Russia's at it again

Raoul said:
Sounds like Putin is conducting a campaign to get his guys in Washington to drop Mitt Romney. CNN just reported Rex Tillerson, the CEO of Exxon and good pal of Putin, is now being considered as a leading candidate for Secretary of State (despite having zero governance experience).

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You better be careful. Those all powerful Russians may infiltrate the CAF and block your access to the site. Where would we get the truth about the demonic Putin and his Evil Empire then?
 
Raoul said:
You have to look at this from a Democracy v Authoritarianism perspective. Russia is pretty authoritarian whereas the West is Democratic. The US has programs that promote Democracy, media freedoms, gender equality, economic development, the rule of law, and student exchange programs (with the expectation that foreign students from poor or authoritarian states who study in the US will take their experience studying and living in a free society and promote Democratic norms when they return back home). These are pretty transparent programs that take place in most countries where the US has an embassy.

On the flip side, Putin's Russia, which is authoritarian, has banned most of these programs because they don't want their public clamoring for Democratic reforms or even attempt a Ukraine style revolution. Putin instead goes on attack by attempting to clandestinely undermine Democratic institutions in western countries through his own post-KGB style of information warfare:

1. Rampantly propagandist TV channels like RT masquerading as legitimate 24 hour international news channels, who exist solely to influence foreign audiences towards Putin's world view.

2. Social media troll farms in St. Petersburg where dozens of paid government trolls work 12 hour around the clock shifts in nondescript warehouses to respond to Twitter, Yahoo, YouTube, Facebook comments and rebut any anti-Putin narratives and undermine anti-Putin politicians (like Hillary for example).

3. An intense around the clock domestic propaganda campaign through state controlled web sites, tv channels, and radio stations, which includes legal provisions where companies doing internet business in Russia have to have their servers located on Russian soil (presumably so they are available for Government raids/shutdown if they don't tow the Putin line).

4. Using clandestine military units to procure hackers who attack western government and politician email accounts to embarrass Putin's opponents or promote right wing Putin friendly politicians by embarrassing their opponents (such as what just happened with Hillary).

So what you have is a battle for power between Democratic and Authoritarian systems and the Russians appear to be making tremendous progress in reestablishing a Soviet style capability to create a group of satellite states led by politicians who got into power with Putin's help for the sole purpose of neutralizing the ability of their respective states to challenge Putin's expansionism.
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Has it ever occured to you that your nonstop "promotion of western values" has done far more damage than good? What makes you think you know better how other countries/people should live? We can see the consequences of your actions all across the Middle East. If the US kept their "values" to themselves, a whole lot of people around the world would have been better off. Mentioning Ukraine, a failed corrupt state, is laughable. Even those Russians that have no love for Putin look at Ukraine as an example of how easy it is to destroy your own country with the little help from the friends from the West and their "values".
 
DenisIrwin said:
Western Europe was basically a back-water until the voyages of discovery and the dramatic rise in importance of naval power. Russia always struggled for warm water harbours during those centuries. That matters less now. Europe has had its days in the sun.
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Easy statement to make. You would probably get a round of applause in a first semester seminar in politics. But its also a rather stupid one. Way too broad and simplistic. And while yes, Russia had an disadvantage in the exploration of the world which ensured European dominance, its biggest problem was always its vastness, not the lack of a warm water harbour. During the late 18th century, Russia had the 4th biggest fleet in the world by the way. But it was alwas more occupied by tring to gouvern itself.
It's still the same today, when infrastructure is so important in bringing a country forward. Russia is at an even heaftier disadvantage at that front.
Expect nothing fom Russia. In fact, it might even get worse.
 
antihenry said:
Has it ever occured to you that your nonstop "promotion of western values" has done far more damage than good? What makes you think you know better how other countries/people should live? We can see the consequences of your actions all across the Middle East. If the US kept their "values" to themselves, a whole lot of people around the world would have been better off. Mentioning Ukraine, a failed corrupt state, is laughable. Even those Russians that have no love for Putin look at Ukraine as an example of how easy it is to destroy your own country with the little help from the friends from the West and their "values".
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And yet you don't actually do anything to argue against the point he's made. The Americans being dodgy on foreign policy does not mean we should sit back and allow Russia to do the same as they try to expand their influence into the West. Irrespective of what you think of Ukraine Putin annexed territory there and that is not fecking on. Now they've quite possibly installed a puppet in the White House.
 
