Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

VorZakone said:
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This is going to be one of the unintended consequences of Russia’s invasion that emphasise what an atrocious decision it was. Ukraine has depended on the Russian arms industry for a couple of hundred years. And Russia has used that as leverage. Once Ukraine transfers to Western heavy armour and planes there’s no turning back.
 
NicolaSacco said:
Can anyone tell me, or link to an article, about much difference this is expected to make?
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In short:
The radar and weapons of the F-16 are far more advanced than those of the MiG-29, which allows its pilots to shoot enemy missiles, aircraft or ground targets with a much greater range and better precision.
Here you have a detailed comparison:
 
NicolaSacco said:
This is going to be one of the unintended consequences of Russia’s invasion that emphasise what an atrocious decision it was. Ukraine has depended on the Russian arms industry for a couple of hundred years. And Russia has used that as leverage. Once Ukraine transfers to Western heavy armour and planes there’s no turning back.
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Not to mention that Russian military hardware is suffering blow after blow to it's reputation. With the exception of some missiles/avionics/anti-aircraft systems, it's going to be hard for Russia to sell hardware to major players in the future unless some corruption is involved.
 
TheGame said:
Twat.

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Only a self-described "Socialist" can be this fecking moronic. I have no idea what it is about these kinds of people, but they just can't kick the "Russia was the home of Communism and is anti-west, so they must have some legitimacy" BS.

A fascist regime invades a neighbour and the "Socialist" is decrying the defence of said neighbour. Mind-boggling stuff.

Nothing scarier in the fight against Fascism than a "Socialist" that examines modern history and calls the anti-imperial defence of a nation a 'warmonger".
 
Ragnar123 said:
In short:
The radar and weapons of the F-16 are far better than of the MiG-29, which allows its pilots to shoot enemy missiles, aircraft or ground targets with a much greater range and better precision.
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The big difference is integration within the ground and air based radar information system. Since I doubt Ukr will get Awacs for themselves , it could probably be directly (and unofficially) integrated within the nato system. Which would be a game changer.
 
WPMUFC said:
Only a self-described "Socialist" can be this fecking moronic. I have no idea what it is about these kinds of people, but they just can't kick the "Russia was the home of Communism and is anti-west, so they must have some legitimacy" BS.

A fascist regime invades a neighbour and the "Socialist" is decrying the defence of said neighbour. Mind-boggling stuff.

Nothing scarier in the fight against Fascism than a "Socialist" that examines modern history and calls the anti-imperial defence of a nation a 'warmonger".
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Is it just done on purpose to discredited anything "socialist" I wonder? Like "stop oil" groups acting like complete lunatics, "anti-fascist" groups acting like violent mobs, etc.
 
Simbo said:
Is it just done on purpose to discredited anything "socialist" I wonder? Like "stop oil" groups acting like complete lunatics, "anti-fascist" groups acting like violent mobs, etc.
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Unfortunately when we reach for the "dumbass" analysis it's usually a cheap shot, so we look for deeper meaning. I think they are dumb as a bag of hammers. Their analysis of modern history is pathetic and liberalism has played into their dumb takes for close to a generation now with the stupid shit it has done. So when they see an actual fascist flexing their imperial muscle....it breaks their peanut brains. Probably even worse considering it's Russia, so they are even more mind-fecked.

I despair for the socialist thinkers/theorists that have to sit back and watch, as people like this get to push themselves as the faces of "anti-imperialism / Anti-war"
 
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WPMUFC said:
Only a self-described "Socialist" can be this fecking moronic. I have no idea what it is about these kinds of people, but they just can't kick the "Russia was the home of Communism and is anti-west, so they must have some legitimacy" BS.

A fascist regime invades a neighbour and the "Socialist" is decrying the defence of said neighbour. Mind-boggling stuff.

Nothing scarier in the fight against Fascism than a "Socialist" that examines modern history and calls the anti-imperial defence of a nation a 'warmonger".
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Craig Williamson is a well known nut and will buy any conspiracy flavoured nonsense doing the rounds. Odd that so many of the extreme left and extreme right seem to be susceptible to this weirdness.
 
