Russia Discussion

Raoul said:
Good point. There's no rationalization for Putin's policies other than to preserve his own power. And if you challenge that, well then its time to blame everything on the west.
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Well, let us be honest and objective here. We all know Jennifer Psaki, right? Now let's watch this
 
There was a poster who accused Russia of invading Georgia. I hope he does not come up with "it was all staged" nonsense.
 
Nobody in Russia will tell you that Putin is an angel. However, you can not expect Russia to stay silent, when it comes to affairs taking place right on its border. As said before, I am fully behind Putin's foreign policy. We have all witnessed 9/11, we know that it was used as an excuse to invade Afghanistan. Is Afghanistan a more stable state now? Has it gotten any better in Iraq, Libya? How many people were killed? Do you know the level of radiation in Fallujah? http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...on-fallujah-worse-than-hiroshima-2034065.html
Now theres a war in the Ukraine. Do you expect Russia to sit back and just watch this? The fecking neo-nazis calling for beheading anyone who speaks Russian right in the center of Kiev. I have been there. My wife was there, she is not a citizen of Russia, but her native language is Russian. Believe me you do not want to experience what we did. Imagine people on the Time square calling for beheading everyone who speaks Spanish. Also, all countries in the world have their own geopolitical interests. It is not an exclusive right of the US government. Government is the key word, because I have worked and made friends with US citizens in many countries and they are all decent people. Do we agree that US invaded Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya or not? Is USA involved in what is going in Syria? Now how on Earth, do you expect Russia to remain silent and neutral to the things happening on its state border? Of course they will react. Just like China would or this very US government would, should something similar have been happening on US/Mexican border.
 
Water Melon said:
Nobody in Russia will tell you that Putin is an angel. However, you can not expect Russia to stay silent, when it comes to affairs taking place right on its border. As said before, I am fully behind Putin's foreign policy. We have all witnessed 9/11, we know that it was used as an excuse to invade Afghanistan. Is Afghanistan a more stable state now? Has it gotten any better in Iraq, Libya? How many people were killed? Do you know the level of radiation in Fallujah? http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...on-fallujah-worse-than-hiroshima-2034065.html
Now theres a war in the Ukraine. Do you expect Russia to sit back and just watch this? The fecking neo-nazis calling for beheading anyone who speaks Russian right in the center of Kiev. I have been there. My wife was there, she is not a citizen of Russia, but her native language is Russian. Believe me you do not want to experience what we did. Imagine people on the Time square calling for beheading everyone who speaks Spanish. Also, all countries in the world have their own geopolitical interests. It is not an exclusive right of the US government. Government is the key word, because I have worked and made friends with US citizens in many countries and they are all decent people. Do we agree that US invaded Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya or not? Is USA involved in what is going in Syria? Now how on Earth, do you expect Russia to remain silent and neutral to the things happening on its state border? Of course they will react. Just like China would or this very US government would, should something similar have been happening on US/Mexican border.
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They can't sit back and watch it because they started it and are fighting in it. If you invade some ones country then they are going hate you for it. Putin has caused what was a political and internal matter to become an international crisis by driving tanks into a foreign country annexing part of it in a direct land grab not seen in Europe for fifty years. Saying Putin isn't a angel doesn't really cover it does it? All the death and hardship, fear and hatred, is all Russia's doing now. You can not condemn the US for its actions and then say it is OK for Russia to do exactly the same without being an enormous hypocrite. Iraq is the US's responsibility because they broke it. Ukraine is Russia's responsibility because they broke it.

The damage Putin's foreign policy is doing to Russia's relations with the rest of Europe/US is enormous and ordinary Russians are going pay a very high price for it.
 
Don't Kill Bill said:
They can't sit back and watch it because they started it and are fighting in it. If you invade some ones country then they are going hate you for it. Putin has caused what was a political and internal matter to become an international crisis by driving tanks into a foreign country annexing part of it in a direct land grab not seen in Europe for fifty years. Saying Putin isn't a angel doesn't really cover it does it? All the death and hardship, fear and hatred, is all Russia's doing now. You can not condemn the US for its actions and then say it is OK for Russia to do exactly the same without being an enormous hypocrite. Iraq is the US's responsibility because they broke it. Ukraine is Russia's responsibility because they broke it.