Cheesy said:
And yet you don't actually do anything to argue against the point he's made. The Americans being dodgy on foreign policy does not mean we should sit back and allow Russia to do the same as they try to expand their influence into the West. Irrespective of what you think of Ukraine Putin annexed territory there and that is not fecking on. Now they've quite possibly installed a puppet in the White House.
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Interesting how you mention that Putin/Russia got installed a puppet in the white house when it was the citizens of 'Murica who voted him in.
 
Cheesy said:
And yet you don't actually do anything to argue against the point he's made. The Americans being dodgy on foreign policy does not mean we should sit back and allow Russia to do the same as they try to expand their influence into the West. Irrespective of what you think of Ukraine Putin annexed territory there and that is not fecking on. Now they've quite possibly installed a puppet in the White House.
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Russia has installed their puppet in the White House? Seriously?

Before going to sleep tonight don't forget to check under the bed, Putin may hide down there.
 
Unfortunately for the kids of Aleppo, it's not the monsters under the bed they need to worry about with Putin.
 
coolredwine said:
I am not a history, government, policy, international relations major, but humour me.
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The whole point of the thread is Russian intervention in those elections. Pointing out that is indeed an election in the first place doesn't advance the discussion in any form.
 
Ubik said:
Unfortunately for the kids of Aleppo, it's not the monsters under the bed they need to worry about with Putin.
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Yes, it's the real life monsters that took them hostage and use them as a human shield with a full support of the western propaganda and weaponry.
 
antihenry said:
Yes, it's the real life monsters that took them hostage and use them as a human shield with a full support of the western propaganda and weaponry.
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Well I'm glad you found this thread so you can be a good soldier and defend your leader.
 
antihenry said:
Russia has installed their puppet in the White House? Seriously?

Before going to sleep tonight don't forget to check under the bed, Putin may hide down there.
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:lol: nice one. It's them bad Russians. I think, soon the Russians will be blamed of crucifying Jesus Christ on the Red Square in Moscow. Russians become new scapegoats for all the evils in the world.
 
We're told to question everything that comes from Russia but if you question anything that comes from the american government you are a conspiracy theorist.
 
Blodssvik said:
We're told to question everything that comes from Russia but if you question anything that comes from the american government you are a conspiracy theorist.
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You can question anything you want, but be prepared to defend it.
 
We're back to a cold war scenario. That's a shame cause Europe has failed
 
fcbforever said:
Easy statement to make. You would probably get a round of applause in a first semester seminar in politics. But its also a rather stupid one. Way too broad and simplistic. And while yes, Russia had an disadvantage in the exploration of the world which ensured European dominance, its biggest problem was always its vastness, not the lack of a warm water harbour. During the late 18th century, Russia had the 4th biggest fleet in the world by the way. But it was alwas more occupied by tring to gouvern itself.
It's still the same today, when infrastructure is so important in bringing a country forward. Russia is at an even heaftier disadvantage at that front.
Expect nothing fom Russia. In fact, it might even get worse.
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Ironic that Russia takes its very name from the Vikings that once rowed down its rivers to sell slaves (often British) to the wealthy Muslims in and around Baghdad. Slavery (or serfdom) continued to be a big thing in Russia right up to the late 19th Century.
 
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antihenry said:
Russia has installed their puppet in the White House? Seriously?

Before going to sleep tonight don't forget to check under the bed, Putin may hide down there.
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Why is this such a ridiculous concept? Trump's plans conveniently line up with Russia in just about every way: his desire to weaken NATO, his admiration for Putin, and it looks like his secretary of state is going to be someone who has received the order of friendship from Russia and has business interests vested there. Trump himself has shown himself to be horrendously inept when it comes to diplomacy; Putin on the other hand is a shrewd, calculated figure who will manipulate Trump however he possibly can.

The news today just confirms it further: Wikileaks holding back on Trump info but releasing stuff related to Hilary, and the allegations that the Russians themselves had info on both but have held it back. If the latter is true then the Russians could be in a position where they have information on hand for blackmail.

Trump may not willfully be Putin's puppet because he's too fecking stupid to notice it, but it seems quite clear Putin's aware of how to manipulate him in his favour...and that's extremely worrying.
 
Dwazza said:
It's really not that difficult. Yes, you need firewalls, monitoring software etc but
quite possibly the most important element is knowledge. Right now, that's mostly limited to IT professionals and risk managers. Management and staff are often woefully under prepared for all not the avenues of attack that come their way. Email is probably the most popular way in for hackers and still staff open emails that are easily spotted and click on links that they shouldn't. A little training goes a long way here and it may be that this is where our largest gaps are in the cyber security stakes.

