Russia's at it again

JustAFan said:
I also noticed how in a few responses he went from saying Russia is democratic, to saying "so what there are others worse than us"
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There are few countries that have more democracy than Russia and a whole lot more that aren't. What's so difficult to understand?
 
Raoul said:
Note the usual "Whataboutism" in his response.
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The US posters bring up the "whataboutism' every time someone calls them out on their usual hypocritical bullshit. You should know since you do it more than anyone else here.
 
antihenry said:
The US posters bring up the "whataboutism' every time someone calls them out on their usual hypocritical bullshit. You should know since you do it more than anyone else here.
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Another obfuscation. Let's stick to the topic of Russia as a corrupt, gangster state that seems to be assassinating their own people every other day. If anything, you should welcome Navalny's anti-corruption measures as a way to expose your country's weakness and correct it.
 
Raoul said:
Another obfuscation. Let's stick to the topic of Russia as a corrupt, gangster state that seems to be assassinating their own people every other day. If anything, you should welcome Navalny's anti-corruption measures as a way to expose your country's weakness and correct it.
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Of course. Go forbid you should explain why in a cradle of democracy like the USA thousands of peaceful protesters are treated like criminals. Were it to happen in Russia on such a scale, I could only imagine the reaction from the usual Putin bashers here.
 
antihenry said:
There are few countries that have more democracy than Russia and a whole lot more that aren't. What's so difficult to understand?
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Every country in Europe (except Belarus) has more democracy than Russia. Same for North America as well as India and large parts of Latin America and APAC. Not sure what your point is. If Putin demands respect from Europe and the US, then surely those countries are the relevant conparisons rather than the likes of Zimbabwe and Algeria.
 
antihenry said:
Of course. Go forbid you should explain why in a cradle of democracy like the USA thousands of peaceful protesters are treated like criminals. Were it to happen in Russia on such a scale, I could only imagine the reaction from the usual Putin bashers here.
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That does get discussed in the US politics thread without people resorting to "SQUIRREL"
 
Silva said:
That does get discussed in the US politics thread without people resorting to "SQUIRREL"
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Got discussed in the thread about the Occupy Movement also I believe. In fact it was the early arrests on Wall Street that helped garner more mainstream media attention for the movement. Not that it makes the arrests right, but it points out how the arrests in situations like this can backfire.
 
Raoul said:
Another obfuscation. Let's stick to the topic of Russia as a corrupt, gangster state that seems to be assassinating their own people every other day. If anything, you should welcome Navalny's anti-corruption measures as a way to expose your country's weakness and correct it.
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Do you welcome the leaks exposing the corruption of your party and your government and make correcting it your priority?
 
Danny1982 said:
Do you welcome the leaks exposing the corruption of your party and your government and make correcting it your priority?
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These aren't leaks, they are for the most part investigative journalism by an anti-corruption advocate.
 
Raoul said:
These aren't leaks, they are for the most part investigative journalism by an anti-corruption advocate.
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1- So you're telling me Russia has better journalism that can investigate corruption than the US (where the journalists quite clearly failed to inform the public that some leaks were necessary)?

2- Most of the info we have about the US government actually came from American whistleblowers, not foreign hacks/leaks, which most people recognise, but still try to distract with propaganda about plots and conspiracies.

WikiLeaks CIA files: Former intelligence chief claims millennials leak secrets because of 'cultural differences'
The former director of the CIA has claimed millennials being employed by American security services are more likely to leak information because they are “culturally different” from their elders.

“In order to do this kind of stuff, we have to recruit from a certain demographic,” he told the BBC.

“I don’t mean to judge them at all but this group of Millennials and related groups simply have different understandings of the words loyalty, secrecy and transparency than certainly my generation did.

“So we bring these folks into the agency – good Americans, all, I assume – but culturally they have different instincts than the people who made the decision to hire them.

“We may be running into this different cultural approach that we saw with Chelsea Manning, with Edward Snowden and now, perhaps, with a third actor.”
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So how come Navalny is a hero, but Snowden and others are traitors who should go to jail? How come the Russians are idiots for putting loyalty and their national pride/interest ahead of these corruption reports, but the Americans would be idiots if they don't put loyalty ahead and sweep corruption under the carpet and keep supporting a corrupt establishment for some bigger national interest?

3- And above all, as a US citizen whose priority should be to "identify the weaknesses of his country and correct them", why do you even care where the information came from?
 
Danny1982 said:
1- So you're telling me Russia has better journalism that can investigate corruption than the US (where the journalists quite clearly failed to inform the public that some leaks were necessary)?

