Russia Discussion

iSparky

Likes Dags. but not as much as his Dad
Joined
Oct 11, 2006
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Really starting to all fall apart very fast over there now. The truce that they agreed last night crumbled in a few hours. The death toll is rising and the latest reports indicate 67 police are being held captive by protesters. Which, if true means that the situation is really going to escalate even further and fast too.

http://news.sky.com/story/1214512/kiev-33-killed-as-ukraine-truce-crumbles

Police firing live rounds at them, intense stuff.
 
It looks like it is going to get a lot worse before it gets better too. The protesters are building big double barricades on the side of the square where the police are now.
 
iSparky said:
Really starting to all fall apart very fast over there now. The truce that they agreed last night crumbled in a few hours. The death toll is rising and the latest reports indicate 67 police are being held captive by protesters. Which, if true means that the situation is really going to escalate even further and fast too.

http://news.sky.com/story/1214512/kiev-33-killed-as-ukraine-truce-crumbles

Police firing live rounds at them, intense stuff.
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Neither side has control of their people. I don't think that most of the protestors want a civil war, but they just might get one if they can't control their far-right elements. And those elements are at the fore-front the last few days.
 
Death toll climbing over 70 now apparently.
 
Seen some absolutely shocking videos. People literally being executed from far. Dear God, was totally unaware this was happening.
 
Breaking on BBC, EU sanctions have been imposed on government officials in the Ukraine.
 
Tragic. Spent a few days in Kiev last year. Lovely city and people.
 
"President Barack Obama, in a public statement delivered during a state visit to Mexico, threatened that “there will be consequences if people step over the line.” He hastened to make clear that Washington is referring not to the right-wing demonstrators who have attacked security forces with gunfire, firebombs, paving stones and clubs. Rather, he said, “We hold the Ukrainian government primarily responsible.”

The US president went on to state, “There is still the possibility of a peaceful transition.”

This is a euphemism for a deal dictated by Washington that results in the ouster of the elected president, Viktor Yanukovych, and the installation of a regime that is closely aligned with the US and NATO and hostile to Russia."

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/02/20/ukra-f20.html
 
Mihajlovic said:
"President Barack Obama, in a public statement delivered during a state visit to Mexico, threatened that “there will be consequences if people step over the line.” He hastened to make clear that Washington is referring not to the right-wing demonstrators who have attacked security forces with gunfire, firebombs, paving stones and clubs. Rather, he said, “We hold the Ukrainian government primarily responsible.”

The US president went on to state, “There is still the possibility of a peaceful transition.”

This is a euphemism for a deal dictated by Washington that results in the ouster of the elected president, Viktor Yanukovych, and the installation of a regime that is closely aligned with the US and NATO and hostile to Russia."

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/02/20/ukra-f20.html
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No shock the US backs the side that leans towards the west and Russia backs the side that leads towards Russia, go figure. And in between as always sit the people who pay the biggest price.
 
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I saw today videos of people getting shot by police. More than 30 victims today. Shit is happening for real there.
 
This was always going to happen once the police/internal troops decided to start shooting at the protestors. Now that some of the protestors have started responding with violence, it's only going to get worse. Yanukovych's move to Putin-esque autocracy isn't as smooth as his it was for the man behind the curtain. Even if Yanukovych's effort to suppress the protests works for now, Western Ukraine and many other areas will never be content to live under Russia's thumb again.

The Crimea has apparently said they would move to join Russia if the government doesn't crack down. :lol:
 
Sir Matt said:
This was always going to happen once the police/internal troops decided to start shooting at the protestors. Now that some of the protestors have started responding with violence, it's only going to get worse. Yanukovych's move to Putin-esque autocracy isn't as smooth as his it was for the man behind the curtain. Even if Yanukovych's effort to suppress the protests works for now, Western Ukraine and many other areas will never be content to live under Russia's thumb again.