The damage Putin's foreign policy is doing to Russia's relations with the rest of Europe/US is enormous and ordinary Russians are going pay a very high price for it.
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Very true. At this point given events in Russia, its likely he will be pushed out of power at some point as Russian citizens grow tired of the continued rampant corruption and mafia governance that is cloaked by feel good foreign invasions.
 
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...tion-member-boris-nemtsov-shot-dead-in-moscow

“There is no doubt the crime was carefully planned, as well as the place chosen for the murder,” Vladimir Milov, a former deputy energy minister, wrote on his blog. “I have talked to my acquaintances who worked in special services, and I have less and less doubt that the killing of Boris Nemtsov is backed by the authorities.”
 
First Sochi, now the invasion of Ukraine. The more one reads the more it appears Nemtsov's recent work was at a minimum deeply embarrassing to Putin and at worst blatantly incriminating, which makes for a clear motive to have him taken out.

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Boris Nemtsov Exposed Putin's Corruption—And Paid With His Life

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...utin-s-corruption-and-paid-with-his-life.html

Murdered politician Boris Nemtsov was a fearless crusader who called out Putin's corruption in Sochi—and who was preparing a dossier on Ukraine.

The last time I saw Boris Nemtsov, in Tallinn, Estonia in 2013, he had wanted to find a way to tack on more Putin regime officials to a U.S. law that would ban them from entering the country or freeze whatever assets they held here. The former first deputy prime minister of Russia, who was brutally shot to death within eyeshot of the Kremlin this evening, had many enemies, not least of them the president of Russia. He was handsome, charismatic and popular in the West and in Eastern Europe. “First we liberate Belarus, and then Russia!” former Belarusian presidential candidate, dissident and Lukashenko torture victim Andrei Sannikov told him on that same occasion. Nemtsov joyfully agreed. On Sunday he had planned to lead a march against Vladimir Putin’s unacknowledged dirty war in Ukraine. He was shot repeatedly in the back by several assailants emerging from a car while he walking down the Moskvoretskiy bridge with Anna Durickaya, a Ukrainian model.

Two years ago, Nemtsov and his colleague Leonid Martynyuk released a report titled, “Winter Olympics in the Sub-Tropics: Corruption and Abuse in Sochi,” which alleged that Putin had personally overseen the enormous, profligate project and was therefore responsible for the estimated $26 billion frittered away in “embezzlement and kickbacks.” They named names. Nemtsov, who was born in Sochi, and Martynyuk debunked the myth peddled by the Kremlin that the bulk of the costs for the Olympics was borne by private investors, showing that actually only two—aluminum magnate Oleg Deripaska and nickel magnate Vladimir Potanin—were the private financiers of the world’s most expensive Winter Games.

Moreover, they showed how brothers Boris and Arkady Rotenberg, childhood friends of Putin, were awarded 15 percent of the money controlled by Olimpstroy, the state company created to finance the Olympics; and that the bulk of this percentage was spent in awarding no-bid sweetheart contracts. They also suggested that Vladimir Yakunin, the chairman of the state-owned Russian Railroads, who along with Putin helped found the St. Petersburg Ozero Dacha Cooperative, commanded 20 percent of the Olympstroy budget and then purchased property which, according to his official declared income, he simply could not afford.

“Putin is part of a mafia,” Nemtsov told me and my colleague Olga Khvostunova, in an interview about his report. “They do not turn in their own. He gave his friends an opportunity ‘to earn some cash.’”

The U.S. government agrees. Following Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, the Treasury Department has sanctioned the Rotenbergs and Yakunin for being cronies of Putin, and echoing much of the dollar amounts Nemtsov and Martynyuk disclosed in their well-trafficked corruption expose. Nemtsov, according to one of his close friends and comrades Ilya Yashin, was preparing a new document that purportedly established Russia’s military presence in Ukraine.

The head of Russia’s Investigative Committee—and a man who once threatened to behead a journalist in a forest—has ordered the investigation that Putin will oversee
The murder of a former government official in central Moscow would be disturbing enough without the characteristic creepiness that has attended this tragedy. LifeNews, which is clearly a Russian intelligence-run media arm, was one of the first outlets to confirm Nemtsov’s death and also to produce CCTV footage of the alleged car used by the perpetrators. This same clearinghouse of disinformation has also said it was either over the abortion of a love child by his "Ukrainian girlfriend" (which made a third party jealous) or over money from his "Ukrainian sponsors."