Dethroning Putin is pretty unlikely, I think a majority of Russians support his agenda of Russian aggrandizement.
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A security company doing a job for a major bank planted a few USB thumbs in the cafeteria and employees parking lot, the number of employees that plugged in the thumbs on the banks computers was high and they were able to hack their servers in the same day, now that bank doesn't use USB ports in their computers and everything is in the local cloud.
 
Cheesy said:
Why is this such a ridiculous concept? Trump's plans conveniently line up with Russia in just about every way: his desire to weaken NATO, his admiration for Putin, and it looks like his secretary of state is going to be someone who has received the order of friendship from Russia and has business interests vested there. Trump himself has shown himself to be horrendously inept when it comes to diplomacy; Putin on the other hand is a shrewd, calculated figure who will manipulate Trump however he possibly can.

The news today just confirms it further: Wikileaks holding back on Trump info but releasing stuff related to Hilary, and the allegations that the Russians themselves had info on both but have held it back. If the latter is true then the Russians could be in a position where they have information on hand for blackmail.

Trump may not willfully be Putin's puppet because he's too fecking stupid to notice it, but it seems quite clear Putin's aware of how to manipulate him in his favour...and that's extremely worrying.
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That's a very simplistic view. Even if Trump was Putin's puppet, and of course he isn't, he doesn't have an absolute power, there's a very complex system he has to deal with in order to get things done the way he wants to, and there are ways to keep him in check if his actions are detrimental to the country's interests. For example, the Senate may not confirm his candidate for the Secretary of State position. There's million of things he has to find compromise on and he'll have to make concessions.

The whole thing is ridiculous and just shows the fear of the western political elites in the face of change. Trump is an outsider in the world of politics, he ruined too many important people's plans for the next four years. They're so used to getting their way, when things don't go as planned, they get hysterical. Only a couple of years ago or so Obama called Russia a regional power and McCain said Russia was a "gas station masquerading as a country". Now suddenly the very same Russians are so influential, they decide who becomes the next US president. I bet Putin wishes he was half as powerful as the western MSM and politicians portray him to be. They're just scared of losing control.

Also, Trump won, among other things, because he appealed to the common people in the States and used populism quite well to make them think he'll concentrate on their problems rather than spend the country's resources on helping others. Most Americans couldn't give two shits about Putin, Russia or anything else that doesn't concern their everyday lives or is located outside of their neighborhood/city/state. To suggest that Russia could influence Americans' choice is not only stupid, ludicrous and unrealistic, it's disrespectful to the US voters.
 
antihenry said:
That's a very simplistic view. Even if Trump was Putin's puppet, and of course he isn't, he doesn't have an absolute power, there's a very complex system he has to deal with in order to get things done the way he wants to, and there are ways to keep him in check if his actions are detrimental to the country's interests. For example, the Senate may not confirm his candidate for the Secretary of State position. There's million of things he has to find compromise on and he'll have to make concessions.

The whole thing is ridiculous and just shows the fear of the western political elites in the face of change. Trump is an outsider in the world of politics, he ruined too many important people's plans for the next four years. They're so used to getting their way, when things don't go as planned, they get hysterical. Only a couple of years ago or so Obama called Russia a regional power and McCain said Russia was a "gas station masquerading as a country". Now suddenly the very same Russians are so influential, they decide who becomes the next US president. I bet Putin wishes he was half as powerful as the western MSM and politicians portray him to be. They're just scared of losing control.

Also, Trump won, among other things, because he appealed to the common people in the States and used populism quite well to make them think he'll concentrate on their problems rather than spend the country's resources on helping others. Most Americans couldn't give two shits about Putin, Russia or anything else that doesn't concern their everyday lives or is located outside of their neighborhood/city/state. To suggest that Russia could influence Americans' choice is not only stupid, ludicrous and unrealistic, it's disrespectful to the US voters.
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Well...yes, but this involves the senate and other Republicans actually having a spine of some sort, which is something they've demonstrably lacked so far to an almost incredible extent. If the RNC hacks are true then it's quite possible Putin has compromising information about several figures within the Republican party that is allowing him to exert influence: this is a definite possibility.

No one's arguing it was Russian interference alone which won Trump the Presidency (that would be ridiculous), but I think it's fair to say they did help: Wikileaks focus upon Clinton when they admit they held back info on Trump suggests there was likely Russian interference of some form, and the fact Trump's agenda suspiciously aligns with Putin's to an almost absurd extent is an indicator of where his loyalties lie. Again, I don't see why this is seen as at all controversial.

