Russia Discussion

That's hardly the point. The topic is should Europe and USA get involved in an armed conflict. Some of us believe that should absolutely be the very last resort.

Well I wasn't trying to avoid the topic as I actually thought that was the point.

Still, I don't think we should get involved in an armed conflict. I'm not advocating bombing Moscow. I just don't believe we should avoid doing anything as it might set Putin off. Someone posted earlier that economic sanctions were a bad idea as they might lead to military escalation. I believe that doing nothing at all will encourage Putin to do similar things in the future. I also believe that there's a middle ground between doing nothing and WW3.
 
I'd probably agree with what you posted.
My issue is that some see people's preference for EU/US as proof of CIA meddling rather than proof of Russias failings. Why is this happening in Ukraine not Mexico? The answer is that it's alot better to be in Americas 'orbit' than Russias.
(That questions rhetorical. I'm asking it to you as 711 is offended by my use of smilies and Mihajlovic seems to have interpreted my use of logic as trolling)
Even though this conflict in its isolation might be justifiable I personally think people are getting tired of USA's foreign policy, constantly being involved in conflicts. I don't think anyone is particularly supporting Russia.
 
Even though this conflict in its isolation might be justifiable I personally think people are getting tired of USA's foreign policy, constantly being involved in conflicts. I don't think anyone is particularly supporting Russia.

I can actually understand that. I'm 21 so maybe I don't feel quite as much anger towards the US as older posters do. Also, I'm Irish so again I don't have the history with the US that others do. I do view this conflict in isolation which is probably where the difference is. I just get frustrated when pointing out the difference between Maidan protesters and Russian soldiers in Crimea is called 'trolling'.
 
I just get frustrated when pointing out the difference between Maidan protesters and Russian soldiers in Crimea is called 'trolling'.
You'll need to be thick skinned to survive in the CE forum.
 
You'll need to be thick skinned to survive in the CE forum.

True. I actually promised myself that I'd never block anyone on the Caf. I'd either learn from their opinions or learn to ignore them. Still, I'd be relieved if I found out that they'd put me on ignore. :lol:
 
To avoid confusion Tyrion I regard the US as a tremendous ally and I support the Nato alliance with my country, Britain.
But that doesn't mean blind support, just that if I question their actions it is as a friend, not an enemy.
 
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To avoid confusion Tyrion I regard the US as a tremendous ally and I support the Nato alliance with my country, Britain.
But that doesn't mean blind support, just that if I question their actions it is as a friend, not an enemy.

I agree with this and certainly don't believe the US is above criticism. There are many things the US can improve on in terms of international politics.
 
Russian opposition figure Boris Nemtsov murdered in Moscow
Massive news coming out of Moscow - Opposition activist Boris Nemtsov was murdered with 4 bullets to the chest, a mere two days before a planned massive protest was to take place.

Russia opposition politician Boris Nemtsov 'shot dead'

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31669061
 
I remember laughing at his interview from feb 10, where he said that he was afraid of Putin killing him. Wtf. Never liked the guy, but I just can't acknowledge that it really happened. Like in freaking 90's.
 
Massive news coming out of Moscow - Opposition activist Boris Nemtsov was murdered with 4 bullets to the chest, a mere two days before a planned massive protest was to take place.

Russia opposition politician Boris Nemtsov 'shot dead'

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31669061

Russia being a democratic state is an absolute joke. The claim has been laughable for years, but now there isn't even a case to be made that it's anything other than a gangster state ruled by an agreement between Putin and various criminal oligarchs.
 
Russia being a democratic state is an absolute joke. The claim has been laughable for years, but now there isn't even a case to be made that it's anything other than a gangster state ruled by an agreement between Putin and various criminal oligarchs.

Yep, I've been saying this for months. Putin will do anything to stay in power and his greatest fear is a popular uprising within Russia that will do what they did in Ukraine, which is why he has cracked down on descent.
 
We already know it was Putin before police even started the investigation? Interesting.
 
We already know it was Putin before police even started the investigation? Interesting.