Furthermore, Putin, who is normally so reticent about high-profile killings in Russia that he rarely mentions the victims by name, wasted no time in announcing that he would be personally overseeing the investigation into this crime. His spokesman Dmitry Peskov told reporters that Nemtsov's assassination had “all the hallmarks of a contract job and bears an exclusively provocational character.” In other words, this was a conspiracy hatched by enemies of Putin designed to inculpate him. Thus does the impartial hunt for justice begin…

In December 1934, Bolshevik leader Sergei Kirov was assassinated at his office in the Smolny Institute, leading Joseph Stalin to say much the same about that crime. Kirov’s murder, in fact, ushered in a period of systematic persecution of opponents to Stalin’s reign—chiefly Trotskyists—known as the Great Purge. Sovietologists from Robert Conquest to Amy Knight have persuasively argued that Stalin personally ordered the assassination to justify a political dragnet. (One of the best anti-Stalinist novels ever written, The Case of Comrade Tulayev, by Victor Serge, was about the notorious frame-up.) This historical touchstone was not lost on Russia observers this evening.

Also worrying is the fact that Alexander Bastrykin, the head of Russia’s Investigative Committee—and a man who once threatened to behead a journalist in a forest—has ordered the investigation that Putin will oversee. According to Vadim Prokhorov, Nemtsov’s lawyer, “Several months ago, Boris was threatened by some thugs on social media. One of the thugs wrote to him directly: ‘Soon, I will take you out.’ However I do not believe that a person envisioning a murder would make such loud statements. We passed on the threatening statement to law enforcement, but there was no news since then. One thing is clear: no one from Boris Nemtsov’s circle or his colleagues can feel safe. I’m sure that this has a political motive, at that, the murder could have been committed by someone returning from conflict zone in south-eastern Ukraine.”
 
Raoul said:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...tion-member-boris-nemtsov-shot-dead-in-moscow

“There is no doubt the crime was carefully planned, as well as the place chosen for the murder,” Vladimir Milov, a former deputy energy minister, wrote on his blog. “I have talked to my acquaintances who worked in special services, and I have less and less doubt that the killing of Boris Nemtsov is backed by the authorities.”
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I find it hard to believe that you can honestly think Putin would be that stupid to do something like that. What, not even try make it look like an accident but kill him right in the open, a stonetrow away from Kremlin, and create a martyr a couple of days before the protest march? Have you abandoned all common sense?

And where is the evidence? Why do you persist in brainwashing people with your anti-Putin propaganda?
 
Mihajlovic said:
I find it hard to believe that you can honestly think Putin would be that stupid to do something like that. What, not even try make it look like an accident but kill him right in the open, a stonetrow away from Kremlin, and create a martyr a couple of days before the protest march? Have you abandoned all common sense?

And where is the evidence? Why do you persist in brainwashing people with your anti-Putin propaganda?
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The evidence is circumstantial and the motive is clearly there. Putin obviously wouldn't be dumb enough to be directly involved in a way that is traceable back to him, but could easily have approved it. The fact that he has theatrically taken charge of the investigation when he has barely paid attention to previous murders is also a bit conspicuous. Since when does the President of a country personally take charge of a murder investigation of an individual who was about to publish material exposing his role in the cover up of a war.
 
Don't Kill Bill said:
They can't sit back and watch it because they started it and are fighting in it. If you invade some ones country then they are going hate you for it. Putin has caused what was a political and internal matter to become an international crisis by driving tanks into a foreign country annexing part of it in a direct land grab not seen in Europe for fifty years. Saying Putin isn't a angel doesn't really cover it does it? All the death and hardship, fear and hatred, is all Russia's doing now. You can not condemn the US for its actions and then say it is OK for Russia to do exactly the same without being an enormous hypocrite. Iraq is the US's responsibility because they broke it. Ukraine is Russia's responsibility because they broke it.

The damage Putin's foreign policy is doing to Russia's relations with the rest of Europe/US is enormous and ordinary Russians are going pay a very high price for it.
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Lets call things by their names.
First of all, Poroshenko's government gained their power as a result of a government overthrow. The overthrown government was legitimate, elected. Next governmental elections were six month away, win the elections and you get the whole country, the cabinet of ministers under control. But no, lets remove the legitimate government. This is a FACT. Secondly, there were and still are plenty of rascist actions taking place under the new government. This is a FACT. Thirdly, Russia is not attacking Kiev, they are supporting the eastern part of the Ukraine this is a FACT. The Ukranian army are bombing civilian areas this is a FACT.Nobody is bombing Kiev and the western part of the country. The Ukranian government has cut the supply of natural gas, water,and any payments to the citizens of easter part of the country this is a FACT. The plane was hit by a missile, and there is no evidence that it was done by the rebels this is a FACT. Now lets compare this to Iraq. Shall I do the comparison?
 
