Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

Ah yeah. I do understand the interest in the war. It’s more the knowledge of - and apparent fascination with - the best way to kill people that I find a bit icky. I feel the same when anyone waxes lyrical about various different guns.
You mean you didn’t get excited when you saw the video of the conscripted Russian blokes, who clearly couldn’t hold a gun straight, and pictured all the intricate ways they might be slaughtered?
 
If they are just going with big straight line trenches then that is suicidal. That's a tactic that was abandoned early in WW1. Just drop some Fuel Air explosive and watch it roll down the line.
All it would take is the Ukrainians to recruit one dragon and it would be all over as we saw when Daenerys Targaryen attacked the Lannister army on the Roseroad.
 
All it would take is the Ukrainians to recruit one dragon and it would be all over as we saw when Daenerys Targaryen attacked the Lannister army on the Roseroad.
Logistics and training required makes that totally unfeasible. They'd need to learn valyrian too
 
I don’t comment on military matters as I know nothing about that subject but there are two interesting factors about this war (at least from a Western perspective) which provoke such interest and heated comment:

1. It’s probably the first war fought amidst wall to wall social media coverage (with Ukraine particularly adept at using it to their advanatage).

2. It’s the first war for a long, long time which is not enshrouded in moral ambiguity - there is a clear good and bad side.
Moral ambiguity as in it was always olay for the west to bomb muslim countries and kill our civillians as long as it doesn't directly affect you.
 
Moral ambiguity as in it was always olay for the west to bomb muslim countries and kill our civillians as long as it doesn't directly affect you.

Not what I said but yes, wars in Europe (the first extended one since the early 90s and the first involving a major power since 1945) do have a greater impact on Europeans than wars elsewhere. I’m not going to defend Iraq but it wasn’t the west slaughtering civilians in Syria and It’s not the west killing “terrorists” in the Sahel. But I hear Putin and the Wagner Group have a big fan club in places like Syria and Mali.
 
Not what I said but yes, wars in Europe (the first extended one since the early 90s and the first involving a major power since 1945) do have a greater impact on Europeans than wars elsewhere. I’m not going to defend Iraq but it wasn’t the west slaughtering civilians in Syria and It’s not the west killing “terrorists” in the Sahel. But I hear Putin and the Wagner Group have a big fan club in places like Syria and Mali.
Oh yeah we love Putin, he only murdered thousands of us, it's totally not regime propaganda, goes to show how ignorant you are.
 
Oh yeah we love Putin, he only murdered thousands of us, it's totally not regime propaganda, goes to show how ignorant you are.

So what’s your point? You started out castigating the west for bombing muslim countries. You wanted the west to intervene or not? Libya intervention to kill dictator bad, Syria non-intervention around dictator bad? I get confused what we are supposed to do…
 
Moral ambiguity as in it was always olay for the west to bomb muslim countries and kill our civillians as long as it doesn't directly affect you.

Could people please clarify when saying these things? I keep looking and can't find a Republic of the West, and we certainly aren't talking about the East's invasion. Sorry but I'm a real nazi about that:angel:
 
So what’s your point? You started out castigating the west for bombing muslim countries. You wanted the west to intervene or not? Libya intervention to kill dictator bad, Syria non-intervention around dictator bad? I get confused what we are supposed to do…
You are putting words in my mouth, the only thing I'm saying that your words shows the lack of compassion some people have, of course it's only a minority of people who are actually like this and I'm calling you out personally as opposed to the "west", we dealt with the same person killing our people, ie Putin, as Ukraine, and it gets to me how different the tone has been as if our children are of lower quality than yours and they deserved to die, so feck your moral ambiguity, it never existed except in your head to justify your lack of empathy.
 
Could people please clarify when saying these things? I keep looking and can't find a Republic of the West, and we certainly aren't talking about the East's invasion. Sorry but I'm a real nazi about that:angel:
"What have the Euromans ever done for us?"

Whatever the result of this war is, bringing back Russia to something resembling of a West-friendly society is something that will take at least decades.

I hope we get good news from Kherson and/or Kreminna soon.

Oh I don't know, you seem to have a good grasp on the subject.
 
Oh I don't know, you seem to have a good grasp on the subject.

Apparently I don't, that's why I ask people to clarify. West-friendly could mean a lot of things, maybe you think of it as Bombing-friendly. But who is the West? Is Japan, South Korea and Australia the West?
 
Macron's comments didn't go down too well to international audiences, it seems.

 
But he said the same as Borell?
But Borell also clearly said that there would be a strong military response. Problem with Macron is that he always talks about what won't be done, but not what will be done, creating the impression of someone who is constantly showing fear and weakness. This only emboldens Putin to escalate.
 
But he said the same as Borell?
Well, not quite. Missing the vital part that you know, might escalate something, humiliate Putin or in any way, shape or form make him not look like the weakest leader the world has seen in a long long time. Guy just screams of fear, toothlessness and weakness which is not the message we should be sending right now.
 
Because in 2003 Lithuanian public was supporting NATO accession, while in 2008 Ukrainian public was against it. Finding primary sources from that period is a bit of a pain, since most links to press releases are dead, but this RAND testimony quotes a 75% support in Lithuania at the time and Wikipedia has a set of polls gauging the Ukrainian sentiment and it's never positive before 2014.
That’s interesting and a really good illustration of why this conflict has been so traumatic for Ukraine and Ukrainians. People looked equally East and West back then, if not more to the East. It has changed so much in the last decade, particularly in the younger generations.