Russia may be partly limited in economic power to an extent but there's no doubt they still have a strong military presence, and when you add into that the fact they have a strong, authoritarian leadership who has no need to worry about challenges/dissenting voices from within, as well as the fact he's a shrewd political operator, then there's absolutely a need to see Russia as a threat.
 
Did people close to the Russian government hack the DNC and supply data to Wikileaks for publishing? Apparently so.
Did the endless drip of releases from Wikileaks about Clinton and her campaign keep negative stories about emails in the headlines for months on end? Yes.
Is this likely to have had a tangible effect on both voter choice and enthusiasm for both sides? Yes.

Maybe not so stupid, ludicrous and unrealistic after all.

To deny it had an effect is as dumb as saying it was the sole cause of Trump winning.
 
Cheesy said:
Well...yes, but this involves the senate and other Republicans actually having a spine of some sort, which is something they've demonstrably lacked so far to an almost incredible extent. If the RNC hacks are true then it's quite possible Putin has compromising information about several figures within the
Republican party that is allowing him to exert influence: this is a definite possibility.

No one's arguing it was Russian interference alone which won Trump the Presidency (that would be ridiculous), but I think it's fair to say they did help: Wikileaks focus upon Clinton when they admit they held back info on Trump suggests there was likely Russian interference of some form, and the fact Trump's agenda suspiciously aligns with Putin's to an almost absurd extent is an indicator of where his loyalties lie. Again, I don't see why this is seen as at all controversial.

Russia may be partly limited in economic power to an extent but there's no doubt they still have a strong military presence, and when you add into that the fact they have a strong, authoritarian leadership who has no need to worry about challenges/dissenting voices from within, as well as the fact he's a shrewd political operator, then there's absolutely a need to see Russia as a threat.
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He's not even a president yet. What do you know about his agenda? Let's wait and see what he actually does before drawing any conclusions.

And by the way, why is it that Americans are so afraid that their president will have a normal working relationship with Russia instead of the two countries antagonizing each other at every turn which is what was going on under the previous administration? Do Saudi Arabia, China or Israel have any influence on how the US foreign policy is conducted? I imagine they do to various degrees, and somehow that doesn't concern people anywhere near as much as the potential Russian interference. Why is that? So it's nothing to do with morality, which doesn't exist in politics anyway, or democracy or western values.

My take on it is that it's due to fear. Russia is the only country on the planet with nuclear capability to destroy the US. The american political class has a big problem with it and I'm sure on many an occasion they wish Russia would just disappear off the face of the Earth but those ex-commie bastards just refuse to go away. The central point to the US foreign policy doctrine, the way I see it, is to not allow any country to get strong enough to potentially pose a threat to the US world dominance. As long as you play by their rules, you can wipe your ass with human rights and civil freedoms and even invade other countries, like that whole Yemen affair. But God forbid you spoil their plans and suddenly, you're the new Hitler.
 
Ubik said:
Did people close to the Russian government hack the DNC and supply data to Wikileaks for publishing? Apparently so.
Did the endless drip of releases from Wikileaks about Clinton and her campaign keep negative stories about emails in the headlines for months on end? Yes.
Is this likely to have had a tangible effect on both voter choice and enthusiasm for both sides? Yes.

Maybe not so stupid, ludicrous and unrealistic after all.

To deny it had an effect is as dumb as saying it was the sole cause of Trump winning.
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Pretty much. Even if there were statistics which were to come out and show the leaks/Russian actions didn't actually impact the election results themselves, and domestic issues were what sealed it, this should still be a massive, massive concern, since it's pretty much guaranteed the US will have a Republican government who are actually okay with the idea of Russia being able to compromise their security for political power. That's...treasonous, really. At least to some extent, especially with the cronyism of McConnell being reluctant to leak info and then having his wife rewarded with a cushy role afterwards.

Granted, I'm probably coming across as more pro-US than I tend to be, and it's certain the US have taken it upon themselves to do similarly abhorrent actions (if not much worse) in other countries over the years to protect their own vested interests, but from an admittedly selfish, Westerner POV, the idea that Russia can influence foreign elections and get away with it, because certain parties involved are okay with this, and potentially in cahoots with them, is extremely worrying for democracy.
 
antihenry said:
He's not even a president yet. What do you know about his agenda? Let's wait and see what he actually does before drawing any conclusions.