Water Melon said:
Lets call things by their names.
First of all, Poroshenko's government gained their power as a result of a government overthrow. The overthrown government was legitimate, elected. Next governmental elections were six month away, win the elections and you get the whole country, the cabinet of ministers under control. But no, lets remove the legitimate government. This is a FACT. Secondly, there were and still are plenty of rascist actions taking place under the new government. This is a FACT. Thirdly, Russia is not attacking Kiev, they are supporting the eastern part of the Ukraine this is a FACT. The Ukranian army are bombing civilian areas this is a FACT.Nobody is bombing Kiev and the western part of the country. The Ukranian government has cut the supply of natural gas, water,and any payments to the citizens of easter part of the country this is a FACT. The plane was hit by a missile, and there is no evidence that it was done by the rebels this is a FACT. Now lets compare this to Iraq. Shall I do the comparison?
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A couple of important facts you left out. Russia invaded Ukrainian territory in Crimea (Putin subsequently admitted this) as well as in Donbass. Any Russian tanks/artillery/troops across the border is tantamount to an invasion, and more than a few Russian troops have been captured by Ukrainian forces - so by any honest/objective observation, its an invasion. Another fact is that Russia is attempting to charge Ukraine for gas to be distributed to areas controlled by Russian proxies (Donbass). Therefore the Ukrainian government shouldn't have to pay for it, as its basically a mafia racket to charge the Ukrainians for something then force them to distribute it in an area controlled by Putin puppets.
 
Water Melon said:
Lets call things by their names.
First of all, Poroshenko's government gained their power as a result of a government overthrow. The overthrown government was legitimate, elected. Next governmental elections were six month away, win the elections and you get the whole country, the cabinet of ministers under control. But no, lets remove the legitimate government. This is a FACT. Secondly, there were and still are plenty of rascist actions taking place under the new government. This is a FACT. Thirdly, Russia is not attacking Kiev, they are supporting the eastern part of the Ukraine this is a FACT. The Ukranian army are bombing civilian areas this is a FACT.Nobody is bombing Kiev and the western part of the country. The Ukranian government has cut the supply of natural gas, water,and any payments to the citizens of easter part of the country this is a FACT. The plane was hit by a missile, and there is no evidence that it was done by the rebels this is a FACT. Now lets compare this to Iraq. Shall I do the comparison?
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It is because the elections were six months away that Putin forced the trade agreement on the former president. That is why his govt fell. If you know the past history of Russian involvement in Ukraine then you can't blame the opposition for resisting Putin's move. In fact given what followed how can anyone be in any doubt that the Ukrainians were right to act as they did, Putin having since proved everything they suspected to be true.

I agree that as a measure to stop growing anti Russian feeling in Ukraine the invasion has back fired spectacularly.The invasion had and has nothing to do with racists in Ukraine and everything to do with Russian ambitions there.

I can't give Russia bonus points for not marching into Kiev, they have annexed part of Ukraine a country the borders of which Russia signed a treaty to guarantee.

So when Putin cuts off the gas to the whole country it's OK but when during a civil war the Ukrainians do so it's a terrible thing?

Russia has armed, is fighting with and has held up the insurgency.All the deaths there and all the suffering to come lie at Russia's door.
 
Don't Kill Bill said:
I agree that as a measure to stop growing anti Russian feeling in Ukraine the invasion has back fired spectacularly.The invasion had and has nothing to do with racists in Ukraine and everything to do with Russian ambitions there.
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Not just in Ukraine. This whole thing has damaged Russias relations with all of Europe and Americans now identify Russia as a major threat in a way they haven't in years. Russia has gone from an uncomfortable partner to a clear threat.
 