I just consider the perception of how Russia is viewed through the Ukrainians I know and it is a complete sea change from pre-2014, to post-2014, to now. The Sochi Olympics were seen as exciting and an opportunity for Ukrainians, with the games making an unlikely visit to their part of the world, then Russia occupied Crimea and Donbas to make life never the same again.
 
That’s interesting and a really good illustration of why this conflict has been so traumatic for Ukraine and Ukrainians. People looked equally East and West back then, if not more to the East. It has changed so much in the last decade, particularly in the younger generations.

I just consider the perception of how Russia is viewed through the Ukrainians I know and it is a complete sea change from pre-2014, to post-2014, to now. The Sochi Olympics were seen as exciting and an opportunity for Ukrainians, with the games making an unlikely visit to their part of the world, then Russia occupied Crimea and Donbas to make life never the same again.
Joining NATO was unpopular until 2014, but even before 2014 (in fact at least since mid 00s) the majority was already rather in favor of EU vs some EU-like union with Russia. But of course it was more like 60-40 (and majority still wanted to maintain good relationship with Russia at the same time and had a generally positive view on Russia). Which became more like 80-20 after 2014 (with views on Russia becoming more negative) and almost 100-0 after 2022.

So It is important to understand that while in general friendly to Russia, Ukraine was already trending in the direction of EU long before 2014, just gradually - and with of course wide regional (and age) differences. Even Yanukovich had to run on pro-EU platform in 2010 since he had no chance to win otherwise. And when he made an u-turn to align with Russia against the wishes of the majority of the population, he lost power.

What is stunning is actually how little accurate intelligence on Ukraine reached the upper echelons of Russian power. There were lots of assumptions they made that even a casual observer of Ukraine with at least some degree of impartiality could immediately flag as completely wrong. Such as the assumption of the vast majority of population in all territories apart from the western Ukraine being more or less pro-russian and welcoming or not minding Russian rule, armed forces except a couple of "nationalistic batallions" not resisting/changing sides etc.

What is even more outrageous, is the fact that before the war there was a poll of ordinary Russians - and the majority even of Putin's supporters (!) correctly said that Ukraine would resist and that their population wouldn't be happy about the invasion of Russia. Just shows you how out-of-touch with reality Putin became.
 
Joining NATO was unpopular until 2014, but even before 2014 (in fact at least since mid 00s) the majority was already rather in favor of EU vs some EU-like union with Russia. But of course it was more like 60-40 (and majority still wanted to maintain good relationship with Russia at the same time and had a generally positive view on Russia). Which became more like 80-20 after 2014 (with views on Russia becoming more negative) and almost 100-0 after 2022.

So It is important to understand that while in general friendly to Russia, Ukraine was already trending in the direction of EU long before 2014, just gradually - and with of course wide regional (and age) differences. Even Yanukovich had to run on pro-EU platform in 2010 since he had no chance to win otherwise. And when he made an u-turn to align with Russia against the wishes of the majority of the population, he lost power.

What is stunning is actually how little accurate intelligence on Ukraine reached the upper echelons of Russian power. There were lots of assumptions they made that even a casual observer of Ukraine with at least some degree of impartiality could immediately flag as completely wrong. Such as the assumption of the vast majority of population in all territories apart from the western Ukraine being more or less pro-russian and welcoming or not minding Russian rule, armed forces except a couple of "nationalistic batallions" not resisting/changing sides etc.

What is even more outrageous, is the fact that before the war there was a poll of ordinary Russians - and the majority even of Putin's supporters (!) correctly said that Ukraine would resist and that their population wouldn't be happy about the invasion of Russia. Just shows you how out-of-touch with reality Putin became.
Yes, don't disagree with anything here.
 
Dont understand is why kidnap them. Surely they won't be used as child soldiers in the fight.
Their population is going to collapse, worse than most other developer nations. A healthy demographic would look like cables on a bridge, with the difference in the layers getting a bit greater as you go down. I can't find a picture that will let me load it.

The arrows point to the age group that will fill most of their armed forces.
Russia%20Demographics.jpg
 
Their population is going to collapse, worse than most other developer nations. A healthy demographic would look like cables on a bridge, with the difference in the layers getting a bit greater as you go down. I can't find a picture that will let me load it.

The arrows point to the age group that will fill most of their armed forces.
Russia%20Demographics.jpg

That's crazy. But I guess you expect the worst of humanity in a war like coming up with the ideas like comfort women or child soldiers.
 


A good reminder that Musk’s high profile offers to help are never altruistic.

That's crazy. But I guess you expect the worst of humanity in a war like coming up with the ideas like comfort women or child soldiers.
This is absolutely no better.
 
Musk is a prick, but then again that should have been obvious since day one. Suppose Ukraine have done well to get this far without him rug pulling them.

Is there an alternative to Starlink? What do NATO armies in the field use for communication - surely we have some slightly-not-as-good-as-our-elite comms to share with them, to mitigate the risk of it getting captured by Russia?

Can the US Gov requisition Starlink (I partly jest)?
 
Hell have us believe he’s just a prick but seems to me he’s fallen under Russian influence one way or another. All the signs are there. He’s a prime target for obvious reasons.
 
I thought the Pentagon was already paying like 5x the normal price for all this stuff.

An article came out months ago saying it was the US paying for Starlink but they asked Musk to take credit because they were more worried in those days about escalation.

So it seems to me he's just after PR points for bringing up his supposed generosity.
 
Wasn't it supposed to be repaired in days according to them right after it was struck?