2- Most of the info we have about the US government actually came from American whistleblowers, not foreign hacks/leaks, which most people recognise, but still try to distract with propaganda about plots and conspiracies.

WikiLeaks CIA files: Former intelligence chief claims millennials leak secrets because of 'cultural differences'


So how come Navalny is a hero, but Snowden and others are traitors who should go to jail? How come the Russians are idiots for putting loyalty and their national pride/interest ahead of these corruption reports, but the Americans would be idiots if they don't put loyalty ahead and sweep corruption under the carpet and keep supporting a corrupt establishment for some bigger national interest?

3- And above all, as a US citizen whose priority should be to "identify the weaknesses of his country and correct them", why do you even care where the information came from?
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This is actual investigative journalism, not a fraudulent shell game where the so called journalist is an agent of an intelligence service of a foreign government, masquerading as a whistleblowing service.
 
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antihenry said:
So? Neither are most other countries in the world and quite a few are much worse in that respect than Russia. Yet it's Russia that gets demonized far more than any other.

As far as dealing with protests, Russian cops are no different to their US colleagues.

https://www.stpete4peace.org/occupyarrests
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Wel I was just responding to this...

antihenry said:
We're already democratic
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You seem to agree now so never mind. We can talk about other countries if you want, whatabout them?
 
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2- Most of the info we have about the US government actually came from American whistleblowers, not foreign hacks/leaks, which most people recognise, but still try to distract with propaganda about plots and conspiracies.
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Now that's rich...
 
Raoul said:
This is actual investigative journalism, not a fraudulent shell game where the so called journalist is an agent of an intelligence service of a foreign government, masquerading as a whistleblowing service.
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Regardless of what you think of him the only thing that should matter to you is whether he's telling the truth or not. Unless, of course, you have other priorities and agendas.
 
Raoul said:
This is actual investigative journalism, not a fraudulent shell game where the so called journalist is an agent of an intelligence service of a foreign government, masquerading as a whistleblowing service.
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Seems like an Ad hominem.
 
American media playing six degrees of Putin is apparently also investigative journalism. Someone should tell them about exponential growth. I have a few Russian friends, I bet if I did some research I could find a link between myself and Putin within three steps.
 
antihenry said:
Regardless of what you think of him the only thing that should matter to you is whether he's telling the truth or not. Unless, of course, you have other priorities and agendas.
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There is a difference between state secrets and the head of state's secrets though isn't there?

One is protected information to allow govt to operate, all surviving governments have them and hold them at least in theory for the benefit and on behalf of their people. What degree of openness is beneficial and what reckless is an interesting discussion as is policing those who hold those secrets to prevent abuse.

I can't see how putting the money you embezzled from the state you govern into your bank account and keeping the public from knowing falls into the same bracket. Imprisoning and killing journalists and anyone who finds out about your misdeeds likewise.
 
"Wouldn't it be great if we got along with Russia....."

 
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harms said:
Well, paraphrasing Navalny, Chechnya is not Russia.
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lol, did he say that ?

I'm surprised frankly that Kadyrov, who apparently tried to set up children's MMA fights, hasn't gone after LGBT people much earlier.
 
Raoul said:
lol, did he say that ?

I'm surprised frankly that Kadyrov, who apparently tried to set up children's MMA fights, hasn't gone after LGBT people much earlier.
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Yes, many times. He is a right wing politician after all - stop supporting and exclude Caucasian regions (and Chechnya in particular), introduce visas for Middle Asia etc.

Well, there were no active LGBT movement in Chechnya - gays either left the republic or were leading a "normal" heterosexual life, it's not like gays were living there openly and happily.

Some ridiculously smart LGBT activists from Moscow basically kicked the hornet's nest by asking to have an LGBT pride parade in Grozny (and no one planned to actually have one - they just needed the rejection to show it in courts and to the Western press). It obviously didn't go well - Moscow LGBT activists are safe and sound in Moscow, while the outburst in ultraconservative and vulnerably masculine Chechen society led to this horror, more than 100 arrested, at least 3 dead, ISIS stuff.
 
Organic Potatoes said:
Now that's rich...
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What?

Don't Kill Bill said:
There is a difference between state secrets and the head of state's secrets though isn't there?

One is protected information to allow govt to operate, all surviving governments have them and hold them at least in theory for the benefit and on behalf of their people. What degree of openness is beneficial and what reckless is an interesting discussion as is policing those who hold those secrets to prevent abuse.