Raoul said:
The evidence is circumstantial and the motive is clearly there. Putin obviously wouldn't be dumb enough to be directly involved in a way that is traceable back to him, but could easily have approved it. The fact that he has theatrically taken charge of the investigation when he has barely paid attention to previous murders is also a bit conspicuous. Since when does the President of a country personally take charge of a murder investigation of an individual who was about to publish material exposing his role in the cover up of a war.
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I fail to see how there's actually any circumstantial evidence. I wonder what that case would look like. The motive isn't clear either as Nemcov wasn't considered a threat to Putin. Putin "could easily have approved it"? Putin also could easily have got nothing to do with it, why not consider that whilst we find out more? Putin taking charge of the investigation- not sure what's so surprising about this. Despite 20,000 yearly homicides Obama got all vocal about the Trayvon Martin shooting. It all depends on the circumstances, etc. Considering the war in Ukraine and the shitstorm of allegations coming his way I'm not surprised Putin want's to get to the bottom of this personally.
 
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Raoul said:
First Sochi, now the invasion of Ukraine. The more one reads the more it appears Nemtsov's recent work was at a minimum deeply embarrassing to Putin and at worst blatantly incriminating, which makes for a clear motive to have him taken out.
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Wait a minute, so Nemcov is putting together a report that will crush Putin but he takes no measures of precaution? Has Nemcov's apartment been stormed and his papers and his computer been stolen after he was shot? He didn't save and store his work anywhere and no one from his network has got it?
 
The Mitcher said:
Georgia started that war not Russia.
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Following a decade of Russia undermining Georgia in South Ossetia Abkhazia. Russia had worked to create problems within South Ossetia and Abkhazia by giving passports to the people there, funding their governments and "militaries," and controlling their governments. This only exacerbated the long-term problems between the ethnic groups. The Ossetians started kicking off and attacking Georgian police, government, etc. before Georgia responded with disproportionate force. Why had Russia been keen to stoke division within Georgia? The majority of Georgians don't want to be kept under Russia's boot heel and would like to join NATO. Russia can't have that so they have ensured that Georgia doesn't have the ability to enter NATO. It's exactly what they are doing in Ukraine by keeping Donbass in limbo.
 
Well said Kasperov. He has been spot on about Putin's Russia well before the Ukraine crisis.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/garry-kasparov-putins-culture-of-fear-and-death-1425249677

Putin’s Culture of Fear and Death
Boris Nemtsov threw his big body, big voice and big heart into the uphill battle to keep democracy alive in Russia.

Boris Nemtsov, my longtime friend and colleague in the Russian opposition, was murdered in the middle of Moscow on Friday night. Four bullets in the back ended his life in sight of the Kremlin, where he once worked as Boris Yeltsin ’s deputy prime minister. Photos showed a cleaning crew scrubbing his blood off the pavement within hours of the murder, so it is not difficult to imagine the quality of the investigation to come.

Vladimir Putin actually started, and ended, the inquiry while Boris’s body was still warm by calling the murder a “provocation,” the term of art for suggesting that the Russian president’s enemies are murdering one another to bring shame upon the shameless. He then brazenly sent his condolences to Boris’s mother, who had often warned her fearless son that his actions could get him killed in Putin’s Russia.

Hours after Boris’s death, news reports said that police were raiding his home and confiscating papers and computers. President Putin’s enemies are often victims and his victims are always suspects.

Boris was a passionate critic of Mr. Putin’s war in Ukraine and was finishing a report on the presence of Russian soldiers in the ravaged Donbas region, a matter that the Kremlin has spared no effort to cover up. But the question “Did Putin give the order?” rings as hollow today as when journalist Anna Politkovskaya was gunned down in 2006, the same year that Putin critic Alexander Litvinenko was poisoned in London—or when a Malaysia Airlines passenger jet was shot down over eastern Ukraine last year.

Certainly the arrogance of the assassins is a notable clue. They could have chosen many dark and out-of-the-way places along the same route Boris took but instead sent a message by selecting a prominent and heavily surveilled spot. Opposition leaders are always watched closely by Russia’s security services before public rallies—Boris had been planning a protest against the Ukraine war on Sunday—so how could these trained bloodhounds not notice that someone else was following him? Regardless of whether President Putin gave the order, there is no doubt that he is directly responsible for creating the conditions in which these outrages occur with such terrible frequency.

The early themes in Mr. Putin’s reign—restoring the national pride and structure that were lost with the fall of the Soviet Union—have been replaced with a toxic mix of nationalism, belligerence and hatred. By 2014 the increasingly depleted opposition movement, long treated with contempt and ridicule, had been rebranded in the Kremlin-dominated media as dangerous fifth columnists, or “national traitors,” in the vile language lifted directly from Nazi propaganda.