The Crimea has apparently said they would move to join Russia if the government doesn't crack down. :lol:
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Yanukovich is basically gone, I don't think even Putin intends to save him now. His position is untenable as it is his person and his government that unites the entire opposition. The authorities' brutality managed to unite lots and lots of people who have very different goals in this whole thing.

Living in Hungary, these events are terrifying. Our prime minister gave Putin a blank cheque and pretty much sold out the country to Russia and at this point I'm beginning to fear that it will be almost impossible to remove him peacefully. The national radio and TV are nothing but the voice of the Hungarian government these days and their reports about the Kiev events are, at best, very misleading and one-sided - one might call them blatant lies. They're talking about the Ukrainian authorities fighting "terrorists", they emphasise the casualties suffered by police and the army... it's sickening.

Clearly, it's not just saints over there in Ukraine, fighting the government forces but it's not just 'extremists' and 'Neo Nazis' either. I read some brilliant reports from journalists who are right there, in Kiev, and while it's all confusing and chaotic, thousands of 'ordinary' people are fighting and working for this revolution, too.
 
I wonder what the govt's of usa and uk would do in a situation where protestors start shooting back ? We've already seen what they're capable of doing to peaceful protestors. Make no mistake they'd be firing back like any other govt.
 
Interesting words attributed to the Polish foreign minister to the Maidan protesters to the effect of agree to the terms of the new truce proposals or it will be martial law and you will be dead! It looks like the EU may have brokered some kind of deal, although the EU needs to be bold in this situation - if this were a game of poker, Russia is playing a massive bluff. Russia can't afford to subside the current regime without cutting back spending at home and thereby risking domestic unrest.
 
VidaRed said:
I wonder what the govt's of usa and uk would do in a situation where protestors start shooting back ? We've already seen what they're capable of doing to peaceful protestors. Make no mistake they'd be firing back like any other govt.
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And other governments would probably be issuing statements condeming the US or UK governments for doing so, welcome to the world.
 
article-2564573-1BB4CC0900000578-867_964x633.jpg
 
Yanukovych left Kiev and took his security forces with him. He refuses to resign but the protestors have control of all of Kiev. Tymoshenko has been released by parliament and it also voted to impeach Yanukovych.

Meanwhile in the east, the more pro-Russian regions are saying they won't be governed by Kiev. Putin cutting his losses and hoping there's a split with the possibility of annexing the east?
 
Sir Matt said:
Yanukovych left Kiev and took his security forces with him. He refuses to resign but the protestors have control of all of Kiev. Tymoshenko has been released by parliament and it also voted to impeach Yanukovych.

Meanwhile in the east, the more pro-Russian regions are saying they won't be governed by Kiev. Putin cutting his losses and hoping there's a split with the possibility of annexing the east?
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I would say that's a tactical move. He probably anticipates that the agreement signed yesterday will collapse and could lead to civil war. Leave Kiev and consolidate somewhere where his supporters are strong and he has somewhere to work from.
 
Andrew~ said:
I would say that's a tactical move. He probably anticipates that the agreement signed yesterday will collapse and could lead to civil war. Leave Kiev and consolidate somewhere where his supporters are strong and he has somewhere to work from.
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I don't think there will be civil war now. Parliament, including members of his own party, voted to impeach him and scheduled elections for May 27th. He's allegedly tried to get on a flight to Russia but was prevented from doing it and is now in Donetsk, which is more friendly.
 
They can't stop him from going to Russia as he would simply do so from Khirkiv or Donetsk. Exciting times in Ukraine. I spend a lot of time there and its blighted by rampant corruption; mainly due to the pro-Russian political mafia.
 
Sir Matt said:
I don't think there will be civil war now. Parliament, including members of his own party, voted to impeach him and scheduled elections for May 27th. He's allegedly tried to get on a flight to Russia but was prevented from doing it and is now in Donetsk, which is more friendly.
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Oh, fair enough. I'm a little bit behind on the news there.
 
