RAWK goes into Meltdown 2010/2011

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Kraftwerker said:
I think it's more a reference to the scousers' constant trumpeting of being runners-up and the glorification of 2nd place. How many times have you heard them going on about finishing 2nd in 08/09 or being CL runners-up in 06/07? I'd wager you've heard it alot.

I know at United we have slightly different expectations so we'd never glorify 2nd place but look at other clubs too. Look at Arsenal fans - how many times do you hear them going on about their glorious CL final in 05/06 or that time they finished second in the league in 04/05. They don't. Only Liverpool fans do this - it's part of their mental (illness) make-up.

Of course there's nothing wrong with finishing 2nd, and you can't win every year. But at least have some dignity and don't make it into something it's not.
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But it's linked with success over a long period of time. I mean, Arsenal only won the league back in 04, and consequently our victories are still pretty memorable.

With Liverpool, they haven't won the league in 20 years, and consequently, a second place is a relative success. You might argue that's a sign of how far they've fallen, but I don't begrudge them talking about it, especially after seeing what Hodgson is doing to them.
 
alastair said:
But it's linked with success over a long period of time. I mean, Arsenal only won the league back in 04, and consequently our victories are still pretty memorable.

With Liverpool, they haven't won the league in 20 years, and consequently, a second place is a relative success. You might argue that's a sign of how far they've fallen, but I don't begrudge them talking about it, especially after seeing what Hodgson is doing to them.
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They will finish in the top 6 under Hodgson. They finished 7th last season and Spurs and City are much stronger. Rafa would have done no better, especially missing Mascherano.
 
Rowem said:
They will finish in the top 6 under Hodgson. They finished 7th last season and Spurs and City are much stronger. Rafa would have done no better, especially missing Mascherano.
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I don't know how you can say that, given that Liverpool are nowhere near the standard required to finish top 6. Let's assume the top 5 are the normal three, then City and Spurs, there are then loads of candidates for 6th, of which Liverpool are one. They're 4 points off relegation, so to say top 6 is definite is quite bold.
 
alastair said:
But it's linked with success over a long period of time. I mean, Arsenal only won the league back in 04, and consequently our victories are still pretty memorable.

With Liverpool, they haven't won the league in 20 years, and consequently, a second place is a relative success. You might argue that's a sign of how far they've fallen, but I don't begrudge them talking about it, especially after seeing what Hodgson is doing to them.
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You wouldn't, but then again you probably haven't had it rammed down your throat by every bin dipper you encounter. I don't know why they think we would be impressed with their 2nd places, but they like to remind us anyway.

As I said, 2nd place is no embarrassment, but the way the scousers glorify it is a bit sad.
 
alastair said:
I don't know how you can say that, given that Liverpool are nowhere near the standard required to finish top 6. Let's assume the top 5 are the normal three, then City and Spurs, there are then loads of candidates for 6th, of which Liverpool are one. They're 4 points off relegation, so to say top 6 is definite is quite bold.
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Who do you think will finish 6th ahead of them?

Bolton? Stoke? Blackpool?

I'd be very surprised if any of those sides show the staying power to finish 6th.
 
The worse thing about pointing to coming second in the 08/09 season is that Rafa was the reason they lost their lead in the end. He thought he could take on SAF head and on and came third in a two man race. It was cringeworthy, Hell, his entire Liverpool career has been cringeworthy.
 
Allforone said:
Putting all joking aside (if that's entirely possible when dealing with levels of such delusion) you have to wonder what the likes of Pasily and Shankly would make of the modern day Liverpool and its fans and what they've been reduced to, i mean wasn't it Bob Pasiley who once said finishing second is a failure at Liverpool "second is nothing" wasn't it? didn't Shankly say something like " i was here during the bad times to one year we finished 2nd" and yet to think how the scousers now champion a man for finishing second 2 years ago and winning 1 FA cup in 6 years!, its unbelievable really and to this day its considered an amazing success a man whos won so little and delivered so little is held in similar regard to their 2 greatest managers ever! its beyond laughable its damn right illness..