I can't see how putting the money you embezzled from the state you govern into your bank account and keeping the public from knowing falls into the same bracket. Imprisoning and killing journalists and anyone who finds out about your misdeeds likewise.
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"Secrets". Is that your code word for it when it's about your corrupt politician? Clinton was receiving money as gifts from other governments, including Saudi Arabia, which is being sued by the families of the American people for its role in 9/11 (she's receiving millions of dollar from that government, and as a gift, not a loan), and then uses the charity money to pay for an expensive wedding for her daughter, while the head of the democratic party was busy rigging the elections of the democratic party and running a propaganda campaign not only against Sanders, but against his supporters as well (with the help of their media of course, including fake propaganda aimed at painting Sanders' supporters as violent...etc.), while the US government was invading every bit of privacy of not only foreign citizens, but their own allies (including governments and politicians, poor Merkel), and all US citizens as well (even their dick pics!)... And I only named (very very) few there... Want me to go on? "secrets" my a**.

Who knew moral superiority was that easy. Turns out you only need a new dictionary...

Corruption and misdeeds => State secrets!
"Investigative journalism" => Leaks/Hacks!
Invasion of privacy/humans rights => Cost of fighting terrorism!
Hero => Traitor!
The info is what matters => The source is what matters!

You keep nodding at each other, but believe me, nobody outside your small echo chamber buys this .....
 
No, Danny, I'm talking about state secrets like where do our nuke subs patrol, who are our intelligence assets, what does our ambassador really think about x or y situation. What are our remote surveillance capabilities?

Those are state secrets and they and the business of protecting them are fair enough by me within the context of a reasonable expectation of oversight.

Arresting and killing people who find out you are on the take or who criticise you. Then trying to pretend those are the same thing because you are the head of state and they are your secrets is what I'm differentiating them from.

It is not like you to miss the point and then go on a diatribe about the west at all, so I'm shocked to my core here.
 
Don't Kill Bill said:
No, Danny, I'm talking about state secrets like where do our nuke subs patrol, who are our intelligence assets, what does our ambassador really think about x or y situation. What are our remote surveillance capabilities?

Those are state secrets and they and the business of protecting them are fair enough by me within the context of a reasonable expectation of oversight.

Arresting and killing people who find out you are on the take or who criticise you. Then trying to pretend those are the same thing because you are the head of state and they are your secrets is what I'm differentiating them from.

It is not like you to miss the point and then go on a diatribe about the west at all, so I'm shocked to my core here.
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:lol:
 
Can anyone quickly summarize for me why Russia supports Assad so much? What's in it for them?
 
harms said:
Well, paraphrasing Navalny, Chechnya is not Russia.
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What's the strategic interest in keeping this unlovely gangsterish Islamic state to which Russia has to pay large amounts of Danegeld? Is it fear of the domino effect? Or an internal version of "he may be a bastard but he's our bastard"?
 
Arbitrium said:
Can anyone quickly summarize for me why Russia supports Assad so much? What's in it for them?
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Long story short, the Syrian regime, along with Iran remains one of the few remaining Russian allies and spheres of influence in a region which is pretty much under US hegemony. They have a large military base there too.

There's also the suggestion that the US's allies want to build a pipeline that goes through Syria which the regime have rejected.
 
MoskvaRed said:
What's the strategic interest in keeping this unlovely gangsterish Islamic state to which Russia has to pay large amounts of Danegeld? Is it fear of the domino effect? Or an internal version of "he may be a bastard but he's our bastard"?
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Depends on who you're asking? Navalny? Putin? Me?
The problem with Navalny is that he is a nationalist, and I personally don't like nationalistic ideas, even if they have economical and political reasons.
Why Putin keeps it? It's nice to have a state that supports you 99% (quite literally), and a ruler with absolute power that considers you his superior. And the empire's complex, obviously. And probably as a buffer between the Islamic world and "european" part of Russia.

A difficult question with hundreds of answers, really.
 
Russia escalates spy games after years of U.S. neglect

In the throes of the 2016 campaign, the FBI found itself with an escalating problem: Russian diplomats, whose travel was supposed to be tracked by the State Department, were going missing.

The diplomats, widely assumed to be intelligence operatives, would eventually turn up in odd places, often in middle-of-nowhere USA. One was found on a beach, nowhere near where he was supposed to be. In one particularly bizarre case, relayed by a U.S. intelligence official, another turned up wandering around in the middle of the desert. Interestingly, both seemed to be lingering where underground fiber-optic cables tend to run.

According to another U.S. intelligence official, “They find these guys driving around in circles in Kansas. It’s a pretty aggressive effort.”

