in Europe before, look at the early 80s, 6 european wins in a row for English sides. Spain have 15? from 3 clubs (5 of those by Real when the competition just began so barely count, England has 12 from 6 teams. Italy has 12 winners too.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_Cup_and_UEFA_Champions_League_finals
Its cyclical, English teams will have their turn again.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_Cup_and_UEFA_Champions_League_finals
Its cyclical, English teams will have their turn again.
I still don't think English football have regained its strength from pre-Heysel.
The funny thing is that English teams performances in Europe declined when all the top teams tried to play more 'Spanish' type football. If they had kept to the same style as Fergusons, Mourinhos and Benitez teams from around 2008 they would be much better of for it. We are not going to outplay some of these teams, we need to go back to building the team on great defences and counter attacking football.
I agree, this stigma that has been created around having a 'English' style of play has been adopted by PL teams for some reason. You look at the team currently sitting top of the league, they play like a Fergie team in Europe.