I can only imagine what former greats of that club would think at such things, they'd be disgusted id have thought to witness a fraud like Benitez being compared to actual winners.
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Are you deliberately misspelling Bob Paisley?

If so, its childish and a bit retarded
 
alastair said:
I don't know how you can say that, given that Liverpool are nowhere near the standard required to finish top 6. Let's assume the top 5 are the normal three, then City and Spurs, there are then loads of candidates for 6th, of which Liverpool are one.
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Haven't you just contradicted yourself there, Alastair?

"no way top 6"......"contenders top 6"

edit: I have no idea where we'll end up under this current clown.

God forbid he be given money in Jan.
 
Sam.G said:
Haven't you just contradicted yourself there, Alastair?

"no way top 6"......"contenders top 6"

edit: I have no idea where we'll end up under this current clown.

God forbid he be given money in Jan.
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You're right Sam, it massively contradicted itself. I think what I was trying to say was that in a conventional season, Liverpool shouldn't be finishing top six, but this season, given the lack of a stand-out candidate, they have a chance. Something like that.
 
alastair said:
You're right Sam, it massively contradicted itself. I think what I was trying to say was that in a conventional season, Liverpool shouldn't be finishing top six, but this season, given the lack of a stand-out candidate, they have a chance. Something like that.
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We should finish 6th in reality.

Not many teams can boast the talents of Torres, Gerrard and Reina. Definitely not Bolton, Everton, Villa et al and even Utd, Arse and the like. It's the manager and supporting crew who lets us down.

Put it this way, if Hodgson fails to deliver at least 6th above that seas of averageness, well the bloke's ineptitude knows no bounds.

In my view.
 
Sam.G said:
We should finish 6th in reality.

Not many teams can boast the talents of Torres, Gerrard and Reina. Definitely not Bolton, Everton, Villa et al and even Utd, Arse and the like. It's the manager and supporting crew who lets us down.

Put it this way, if Hodgson fails to deliver at least 6th above that seas of averageness, well the bloke's ineptitude knows no bounds.

In my view.
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What would Woy have to achieve this season for you to not think he is inept?

And, assuming Rafa had stayed, where would you have expected to finish?
 
Sky1981 said:
IMO Roy has not underachieved yet. Infact without bias I'd say he needs 1 season to steady the hangover of Rafa's last season.

Rafa's last season means alot more than just perfomance wise, it shatters the believe and confidence of the whole squad. You can see Torres never hit the same height as he was 2 years ago, ditto Gerrard, well.. carragher's finished anyway.

IMO Last seasons' major blow has dealt a tremendous trauma on the squad, they lost their self belief more than anything, and to deal with that is not as easy as tactics and personal, it needs slow build up from the bottom.

You build solid, it'll last longer, rather than relying on a combination of "onform Torres + Gerrard" and "injury less". It's what you achieve under average condition over the years that counts.

Take Arsenal, they're not considered as serius contender, but i'm sure we all know they'll be there or thereabout. I'm not sure with Liverpool
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Good post which says it all..... if you let a clueless fat maniac burn a building down, it takes some time to clear away the debris and fire damage, the carcasses of the victims and to purge the foul stench in the air, before rebuilding it, which could take time and money
 
Sam.G said:
True.

I cringed when he did in one year what it took Ferguson 15 or so to achieve.

I am still cringing in fact.

*cringes"
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Fluked a trophy and convinced a bunch of gullible fans that he was somehow a genius of football?.... thereby allowing him to spend the next few years going from disaster to disaster and then leaving you with the resulting carnage, and somehow still being seen as a messiah.... I don't remember SAF ever doing that
 
Crustanoid said:
Fluked a trophy and convinced a bunch of gullible fans that he was somehow a genius of football?.... thereby allowing him to spend the next few years going from disaster to disaster and the leaving you with the resulting carnage, and somehow still being seen as a messiah.... I don't remember SAF ever doing that
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Oh my god - how many times are people going to argue that Benitez fluked the European Cup win? It's the most ridiculous argument in the history of the internet.
 
Sam.G said:
We should finish 6th in reality.