It’s a trend that has led intelligence officials to conclude that the Kremlin is waging a quiet effort to map the United States’ telecommunications infrastructure, perhaps preparing for an opportunity to disrupt it.

“Half the time, they’re never confronted,” the official, who declined to be identified discussing intelligence matters, said of the incidents. “We assume they’re mapping our infrastructure.”

As the country — and Washington in particular — borders on near-obsession over whether affiliates of Donald Trump’s campaign colluded with the Kremlin to swing the 2016 presidential election, U.S. intelligence officials say Moscow’s espionage ground game is growing stronger and more brazen than ever.

It’s a problem that’s sparking increasing concern from the intelligence community, including the FBI. After neglecting the Russian threat for a decade, the U.S. was caught flat-footed by Moscow’s election operation. Now, officials are scrambling to figure out how to contain a sophisticated intelligence network that’s festered and strengthened at home after years’ worth of inattention.

“They’ve just got so many bodies,” the first intelligence official said of the Russians. “It’s not about what we know [is happening]. It’s about what we don’t know.”

It’s one of the most poorly kept secrets in the intelligence community: The Russian effort is a startlingly open and aggressive one, and often falls in a complex legal gray zone.

For example, the second official said, diplomats wandering around the desert might be in violation of certain travel requirements, but it’s not necessarily illegal.

Most U.S. intelligence officials can relay stories of run-ins with Russian intelligence operatives — often moonlighting as lobbyists, diplomats and businessmen — hanging around popular Washington happy hours. It’s an open assumption that they use Capitol Hill and its public office buildings as a farming ground for potential recruits. And the presumed agents aren’t hard to spot, according to officials: An oft-traded joke is to go to one of Washington’s handful of Russian restaurants and look for the guy in a tracksuit.

Lawmakers, frustrated by Russian diplomats’ repeated violation of travel rules, inserted a provision in last year’s intelligence authorization bill that would have required Russian diplomats to provide ample notice to the State Department if they planned to travel more than 50 miles from where they were based, and further, would have required the FBI to validate that travel. According to several sources involved in the discussions at that time, the administration fought desperately — and failed — to get those provisions taken out of the bill.

Around that same time, two key Democratic lawmakers informed the White House of plans to publicly finger Russia as the foreign power behind a widespread effort to manipulate the ongoing U.S. election — something no official U.S. government entity had yet done. Fearful of escalation, the administration tried to get Sen. Dianne Feinstein and Rep. Adam Schiff, then the two leading Democrats on the Senate and House intelligence committees, respectively, to back off. The California lawmakers didn’t, and they released the statement. Backed into a corner by Congress, the administration released a statement saying the same a week later.

The Obama administration’s tentativeness in the weeks leading up to Nov. 8 — especially in the high-stakes context of a presidential election — is something that still bewilders corners of the intelligence world. Some speculate that Secretary of State John Kerry, desperate for a peace deal in Syria, urged the White House to lie low. Some blame it on fear of igniting a cyberwar, and still others say it stemmed from a generalized underestimation of the Russian threat.

Underscoring all this is that the Kremlin shows none of the same reluctance at home, nor does it show any propensity to abide by the gentlemen's espionage rules that the U.S. tends to uphold, sometimes to the chagrin of its own spy corps.

“We can’t even leave the compound over there without being followed,” the first U.S. intelligence official said.

One well-publicized incident continues to agitate officials in Washington. In June of last year, a U.S. diplomat was returning to the embassy in Moscow when a guard with the FSB, the domestic Russian security service, exploded from his booth on the compound’s perimeter and assaulted him. A surveillance video shows the guard tackling the man and throwing him to the ground before the U.S. diplomat was able to drag himself inside the doors of the embassy to safety.

The U.S. diplomat, whom POLITICO confirmed was actually a CIA officer, had done the impossible — he had lost his tails as he maneuvered in Moscow. Infuriated, the Russians sent an FSB guard the man wouldn't recognize to wait outside the embassy for his inevitable return. The officer was beaten so badly he was immediately flown out of the country for urgent medical attention.

The account was confirmed by another person familiar with the incident.

Source: http://www.politico.com/story/2017/0...e-trump-239003
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So the CIA says they need more resources because the Russians are swarming. It may well be that spy games are escalating but anything that comes from the CIA propaganda machine should be taken with a wheelbarrow of salt.
 
Blodssvik said:
So the CIA says they need more resources because the Russians are swarming. It may well be that spy games are escalating but anything that comes from the CIA propaganda machine should be taken with a wheelbarrow of salt.
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Source ?
 
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