We'll probably never find out if Putin is directly involved in this particular incident, but isn't it funny how so many thorns in his side (whether oppo politicians or probing journos) end up dead or in prison. He has clearly created a system of fear that works in his favour, and has no intention of changing things.
 
I'm sure President Putin and the authorities will get to the bottom of this. :)
:nono: Putin has no relations to police investigation. Separation of powers and everything. yeah, right
 
Shocking news but it doesn't make total sense to me in terms of framing Putin for the murder. Nemtsov is (was) very much yesterday's man and no real threat in terms of a potential rival or rallying point for the opposition. Navalny would be a much more obvious target. If I were to speculate, I'd guess it is an act of some rogue element in the military or security forces acting in response to his opposition to the war with Ukraine. The more frightening explanation of course is that it is a message from the top to intimidate other opposition figures - that would explain the very public nature of the killing. Although, with a few exceptions, the opposition is fairly cowed already.
 
Shocking news but it doesn't make total sense to me in terms of framing Putin for the murder. Nemtsov is (was) very much yesterday's man and no real threat in terms of a potential rival or rallying point for the opposition. Navalny would be a much more obvious target. If I were to speculate, I'd guess it is an act of some rogue element in the military or security forces acting in response to his opposition to the war with Ukraine. The more frightening explanation of course is that it is a message from the top to intimidate other opposition figures - that would explain the very public nature of the killing. Although, with a few exceptions, the opposition is fairly cowed already.

Posted this in the newbs....

He's apparently been quite critical of Putin lately - which possibly sealed his fate.

Example 1: http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/4ecd1a04-bd1d-11e4-b523-00144feab7de.html#axzz3SzoFOUr1

Boris Nemtsov, a veteran liberal opposition politician who briefly served as deputy prime minister under Boris Yeltsin in the 1990s, says stagnant wages and soaring inflation topped the agenda when he met with residents of Yaroslavl, a town northeast of Moscow, last week. “They believed that the embargo on imported foods is America’s fault, and they were surprised when I told them no, that was not Obama, it was Putin,” he says. “This is what we need to make people aware of: the crisis, that’s Putin.”

Example 2 : http://www.kyivpost.com/opinion/op-ed/why-does-putin-wage-war-on-ukraine-362884.html

Example 3: http://maidantranslations.com/2014/...utin-beat-everyone-russia-first-and-foremost/


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He's basically been taking Putin to task with the Russian public by blaming him for stagnant wages, inflation, and the war in eastern Ukraine. In one article he questioned why Putin was denying the existence of Russian involvement in the eastern Ukraine war when Russian troops were dying. I'd imagine, Vlad, who has never been modest about his paranoia, wanted to take care of business before things spiralled out of control.
 
Shocking news but it doesn't make total sense to me in terms of framing Putin for the murder. Nemtsov is (was) very much yesterday's man and no real threat in terms of a potential rival or rallying point for the opposition. Navalny would be a much more obvious target. If I were to speculate, I'd guess it is an act of some rogue element in the military or security forces acting in response to his opposition to the war with Ukraine. The more frightening explanation of course is that it is a message from the top to intimidate other opposition figures - that would explain the very public nature of the killing. Although, with a few exceptions, the opposition is fairly cowed already.
I agree with you, actually. Like most of the stupidest and cruelest decisions this one was probably made without Putin's direct order - just because someone thought that it was what he would've wanted. The public nature is probably from 90's - they just used to do it that way and felt that it's time for them to put their skills to use.

Maybe not - but we won't know it for 50 years at least, or, most likely, never.
 
Amazing photo:

Nemtsov-Murder.jpg
 


That's exactly what we're afraid of, bud.

A clip from Anthony Bourdain's food show in Russia with Nemtsov:
 
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Shocking news but it doesn't make total sense to me in terms of framing Putin for the murder. Nemtsov is (was) very much yesterday's man and no real threat in terms of a potential rival or rallying point for the opposition. Navalny would be a much more obvious target. If I were to speculate, I'd guess it is an act of some rogue element in the military or security forces acting in response to his opposition to the war with Ukraine. The more frightening explanation of course is that it is a message from the top to intimidate other opposition figures - that would explain the very public nature of the killing. Although, with a few exceptions, the opposition is fairly cowed already.