Not many teams can boast the talents of Torres, Gerrard and Reina. Definitely not Bolton, Everton, Villa et al and even Utd, Arse and the like. It's the manager and supporting crew who lets us down.

Put it this way, if Hodgson fails to deliver at least 6th above that seas of averageness, well the bloke's ineptitude knows no bounds.

In my view.
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The problem is going to be away form, massively. You can't get away from the fact that Hodgson has won fewer than 10 away games in the Premier League in his life time. And when you're literally looking at gaining 12-15 points away from home in the season, you're going to struggle to get sixth, unless your home form is top notch.

I sympathise with players like Reina, Gerrard and Torres to an extent, because they have no chance to excel with a manager like Hodgson. But perhaps Gerrard's moaning about Benitez' training schemes is going to come back to haunt him. It would certainly be interesting to hear who Gerrard would honestly prefer to have in charge now.
 
Sam.G said:
Roy? At least putting up a challenge for a top 4 spot.
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You think Rafa would have had a chance of doing the same with the squad he left behind? City and Spurs have far superior squads to you now. Rafa only managed 7th last season with a better squad and facing weaker competition from City and Spurs. Face it, your squad just isn't good enough.
 
SharkyMcShark said:
I doubt that
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It seriously is. Fluking a European Cup win, despite beating some of the best teams in the world along the way. It seems to me that it almost doesn't count as a win because they were 3-0 down. But when United were battered against Bayern for 85 minutes in '99 and won it, suddenly it's incredible management and a deserved victory. No-one ever calls that game a fluke, and nor should they. But you can't call '05 a fluke either, it's ludicrous.
 
alastair said:
It seriously is. Fluking a European Cup win, despite beating some of the best teams in the world along the way. It seems to me that it almost doesn't count as a win because they were 3-0 down. But when United were battered against Bayern for 85 minutes in '99 and won it, suddenly it's incredible management and a deserved victory. No-one ever calls that game a fluke, and nor should they. But you can't call '05 a fluke either, it's ludicrous.
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it's also the various inconsistencies on the way to the final - ie penalty decision turning into a goal kick in an earlier round
 
EricaNo7 said:
it's also the various inconsistencies on the way to the final - ie penalty decision turning into a goal kick in an earlier round
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Yep, because no other side has ever had a fortunate decision go their way on the run in to a final. Calling any European Cup win a fluke is just silly. It's a hugely difficult competition to win, and every side has good/bad luck along the way.
 
EricaNo7 said:
just your opinion, Alastair, I'm afraid, but it doesn't mean you're necessarily right
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In this case, it really does. You're basically arguing that Liverpool fluked a tournament which consisted of a group stage and four knockout rounds, only one of which was a one-off game. That's a hell of a lot of refereeing decisions that went for them. Scoring late goals or turning around defecits isn't luck, as United would testify.
 
alastair said:
In this case, it really does. You're basically arguing that Liverpool fluked a tournament which consisted of a group stage and four knockout rounds, only one of which was a one-off game. That's a hell of a lot of refereeing decisions that went for them. Scoring late goals or turning around defecits isn't luck, as United would testify.
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they did seem to have an awful lot of luck going for them , Alastair, wouldn't you agree on that?
 
I thought both us and the Scousers had a shitload of luck to win those games, and also both showed a lot of grit.

Let's be honest, we were totally outplayed by Bayern. They sat back and soaked it up after they scored, but still hit the woodwork twice on the counter. We were lucky not to be 2- or 3-0 down by the time those last minutes came by. But, we kept fighting to the bitter (or not in fact bitter!) end, and probably deserved it for that - I think Beckenbauer said something along those lines. To fight back without Keano, especially, and also Scholes, was particularly impressive.

As for Pool, to go 3-0 down in the first half is just embarrassing, and does somewhat deflate the idea of Rafa's tactical nous in Europe. They were lucky that Milan let them back in from there. They were also lucky that Shevchenko missed the goal from no yards out at the death. And winning on penalties takes a certain amount of luck. But the fact is, they did get back from there. Some of that was Milan imploding, but a lot of it was Steve Gerrard saying I'm not fecking having this, and galvanising the team to a famous comeback.