And by the way, why is it that Americans are so afraid that their president will have a normal working relationship with Russia instead of the two countries antagonizing each other at every turn which is what was going on under the previous administration? Do Saudi Arabia, China or Israel have any influence on how the US foreign policy is conducted? I imagine they do to various degrees, and somehow that doesn't concern people anywhere near as much as the potential Russian interference. Why is that? So it's nothing to do with morality, which doesn't exist in politics anyway, or democracy or western values.

My take on it is that it's due to fear. Russia is the only country on the planet with the nuclear capability to destroy the US. The american political class has a big problem with it and I'm sure on many an occasion they wish Russia would just disappear off the face of the Earth but those ex-commie bastards just refuse to go away. The central point to the US foreign policy doctrine, the way I see it, is to not allow any country to get strong enough to potentially pose a threat to the US world dominance. As long as you play by their rules, you can wipe your ass with human rights and civil freedoms and even invade other countries, like that whole Yemen affair. But God forbid you spoil their plans and suddenly, you're the new Hitler.
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What do you mean by asking what we know about his agenda? We quite clearly know what it is based on his campaign...although it being an admittedly confusing and contradictory campaign.

And on the second bolded point, it's less about the normalisation of relationships and more about the fact that the US now has a literal fecking moron in charge who doesn't understand basic foreign policy or basic diplomacy. That should be worrying to Americans. Not just over Russia, but in dealing with savvy foreign powers in general. Putin is a shrewd, calculated operator who I'd imagine has little fondness for the US, and if he can see it destabilised under a Trump regime, or if he can see it pander towards him, then he'll jump at such opportunities irrespective of whether or not they benefit the US and the West. That should be worrying. The fact that Trump's likely Secretary of State has vested interests in oil in Russia should be a worry...because that's effectively someone who benefits more from a pro-Russian agenda than a pro-US one. Trump himself continues to demonstrate his lack of foreign policy knowledge by not bothering his arse to go to meetings...again, that's worrying, because he's potentially leaving it to his sidemen to deal with important info regarding Russia and other major countries.

And for the last part...I'm not going to argue that the US have used their force as a world power in a particularly negative and often outright evil and dictatorial manner as a sort of world policeman, but I'd ask you...would you rather live in a US-led world, or an authoritarian Russian-led one? Because for all the faults of the former, the latter, with its lack of tolerance towards democracy/any form of political dissenting, and by extension of that free speech and human rights, is a fairly scary thought. Again, some of what I've said applies to the US, but nowhere near to the same extent as Putin's Russia.
 
Cheesy said:
What do you mean by asking what we know about his agenda? We quite clearly know what it is based on his campaign...although it being an admittedly confusing and contradictory campaign.

And on the second bolded point, it's less about the normalisation of relationships and more about the fact that the US now has a literal fecking moron in charge who doesn't understand basic foreign policy or basic diplomacy. That should be worrying to Americans. Not just over Russia, but in dealing with savvy foreign powers in general. Putin is a shrewd, calculated operator who I'd imagine has little fondness for the US, and if he can see it destabilised under a Trump regime, or if he can see it pander towards him, then he'll jump at such opportunities irrespective of whether or not they benefit the US and the West. That should be worrying. The fact that Trump's likely Secretary of State has vested interests in oil in Russia should be a worry...because that's effectively someone who benefits more from a pro-Russian agenda than a pro-US one. Trump himself continues to demonstrate his lack of foreign policy knowledge by not bothering his arse to go to meetings...again, that's worrying, because he's potentially leaving it to his sidemen to deal with important info regarding Russia and other major countries.

And for the last part...I'm not going to argue that the US have used their force as a world power in a particularly negative and often outright evil and dictatorial manner as a sort of world policeman, but I'd ask you...would you rather live in a US-led world, or an authoritarian Russian-led one? Because for all the faults of the former, the latter, with its lack of tolerance towards democracy/any form of political dissenting, and by extension of that free speech and human rights, is a fairly scary thought. Again, some of what I've said applies to the US, but nowhere near to the same extent as Putin's Russia.
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What would change? I'd still be free to do my 60-70 hrs pw @ minimum wage, right?
 
DenisIrwin said:
What would change? I'd still be free to do my 60-70 hrs pw @ minimum wage, right?
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True for a lot of people admittedly...which is probably fueling a lot of the understandable discontent. You'd also be free to show strong dissent to a government though and exercise free speech...which a lot don't get to do in Russia.
 
Cheesy said:
What do you mean by asking what we know about his agenda? We quite clearly know what it is based on his campaign...although it being an admittedly confusing and contradictory campaign.