Conveniently, Navalny will be in jail tomorrow for handing out leaflets. The villain.
 
Russia will be akin to North Korea in 20 years or so.
 
Nemtsov had no influence on the majority of Russians and that's the reality. He was well known in the 90s when he was close to Yeltsin but that was long time ago and for most Russians that time and that government will be forever associated with all the negative things that happened to the country and its citizens since the Soviet Union fell apart. For Putin, dead Nemtsov is actually a much bigger problem, because it gives his enemies, in and outside of the country, a stick to beat him with. Those protest marches Nemtsov and other opposition leaders organized in Moscow and few other cities were, for the most part, nothing, but a minor annoyance for the government. At the height of the opposition activity back in 2012 those protests would have had close to a 150,000 - 200,000 participants at the most, but those were not just Nemtsov supporters, but rather a gathering of various groups with different ideologies, from liberals to ultra nationalists and the only common ground they had was their negative attitude towards Putin's regime.

But since then the opposition movement fell apart and nowadays those marches are barely worth a mention. Like I said, it makes absolutely no sense for Putin to get rid of Nemtsov, especially in such a blatant display, right in the center of Moscow. If it's a political assasination and everyone assumes it is, it's done by those who want to hurt Putin or at least weaken his position. It may be a result of a power struggle inside Kremlin hierarchy, could be a plan to undermine Putin and weaken his position by those who want to take over. Who knows.

Last, but not least. Regardless of my feelings towards Nemtsov as a politician, I feel genuinely sorry about his death and my deepest sympathies are with his family. I hope those guilty of the crime are found and we'll find out the truth behind it. R.I.P.
 
Nemtsov had no influence on the majority of Russians and that's the reality. He was well known in the 90s when he was close to Yeltsin but that was long time ago and for most Russians that time and that government will be forever associated with all the negative things that happened to the country and its citizens since the Soviet Union fell apart. For Putin, dead Nemtsov is actually a much bigger problem, because it gives his enemies, in and outside of the country, a stick to beat him with. Those protest marches Nemtsov and other opposition leaders organized in Moscow and few other cities were, for the most part, nothing, but a minor annoyance for the government. At the height of the opposition activity back in 2012 those protests would have had close to a 150,000 - 200,000 participants at the most, but those were not just Nemtsov supporters, but rather a gathering of various groups with different ideologies, from liberals to ultra nationalists and the only common ground they had was their negative attitude towards Putin's regime.

But since then the opposition movement fell apart and nowadays those marches are barely worth a mention. Like I said, it makes absolutely no sense for Putin to get rid of Nemtsov, especially in such a blatant display, right in the center of Moscow. If it's a political assasination and everyone assumes it is, it's done by those who want to hurt Putin or at least weaken his position. It may be a result of a power struggle inside Kremlin hierarchy, could be a plan to undermine Putin and weaken his position by those who want to take over. Who knows.

Last, but not least. Regardless of my feelings towards Nemtsov as a politician, I feel genuinely sorry about his death and my deepest sympathies are with his family. I hope those guilty of the crime are found and we'll find out the truth behind it. R.I.P.

Could it not be as simple as "look at just how above the law I am now, we all know I had him assassinated and let this be a very clear message to the next person who wishes to speak publicly against me". Classic brazen mafia tactics.
 
Could it not be as simple as "look at just how above the law I am now, we all know I had him assassinated and let this be a very clear message to the next person who wishes to speak publicly against me". Classic brazen mafia tactics.

Very very unlikely. People in Russia are not illeterate and dumb, they do not see everything as black or white. Nemtsov was not important figure on Russia's political scene, so assassinating him publicly makes no sense of whatsoever. I never liked Nemtsov as a politician, I am sure he contributed to milking the country in 90s, however, I am deeply saddened by this murder. RIP Boris.
 
Very very unlikely. People in Russia are not illeterate and dumb, they do not see everything as black or white. Nemtsov was not important figure on Russia's political scene, so assassinating him publicly makes no sense of whatsoever. I never liked Nemtsov as a politician, I am sure he contributed to milking the country in 90s, however, I am deeply saddened by this murder. RIP Boris.