So, both sides were lucky, and both of us showed some real character and earned the right to be called champions.

It's possible to think Rafa had some luck on their run, and went on to buy dreadfully and then comically lose the plot, whilst also acknowledging that he did some good things with them too.
 
alastair said:
No, I don't think they had any more luck or bad luck than you did in '99 or '08.
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You could play the 2005 European Cup 100 times over from start to finish and Liverpool would only win a handful.

Play '99 or '08 over and over, and United would probably win 50% of them. Worth noting we went unbeaten in the competition both years.

Invincibles. :cool:
 
Kraftwerker said:
You could play the 2005 European Cup 100 times over from start to finish and Liverpool would only win a handful.

Play '99 or '08 over and over, and United would probably win 50% of them. Worth noting we went unbeaten in the competition both years.

Invincibles. :cool:
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In '08, you'd win 50% yeh. But 1-0 down after 88 minutes, and winning. That happens only "a handful" of times a century.

I just hate the whole attitude that something is luck. No it isn't, it's because one side played better than the other. There's no luck in football, as long as the referee hasn't made a shite decision or something.
 
alastair said:
In '08, you'd win 50% yeh. But 1-0 down after 88 minutes, and winning. That happens only "a handful" of times a century.

I just hate the whole attitude that something is luck. No it isn't, it's because one side played better than the other. There's no luck in football, as long as the referee hasn't made a shite decision or something.
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But we might not be 1-0 down in the first place.

My point is United were probably the best team in Europe that season in terms of talent, so you could replay the tournament over and over, and United would win it a good portion of the time, roughly 50% I reckon.

Liverpool were nowhere near the best team in Europe when they won it. You could replay that tournament over and over, and Liverpool would not win many at all (they'd probably crash out of the group stages over half the time).

In 2005 everything fell into place at the right time, they got the rub when they needed it, and they did a Greece.
 
Kraftwerker said:
But we might not be 1-0 down in the first place.

My point is United were probably the best team in Europe that season in terms of talent, so you could replay the tournament over and over, and United would win it a good portion of the time, roughly 50% I reckon.

Liverpool were nowhere near the best team in Europe when they won it. You could replay that tournament over and over, and Liverpool would not win many at all (they'd probably crash out of the group stages over half the time).

In 2005 everything fell into place at the right time, they got the rub when they needed it, and they did a Greece.
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Yeh, I sort of agree with you, in the sense that there was no way they were the best side in Europe at the time of their victory. We almost did a very similar thing - in '06 we were by no means the second best side in Europe, yet we got to the final.

But that's where I differentiate between things falling for you a tad, and luck. Liverpool had no sort of league campaign that year, and consequently could rest players in the league in preparation for their big European games. That is how it fell for them, but I wouldn't call that luck as such.

So yeh, basically things fell for them, and made their victory in '05 perhaps a little bit more attainable than it would be ordinarily, but I wouldn't go as far to say they got lucky.
 
Arsenal win the 'Least Deserved Piece of Silverware from 2005' award hands down.
 
alastair said:
Yeh, I sort of agree with you, in the sense that there was no way they were the best side in Europe at the time of their victory. We almost did a very similar thing - in '06 we were by no means the second best side in Europe, yet we got to the final.

But that's where I differentiate between things falling for you a tad, and luck. Liverpool had no sort of league campaign that year, and consequently could rest players in the league in preparation for their big European games. That is how it fell for them, but I wouldn't call that luck as such.

So yeh, basically things fell for them, and made their victory in '05 perhaps a little bit more attainable than it would be ordinarily, but I wouldn't go as far to say they got lucky.
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There is no difference between 'things falling for you' and luck. You may prefer to use a different word because 'luck' has some unwanted connotations. But that's what it is, and of course it exists in football. That's what it means to say the sort of thing you've been saying above, like "If you play that game against Bayern 100 times, you only win it a couple". It's the way a million little things fall, from a decision to award a throw-in to an unlikely bounce of the ball to your best player getting unfairly suspended.

We were lucky in 99, Pool were lucky in 05. But we both showed character and in some respects deserved to be champions.
 
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