Mr. Putin openly shifted his support to the most repressive, reactionary and bloodthirsty elements in the regime. Among them are chief prosecutor Alexander Bastrykin, who last week declared that the Russian constitution was “standing in the way of protecting the state’s interests.” In this environment, blood becomes the coin of the realm, the way to show loyalty to the regime. This is what President Putin has wrought to keep his grip on power, a culture of death and fear that spans all 11 Russian time zones and is now being exported to eastern Ukraine.

Boris Nemtsov was a tireless fighter and one of the most skilled critics of the Putin government, a role that was by no means his only possible destiny. A successful mayor in Nizhny-Novgorod and a capable cabinet member and parliamentarian, he could have led a comfortable life in government as a token liberal voice of reform. But Boris was unqualified to work for the Putin regime. He had principles, you see, and could not bear to watch our country slide back into the totalitarian depths.

And so Boris launched his big body, big voice and big heart into the uphill battle to keep democracy alive in Russia. We worked together after he was kicked out of Parliament in 2004, and by 2007 we were close allies in the opposition movement. He was devoted to documenting the crimes and corruption of Mr. Putin and his cronies, hoping that they would one day face a justice that seemed further away all the time.

Boris and I began to quarrel after Mr. Putin returned as president in 2012. To me, the Putin return signaled the end of any realistic hopes for a peaceful political path to regime change. But Boris was always optimistic. He would tell me I was too rash, that “you have to live a long time to see change in Russia.” Now he will never see it.

We cannot know exactly what horror will come next, only that there will be another and another while President Putin remains in power. The only way his rule will end is if the Russian people and the elites understand that they have no future as long as he is there. Right now, no matter how they really feel about Mr. Putin and their lives, they see him as invincible and unmovable. They see him getting his way in Ukraine, taking territory and waging war. They see him talking tough and making deals with Angela Merkel and François Hollande. They see his enemies dead in the streets of Moscow.

Statements of condemnation and concern over the Nemtsov murder quickly poured forth from the same Western leaders who have done so much to appease the Kremlin in recent days, weeks and years. If these leaders truly wish to honor my fearless friend, they should declare their support for the many tens of thousands of marchers who turned Sunday’s protest rally into a funeral procession. Western leaders should declare in the strongest terms that Russia will be treated like the criminal rogue regime it is for as long as Mr. Putin is in power. Call off the sham negotiations. Sell weapons to Ukraine that will put an unbearable political price on Mr. Putin’s aggression. Tell Russian oligarchs, every one of them, that there is no place their money will be safe in the West as long as they serve the Putin regime.

The response so far hasn’t been encouraging. Given President Putin’s sordid record, calls from Western leaders for him to “administer justice” could almost be considered sarcastic. Western media inexplicably continue to air, unchallenged, statements by his cadre of propagandists. Many reports credulously cite Mr. Putin’s high approval rating at home, as if such a concept has any meaning in a police state. Meanwhile, the Russian media churn out preposterous and insulting conspiracy theories about the death of a man they had called an enemy of the state.

We may never know who killed Boris Nemtsov, but we do know that the sooner President Putin is gone, the better the chances are that the chaos and violence Boris feared can be avoided.
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Good work from VICE in exposing the lengths the Russian government is going to in covering up any involvement in Ukraine.





 
Raoul said:
You clearly haven't figured it out as you're still moaning about hypocrisy and other half thought out concepts. States like the US are driven by power and economics, which easily explains why double standards exist in terms of being cozy with one state whilst simultaneously being at odds with another state with comparable practices. See US policy with Cuba and China, or Saudi vs Iran.
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Aren't all states driven by power and economics? And shouldn't you be more upset with the US than with Russia, since the US are in business with the Saudis who are far more vicious than Russia?
 
Mihajlovic said:
Aren't all states driven by power and economics? And shouldn't you be more upset with the US than with Russia, since the US are in business with the Saudis who are far more vicious than Russia?
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I'd say most western states who have liberal democratic, capital driven markets are driven by varying combinations of power and economics, both of which are increasingly complementary of one another. The US more so a combination of both, whereas the Euro states lean more towards economic stability. In the case of Russia, Putin's interventionism on Europe's doorstep is viewed as a threat to both the power structure and economic stability of the region (for Europe), especially as Putin has been using energy as a tool of coercion. If Saudi Arabia were doing the same, rest assured there would be tremendous push back from the west.
 
adexkola said:
It undermines arguments from a moral standpoint. Basically, quit the righteous bullshit and tell us what's really going on re: Ukraine, Libya, et al.
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Yes and the moral standpoint is different from the hypocrisy view.
 