Why do you have to be illiterate or dumb to be given a reason to fear disobeying your govenrment? It's a dictatorship already thanks to faux elections, he's just making the iron first even tighter.
 
@Pexbo, have you ever been to Russia? What are your assumptions based on? Putin is no liberal, but calling him a dictator is plain stupid. If Putin is to be called a dictator, then some of the governments who have completely ruined other countries, killed thousands and at times millions of people, supported illegitimate governments and did not give a flying feck about UN and its security council are to be classified as terrorists who continue to perform crimes against humanity. Putin would win any elections now, easily.
 
@Pexbo, have you ever been to Russia? What are your assumptions based on? Putin is no liberal, but calling him a dictator is plain stupid. If Putin is to be called a dictator, then some of the governments who have completely ruined other countries, killed thousands and at times millions of people, supported illegitimate governments and did not give a flying feck about UN and its security council are to be classified as terrorists who continue to perform crimes against humanity. Putin would win any elections now, easily.

You're talking about common acts that are associated with dictatorships. A dictatorship literally means a government that monopolises political authority. He doesn't have to perform genocide to be a dictator.

He's "allegedly" had political rivals, journalists and protestors killed or jailed to ensure the only propaganda surrounding him is the one created by his people.

He might win any election, easily, but would he do so if he hadn't created such a ridiculously imbalanced playing field where rivals were allowed to speak the truth about him and strike up fair debate and journalists were allowed to print articles that questioned his ability to run the country and blame him for Russia's current problems?


I'm sure Kim Jong-Un would also win any election in North Korea. The North Korean's for the most part think the sun shines out of his arse because there's nobody there to tell them it doesn't. It's getting exactly the same way in Russia, who knows what he will do if/when he no longer has to worry about public support to stay in power.
 
Yeah you're right. He's just like Kim Jong-Un and Russia is just like North Korea. Putin is just a big mob boss who kills people right in the center of Moscow to send everyone a message. Even when he doesn't really need to kill, he just does it because he can and everyone is afraid to speak out against him because they'll be next. The killers on his payroll are also quite inept, the victim was Putin's critic for over a decade and all this time he was a public figure and wasn't hiding, freely travelling around the country and abroad and yet they just now caught up with him. Moreover, since the murder scene is so close to Kremlin, I wouldn't dismiss the possibility of Putin himself spotting the opposition leader from his office window and shooting him from a sniper rifle. In fact, it's more probable than most of what you've just written.
 
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Like I said, it makes absolutely no sense for Putin to get rid of Nemtsov, especially in such a blatant display, right in the center of Moscow. If it's a political assasination and everyone assumes it is, it's done by those who want to hurt Putin or at least weaken his position. It may be a result of a power struggle inside Kremlin hierarchy, could be a plan to undermine Putin and weaken his position by those who want to take over. Who knows.

He (and his supporters, not always with his involvement) has a history of making stupid and illogical political decisions. In the current situation, when the levels of hatred are over the top (don't tell me you don't feel it yourself), it's more than possible that some of his followers decided that he isn't a patriot and doesn't deserve to live. I don't believe that Putin himself was involved - as you and others said, he was very much yesterday person and didn't possess any threat to regime. @Raoul overestimates him because Nemtsov (much like Kasyanov and Kasparov) is very west-oriented and was more concerned about his image as an opposition leader on the west than actually in Russia.

Yet, Nilov and others, who said that it was just a provocation to boost the protest's attendance are ridiculous, imo. And that Reichstag 1933 analogy :confused:

Could it not be as simple as "look at just how above the law I am now, we all know I had him assassinated and let this be a very clear message to the next person who wishes to speak publicly against me". Classic brazen mafia tactics.

Many people speak freely and publicly (well, as publicly as Nemtsov) against Putin. Nobody would allow it on federal channels, but still. Seriously, what he was saying was nothing out of the ordinary. Very unlikely scenario.
 
Putin would win any elections now, easily.
Winning elections and approval ratings are simply a function of controlling the press. To be fair, that's not just the case in Russia.