Sir Matt said:


Looks like Russia tried to send a bunch of Kinzhal missles at the Patriot battery or batteries near Kyiv. Current score: Patriot Missiles 7 - Kinzhal 0.
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The main question is if Russian hyper-missiles are really shit, or Patriot really has the ability of shooting down proper hyper-missiles (which as far as I know, should be harder to defend than ICBM/SLBM)? I guess no one really knows, and Pentagon is feasting in this data.
 
Revan said:
The main question is if Russian hyper-missiles are really shit, or Patriot really has the ability of shooting down proper hyper-missiles (which as far as I know, should be harder to defend than ICBM/SLBM)? I guess no one really knows, and Pentagon is feasting in this data.
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Yes. Or rather, hyper-shit.
 
Revan said:
The main question is if Russian hyper-missiles are really shit, or Patriot really has the ability of shooting down proper hyper-missiles (which as far as I know, should be harder to defend than ICBM/SLBM)? I guess no one really knows, and Pentagon is feasting in this data.
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You are mistaken because a proper ICBM has more than twice the speed of a Kinzhal
 
I'm actually shocked the Patriots could do this. It was just a few years ago that some guy at Foreign Policy wrote an article questioning whether Patriots actually did shoot down all those Iraqi SCUDS in the 90s.

Raytheon, Lockheed Martin, and Boeing must be high fiving each other this week.
 
Raoul said:
I'm actually shocked the Patriots could do this. It was just a few years ago that some guy at Foreign Policy wrote an article questioning whether Patriots actually did shoot down all those Iraqi SCUDS in the 90s.

Raytheon, Lockheed Martin, and Boeing must be high fiving each other this week.
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Its really not certain what they are against. I think its extremely plausible that the Russians,as they always do, have dramatically overstated the capabilities of their system.
 
The Firestarter said:
Its really not certain what they are against. I think its extremely plausible that the Russians,as they always do, have dramatically overstated the capabilities of their system.
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They obviously have, but at the end of the day, a hypersonic is a hypersonic - unless of course Putin has been lying and his missiles can't actually achieve hypersonic speed, which is Mach 5 to Mach 10.
 
Raoul said:
They obviously have, but at the end of the day, a hypersonic is a hypersonic - unless of course Putin has been lying and his missiles can't actually achieve hypersonic speed, which is Mach 5 to Mach 10.
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Or rather, this particular missile. Also we don't know at what part of the flight profile the intercept happened. Maybe its before it reached its terminal velocity.
 
The Firestarter said:
Or rather, this particular missile. Also we don't know at what part of the flight profile the intercept happened. Maybe its before it reached its terminal velocity.
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That's possible, but its also possible the US has developed technologies to mitigate inbound hypersonics, which would in a way render them useless to superior air defenses.
 
Raoul said:
That's possible, but its also possible the US has developed technologies to mitigate inbound hypersonics, which would in a way render them useless to superior air defenses.
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Also true, but I very much doubt they'd be given to Ukraine right now and publicised.
 
The Firestarter said:
Also true, but I very much doubt they'd be given to Ukraine right now and publicised.
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It could be that the technology has been built into the latest version of the Patriot. After all, what good are they if there are missiles they can't defend against.
 
Raoul said:
It could be that the technology has been built into the latest version of the Patriot. After all, what good are they if there are missiles they can't defend against.
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They can't defend against icbms either but that doesn't mean they are useless against 98% of all other aerial threats.
 
RoyH1 said:
Not to mention that Russian military hardware is suffering blow after blow to it's reputation. With the exception of some missiles/avionics/anti-aircraft systems, it's going to be hard for Russia to sell hardware to major players in the future unless some corruption is involved.
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Yep, agreed. Russia has lost around a third of their ka-52 attack helicopters. By the time this war ends that could easily turn into two thirds. And most of them were lost to fairly basic western kit. How many buyers are going to spend £25m a pop on these badboys, when a javelin or a NLAW costing 30k can destroy it (and the pilot) in seconds.
 