Raoul said:
I'd say most western states who have liberal democratic, capital driven markets are driven by varying combinations of power and economics, both of which are increasingly complementary of one another. The US more so a combination of both, whereas the Euro states lean more towards economic stability. In the case of Russia, Putin's interventionism on Europe's doorstep is viewed as a threat to both the power structure and economic stability of the region (for Europe), especially as Putin has been using energy as a tool of coercion. If Saudi Arabia were doing the same, rest assured there would be tremendous push back from the west.
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You say the US pursues a combination of both power and economics while Europe focuses more on economics. I am assuming you're placing Russia in the first category? Or do you view Russia's involvement in the Ukraine solely as asserting power? If all this is just a game that powerful states are playing, why not work together with Russia and share the spoils? Both get to keep their power status and expand their economies?
 
Mihajlovic said:
You say the US pursues a combination of both power and economics while Europe focuses more on economics. I am assuming you're placing Russia in the first category? Or do you view Russia's involvement in the Ukraine solely as asserting power? If all this is just a game that powerful states are playing, why not work together with Russia and share the spoils? Both get to keep their power status and expand their economies?
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For me its a all about Putin's need to stay in power by using the tools of ultranationalism and foreign conquest - so in Russia's case its mainly about power, or more specifically the power of one man, not an entire country. There are obviously 2nd tier economic ramifications of invading Ukraine; most notably having control over gas transit issues and developing Black Sea energy off the coast of Crimea. Those are merely bonuses though, the main issue is Putin's need to consolidate power at home because he can't leave office without fear of follow on prosecution, which is progressively making him more and more authoritarian.
 
Raoul said:
For me its a all about Putin's need to stay in power by using the tools of ultranationalism and foreign conquest - so in Russia's case its mainly about power, or more specifically the power of one man, not an entire country. There are obviously 2nd tier economic ramifications of invading Ukraine; most notably having control over gas transit issues and developing Black Sea energy off the coast of Crimea. Those are merely bonuses though, the main issue is Putin's need to consolidate power at home because he can't leave office without fear of follow on prosecution, which is progressively making him more and more authoritarian.
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But surely business is better to be conducted in a stable economy, rather than messing around with a post-war destroyed infrastructure, industry, labour market, etc? After all, Russia is partnering quite well with Germany (EU and NATO member). How's a destroyed Ukraine of any economic advantage to Russia? Could it be that the prospect of Ukraine becoming a NATO member (and thus an US vassal) was a step too far?
 
Mihajlovic said:
But surely business is better to be conducted in a stable economy, rather than messing around with a post-war destroyed infrastructure, industry, labour market, etc? After all, Russia is partnering quite well with Germany (EU and NATO member). How's a destroyed Ukraine of any economic advantage to Russia? Could it be that the prospect of Ukraine becoming a NATO member (and thus an US vassal) was a step too far?
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Not if the stability of European economics is perpetually threatened by one state that uses energy as a weapon. The only answer at that point is to put pressure on that state to stop it and hope they get a different government at some point that is less belligerent and more collaborative.
 
Raoul said:
Not if the stability of European economics is perpetually threatened by one state that uses energy as a weapon. The only answer at that point is to put pressure on that state to stop it and hope they get a different government at some point that is less belligerent and more collaborative.
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I don't see how the stability of EU economics was perpetually threatened by Russia. Why not argue that Russia was only 'pursuing their economic interests'? You perceive it as aggressive, but I don't think anyone in Germany, for example, viewed it that way. I think the language of threat and danger fits well into your narrative that you have constructed and that you keep on repeating (for the purpose of cementing your position of power), but I don't see how that was ever a part of the experience of other European nations. I don't remember Poland, Moldavia, and Slovakia crying out to the UN and begging for assistance fearing the invasion of the 'evil Russians'.
 