Andrew~ said:
Oh, fair enough. I'm a little bit behind on the news there.
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There could be, I guess, since the eastern regions have said the national parliament's actions are invalid and they are taking control of their regions. Everything is happening quickly.
 
It makes the riots we had a few years back seem like a pillow fight, wasn't until yesterday that I realised how bad it was, absolutely shocking
 
Raoul said:
They can't stop him from going to Russia as he would simply do so from Khirkiv or Donetsk. Exciting times in Ukraine. I spend a lot of time there and its blighted by rampant corruption; mainly due to the pro-Russian political mafia.
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All governments are corrupt. Whatever new government comes after Janukovic is going to be corrupt as well. Similar type of crap has happened in all post-communist/socialist countries, get rid of the 'despots' and replace them by 'democratic, pro-western' marionettes. Hardly any ex-Yugoslav republic is better off now than 20 years ago. You can observe the same in Romania and Bulgaria, and I bet the same is gonna happen in Ukraina.
 
Mihajlovic said:
All governments are corrupt. Whatever new government comes after Janukovic is going to be corrupt as well. Similar type of crap has happened in all post-communist/socialist countries, get rid of the 'despots' and replace them by 'democratic, pro-western' marionettes. Hardly any ex-Yugoslav republic is better off now than 20 years ago. You can observe the same in Romania and Bulgaria, and I bet the same is gonna happen in Ukraina.
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There may be varying levels of corruption elsewhere, but few in at Ukraine's level. Yanukovic's son for example, has suddenly become one of the wealthiest men in Ukraine during his Dad's tenure in office. The western part of the country seems less affected, whereas the south and east are worse off.

It's too soon to analyze the former Eastern block countries on corruption IMO. Things tend to take 20-30 years to improve.
 
Mihajlovic said:
All governments are corrupt. Whatever new government comes after Janukovic is going to be corrupt as well. Similar type of crap has happened in all post-communist/socialist countries, get rid of the 'despots' and replace them by 'democratic, pro-western' marionettes. Hardly any ex-Yugoslav republic is better off now than 20 years ago. You can observe the same in Romania and Bulgaria, and I bet the same is gonna happen in Ukraina.
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Even Vitali? :( I hope not.
 
Dwazza Van Porschie said:
Even Vitali? :( I hope not.
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Who knows about Vitali but I hope he is a good guy. The comparisons are fairly selective anyway. Ukraine's western neighbour and other former ruler (for longer than Russia for what it's worth) is a hell of a lot better off than Ukraine now. Plus, unless you have actually lived in a society like Ukraine or Russia, I don't think you can get a true sense of just how endemic and corrosive the corruption actually is. It is certainly far worse than any EU country, including the new ones.
 
My summer holiday in Yalta in potential tatters.
 
Crimea was handed over to Ukraine from Russia in Krushchev's day so it is not exactly integral territory (in fact it was largely Tartar territory before Stalin deported them all). The main thing is keeping most of left bank (namely east) Ukraine part of the same entity. The EU will need to offer something other than kind words.
 
What happens if Russia invades the Crimea? Until Yanukovych returned to office, the Ukraine was interested in joining NATO but then dropped plans once the pro-Russians took office. I imagine lots of hand-wringing on the part of the EU and US but not much interest in serious military action.
 
Sir Matt said:
What happens if Russia invades the Crimea? Until Yanukovych returned to office, the Ukraine was interested in joining NATO but then dropped plans once the pro-Russians took office. I imagine lots of hand-wringing on the part of the EU and US but not much interest in serious military action.
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Pretty much as you say - strong words, at most sanctions against the Russian leadership but not military intervention. The US is probably not that interested and the EU is divided. Although, in this 100th anniversary year, we probably shouldn't be too complacent about the potential fallout from disputes in relatively insignificant Eastern European borderlands.
 
Not sure what the value of Russian special forces commandeering Simferopol tiny airport. Stopping tourists from visiting ?
 
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