And on the second bolded point, it's less about the normalisation of relationships and more about the fact that the US now has a literal fecking moron in charge who doesn't understand basic foreign policy or basic diplomacy. That should be worrying to Americans. Not just over Russia, but in dealing with savvy foreign powers in general. Putin is a shrewd, calculated operator who I'd imagine has little fondness for the US, and if he can see it destabilised under a Trump regime, or if he can see it pander towards him, then he'll jump at such opportunities irrespective of whether or not they benefit the US and the West. That should be worrying. The fact that Trump's likely Secretary of State has vested interests in oil in Russia should be a worry...because that's effectively someone who benefits more from a pro-Russian agenda than a pro-US one. Trump himself continues to demonstrate his lack of foreign policy knowledge by not bothering his arse to go to meetings...again, that's worrying, because he's potentially leaving it to his sidemen to deal with important info regarding Russia and other major countries.

And for the last part...I'm not going to argue that the US have used their force as a world power in a particularly negative and often outright evil and dictatorial manner as a sort of world policeman, but I'd ask you...would you rather live in a US-led world, or an authoritarian Russian-led one? Because for all the faults of the former, the latter, with its lack of tolerance towards democracy/any form of political dissenting, and by extension of that free speech and human rights, is a fairly scary thought. Again, some of what I've said applies to the US, but nowhere near to the same extent as Putin's Russia.
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Quite often what a politician says in his election campaign and what he does once he gets in the office, are two very different things. Like I said, let's wait and see.

Putin hasn't always had a difficult relationship with the West. When he came to power he was seriously considering joining NATO and the EU. He was told in no uncertain terms that it was not going to happen. In the meantime, the NATO was getting closer and closer to the Russian border with every single year since the fall of Soviet Union and no one was willing to listen why it's not a good idea to surround Russia with NATO bases. If Americans were willing to respect Russa's interests, we wouldn't be where we are today. Instead they dismissed it as a non-factor and continued their expansion.

I don't think modern Russia is capable of dominating the world or even a large part of it like Soviet Union used to back in the day, due to the much weaker economy, they simply don't have the resources, so you can relax, you won't have to give up your Big Mac for a plate of borscht just yet. And the situation with civil rights and freedom of speech in Russia is nowhere near as bad as the western MSM are trying their best to demonstrate. Sure, it's gotten worse over the last few years, but it's still a whole lot better than the situation in China or Saudi Arabia, and somehow it doesn't prevent those countries from having strong ties with the US.
 
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I fear that the left is losing its way. first it's james comey, then the "fake news", and now it's those damned russians... if left continues to play the ad hominem game and blame anyone but themselves for their failure in this election and not seek to learn from the mistakes they made, they're only going to help trump win the reelection in 2020 barring a massive scandal.
 
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Winrar said:
I fear that the left is losing its way. first it's james comey, then the "fake news", and now it's those damned russians... if left continues to play the ad hominem game and blame anyone but themselves for their failure in this election and not seek to learn from the mistakes they made, they're only going to help trump win the reelection in 2020 barring a massive scandal.
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Not sure you understand the term ad hominem. The arguments are directed against what Comey and the Russians did, not who they are.
 
Mrs Smoker said:
Concrete evidence has not yet been presented to the public.
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It has been presented to representatives of the public by way of classified intelligence briefings. They may not be able to present information directly to the public because it would reveal how the information was collected and allow the Russians to change their communications.
 
Blodssvik said:
What is it then specifically that the russians have done and what are the evidence?
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I'm not sure, because it's been proven that during the election, Clinton's campaign were in bed with CNN and she was given the debate questions in advance via corruption.

So if Russia were 'meddling' by releasing that information and countless other examples... which is what seems to be being implied, I'm not sure people will see things in Clinton's favour.

I just think America needs to move on from the Clinton/Bush era, they're just crooks. And a big clean up is clearly needed throughout DC.

I'm not a Trump supporter, btw.
 
Rhyme Animal said:
I'm not sure, because it's been proven that during the election, Clinton's campaign were in bed with CNN and she was given the debate questions in advance via corruption.

So if Russia were 'meddling' by releasing that information and countless other examples... which is what seems to be being implied, I'm not sure people will see things in Clinton's favour.

I just think America needs to move on from the Clinton/Bush era, they're just crooks. And a big clean up is clearly needed throughout DC.

I'm not a Trump supporter, btw.
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No, she was supplied a couple of questions during the Democratic primary by Donna Brazile, who is a member of the DNC.
 
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