Mihajlovic said:
I don't see how the stability of EU economics was perpetually threatened by Russia. Why not argue that Russia was only 'pursuing their economic interests'? You perceive it as aggressive, but I don't think anyone in Germany, for example, viewed it that way. I think the language of threat and danger fits well into your narrative that you have constructed and that you keep on repeating (for the purpose of cementing your position of power), but I don't see how that was ever a part of the experience of other European nations. I don't remember Poland, Moldavia, and Slovakia crying out to the UN and begging for assistance fearing the invasion of the 'evil Russians'.
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If you want to argue Russia is acting in its economic interests, then the best way for Russia to do so would be to liberalize, reform its government and bring it inline with European norms, at which point European markets would open much wider, resulting in far greater GDP growth for the Russian economy rather than the contraction that is forecast this year. That is what European leaders originally thought they were getting when Putin rose to power - a tough, disciplined technocrat who would reform Russian governance, reduce corruption, and enhance its ability to do business with its biggest market (Europe). The fact that he has basically turned into a corrupt, mafia figure with nukes, who is now invading his neighbors is obviously the core issue of why there is conflict there in the first place. If Russia were proper Democratic with European norms it would be in much better economic shape and in fact European states would be coming to Russia's aid when oil plummeted last year instead of using the opportunity to ratchet up further sanctions.
 
Raoul said:
You clearly haven't figured it out as you're still moaning about hypocrisy and other half thought out concepts. States like the US are driven by power and economics, which easily explains why double standards exist in terms of being cozy with one state whilst simultaneously being at odds with another state with comparable practices. See US policy with Cuba and China, or Saudi vs Iran.
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Why do you keep moaning about Putin then? Russia wants to add Ukraine, then let them. After all, it's a super power, right? Putin is driven by power, and Russian economics have reasonably improved compared to the previous guy under Putin.
 
On February 28, a former member of the Party of Regions, Mikhail Chechetov, committed suicide by jumping from the window of his 17th floor apartment in Kyiv. Before ending his days, he left a note saying: “I am leaving. I think this will be better for everyone. A huge thank you to all of you for your support. Forgive me and understand me correctly. M. Chechetov.”

http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/03/05/the-suicide-of-mikhail-chechetov/
 
fishfingers15 said:
Why do you keep moaning about Putin then? Russia wants to add Ukraine, then let them. After all, it's a super power, right? Putin is driven by power, and Russian economics have reasonably improved compared to the previous guy under Putin.
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You're confusing moaning with a well thought out position as to why Putin's Russia is bad for Europe and ultimately bad for the global order. Perhaps you have something substantive to add to why he isn't ?

As for your second sentence, it's certainly not a superpower in economic terms, in fact it's roughly the ninth biggest economy in the world, about the size of Italy's. So as far we're talking about power, Russia is incredibly destabilized by a combination of the drop in oil prices and western sanctions, which by the way still have several steps to go.
 
fishfingers15 said:
Why do you keep moaning about Putin then? Russia wants to add Ukraine, then let them. After all, it's a super power, right? Putin is driven by power, and Russian economics have reasonably improved compared to the previous guy under Putin.
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What year is it? If it's after 1991, Russia is not a superpower. They're a major power with a huge arsenal of nuclear weapons.
 
Raoul said:
You're confusing moaning with a well thought out position as to why Putin's Russia is bad for Europe and ultimately bad for the global order. Perhaps you have something substantive to add to why he isn't ?

As for your second sentence, it's certainly not a superpower in economic terms, in fact it's roughly the ninth biggest economy in the world, about the size of Italy's. So as far we're talking about power, Russia is incredibly destabilized by a combination of the drop in oil prices and western sanctions, which by the way still have several steps to go.
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I don't know you as a person, but your posts in football forums are well thought out, but I think you are suffering from soft spots on certain topics. Each one of us have a blind spot on few areas (mine is Rafael and religion btw), but you do constantly shift the goal posts when it comes to Ukraine and Putin. Your standard response seems to be 'US meddling in other governments = for the greater good/that is how powerful state works, for their own advantage', 'Russia meddling in other groups = Totalitarian dictator in a power grab'.

I think it's a very glib view of looking at it, but I'm no means an expert in international relationships. US citizens get a rough ride, sometimes unwarranted when it comes to foreign countries and their rights nowadays, and I do think you are more balanced than many other posters who find every excuse under the sun for whatever done by US, but your posts sometimes reeks of myopia and tin foil hattery when it comes to Russia and Putin. IMHO.
 
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