Raoul said:
I'm actually shocked the Patriots could do this. It was just a few years ago that some guy at Foreign Policy wrote an article questioning whether Patriots actually did shoot down all those Iraqi SCUDS in the 90s.

Raytheon, Lockheed Martin, and Boeing must be high fiving each other this week.
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There's been credible reporting in the past that the Patriot batteries had a success rate in the twenties percentage wise...

https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/03/28/patriot-missiles-are-made-in-america-and-fail-everywhere/
 
Raoul said:
I'm actually shocked the Patriots could do this. It was just a few years ago that some guy at Foreign Policy wrote an article questioning whether Patriots actually did shoot down all those Iraqi SCUDS in the 90s.

Raytheon, Lockheed Martin, and Boeing must be high fiving each other this week.
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Probably the US is doing the anti-Apple: instead of just changing the name of each device and selling it as a new model, change significantly the model but don't change the name of the model.

More seriously, I assume that the Patriot battery system, despite based on decades-old technology, is nowadays much more advanced than in the nineties?
 
The Firestarter said:
They can't defend against icbms either but that doesn't mean they are useless against 98% of all other aerial threats.
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Yeah but in this case we're talking about relatively low altitude missiles that are launched geographically close to their intended targets, which is what Ukrainians (and their suppliers of military hardware) are set up to defend against. If the hypersonics had to go into Space to reach a target half way across the globe it would be a different story.
 
WPMUFC said:
Only a self-described "Socialist" can be this fecking moronic. I have no idea what it is about these kinds of people, but they just can't kick the "Russia was the home of Communism and is anti-west, so they must have some legitimacy" BS.

A fascist regime invades a neighbour and the "Socialist" is decrying the defence of said neighbour. Mind-boggling stuff.

Nothing scarier in the fight against Fascism than a "Socialist" that examines modern history and calls the anti-imperial defence of a nation a 'warmonger".
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In fairness the American extreme right wing also say similar stuff. I have no problem with socialism, it's entirely logical to me, but this guy is spouting crap that has nothing to do with it. Some people are so adamantly anti-American, anti-capitalist, that they will take any chance they can get to denigrate it.
 
NicolaSacco said:
Can anyone tell me, or link to an article, about much difference this is expected to make?
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They would be an upgrade on Ukraines current attack/fighter planes but wont be able to do anything game changing would be my short answer.

Compared to the SU-27 and the Mig-29 which the Ukrainian air force is currently using the F16 have a better radar that would allow them to use long range air to air misiles like the AIM-120 AMRAAM which are already being donated to Ukraine for use by the NASAMS ground based air defense system.
This would give them a better chance to go up against Russian MIG-31 and the various Sukhoi fighters who right now using their long range missiles and better radars can target the Ukrainian planes long before the Ukrainians are even able to see them on their radars. The Russian R-37 air to air missile still outranges any western missile but it would at least level the playingfield a bit.
It would also open up the possibility for more advanced ground attack munitions being donated like the AGM-154 glide bomb and the AGM-158 cruise missile.

On the other side is the fact that these are old airframes with a large radar cross section that the Russian radars, both ground based and airborne would be able to detect and engage at large distances.
Another thing to consider is that a F16 in the Ukrainian air force doesn't have the same capabilities compared to a US airforce one. When the US airforce fly these they are backed up by AWACS and electrical warfare planes neither of which are available to the Ukrainians.
 
goalscholes said:
Give it a page and someone will still call Macron Putin’s lackey/ lapdog.
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He is even afraid of Putin's fart and Putin preys on it. Until this day I still don't remember him saying Russia must lose this war. All he ever manages to say is, they must not win and Putin must not be humiliated. Maybe I'm wrong here and someone can give me a quote.
And I'm pretty sure that other countries initiated and pressured the needs of missiles and pilot training. Macron could have objected it of course, but that would've put him back on Putin's lap again.
 
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