Russia's at it again

How does a nerve agent work then? And how do other people become effected?
 
Carl said:
How does a nerve agent work then? And how do other people become effected?
Click to expand...

Often times there is a residue, and I would imagine the agent has a sort of half life. So if you touch anything contaminated by the residue before it becomes inert (I'm talking out my ass here, this is just my impression), the nerve agent can penetrate the skin and do its nasty work.
 
Carl said:
How does a nerve agent work then? And how do other people become effected?
Click to expand...

It can be in a gas or embedded in something like an inert powder (sort of like Kim's cousin's assassination).
 
I'm struggling to think of what exactly us Brits are going to do as a response to this.

Putin can do whatever the feck he wants, kill whoever he wants and nobody will do anything at all to stop it.
 
K2K said:
How many more terms does Putin have?

I know he ran out of terms before and became 'prime minister'.

The world will be a better place without him.
Click to expand...

Let's face it, it really doesn't matter does it. He's de facto in charge regardless of his title.
 
matherto said:
I'm struggling to think of what exactly us Brits are going to do as a response to this.

Putin can do whatever the feck he wants, kill whoever he wants and nobody will do anything at all to stop it.
Click to expand...

It’s a depressing glimpse of Britain’s position in the world post-Brexit. Previously we could have gone to Brussels to seek a coordinated response. Now we are isolated and weak.
 
MoskvaRed said:
It’s a depressing glimpse of Britain’s position in the world post-Brexit. Previously we could have gone to Brussels to seek a coordinated response. Now we are isolated and weak.
Click to expand...

No we wouldn't.
 
MoskvaRed said:
It’s a depressing glimpse of Britain’s position in the world post-Brexit. Previously we could have gone to Brussels to seek a coordinated response. Now we are isolated and weak.
Click to expand...

Except it was no different when Litvinenko was murdered. As a former ambassador said on Newsnight last night none of our European neighbours wanted to know about any cordinated response and particularly the Germans who "you couldn't see for dust" running away from the idea.

This isn't something you can pin on Brexit.
 
K2K said:
Donald fears Putin.

Xi is less aggressive.
Click to expand...
I don't think 'fears' is the right word to use there. He likes Putin insofar as Putin is useful to himself, just like he views anyone else.

And you don't get to be dictator of China by being a passive bystander .
 
Barca84 said:
Except it was no different when Litvinenko was murdered. As a former ambassador said on Newsnight last night none of our European neighbours wanted to know about any cordinated response and particularly the Germans who "you couldn't see for dust" running away from the idea.

This isn't something you can pin on Brexit.
Click to expand...

Europe’s attitude to Russia has changed dramatically since the Litvinenko murder in 2006, the time when Germany was still the land of the Putinversteher.
 
MoskvaRed said:
Europe’s attitude to Russia has changed dramatically since the Litvinenko murder in 2006, the time when Germany was still the land of the Putinversteher.
Click to expand...

Germany's stance may have but it's simply false to claim this of Europe as a whole. In fact Russia has many clear friends at the table such as Italy, Austria, Greece et al Elsewhere the likes of Spain and Portugal, to name just two members, rely heavily on Russian investment in real estate and tourism for example. There are complex geopolitical dynamics and economic interests at work whatever the public EU front is on sanctions.

I'd agree that working within the EU may help form a response but think it just as likely, and in the EU's interests, to work as closely with non member states when a matter such as this arises.
 
Organic Potatoes said:
I don't think 'fears' is the right word to use there. He likes Putin insofar as Putin is useful to himself, just like he views anyone else.

And you don't get to be dictator of China by being a passive bystander .
Click to expand...
I think Putin has dirt on him. Its not a like relationship. Donald is a very comprised individual, and continues to sink himself with his subsequent behaviour.

As for Xi, I am not saying he is a passive bystander. But China do pull a lot of strings, its just not as blatant. Their actions seem more calculated and nuanced.
 
Barca84 said:
Germany's stance may have but it's simply false to claim this of Europe as a whole. In fact Russia has many clear friends at the table such as Italy, Austria, Greece et al Elsewhere the likes of Spain and Portugal, to name just two members, rely heavily on Russian investment in real estate and tourism for example. There are complex geopolitical dynamics and economic interests at work whatever the public EU front is on sanctions.

I'd agree that working within the EU may help form a response but think it just as likely, and in the EU's interests, to work as closely with non member states when a matter such as this arises.
Click to expand...

To look at the question from another angle, do you think Putin/Russian state security apparatus would order such a hit in Germany or France? Not necessarily the fact of killing a former double-agent, more the callous and brazen way in which it was done with no concern for the safety of others and with a nerve gas which presumably can be traced to a limited number of sources. To me, this looks like a deliberate slap in the face for a country which yaps a lot (see Boris Johnson in Moscow) but is currently too distracted and weak to do much in response.
 
We’re probably a fair way off from solving the complexities of this nerve agent attack, in terms of who was responsible and what their motivation was, but even so I doubt that whoever was responsible would have any qualms about carrying out a similar attack in France, Germany or elsewhere in the world.

They will get rid of who they want, when they want if it suits their agenda. It’s hardly a slap in the face to the UK or Boris. It’s not really done anything to the UK.

It is possible that this ex Russian agent has been “active” lately in ways we know nothing about....yet.
 
K2K said:
Donald fears Putin.

Xi is less aggressive.
Click to expand...

Xi plotted his way to absolute control of the party on a level which no-on since Mao has enjoyed; he did this by eliminating loyalists of the past presidents from every branch of the party/govt and installing his own people. He is ruthless.
Side note: this is similar to how Stalin, at one point known as a low-key organisation/behind-the-scenes type, became unchallenged in his party and had the power to kill almost every celebrated hero of 1917.
 
Red Defence said:
We’re probably a fair way off from solving the complexities of this nerve agent attack, in terms of who was responsible and what their motivation was, but even so I doubt that whoever was responsible would have any qualms about carrying out a similar attack in France, Germany or elsewhere in the world.

They will get rid of who they want, when they want if it suits their agenda. It’s hardly a slap in the face to the UK or Boris. It’s not really done anything to the UK.

It is possible that this ex Russian agent has been “active” lately in ways we know nothing about....yet.
Click to expand...

Except from all the people affected.
 
Red Defence said:
Sure..but they were probably only interested in affecting the two main targets. This was a targeted attack after all and these are usually personal.
Click to expand...

Irrespective of whether they were after one individual or not being able to attack foreign citizens in the process with no repercussions is a pretty worrying thought. What's to deter them from doing this again, and being even more brazen next time? I'd expect any government to stand up to such activity.
 
It sounds very sloppy. I'm sure I was reading declassified CIA files from the 60's or whatever where USSR had really ingenious ways to kill people.

Injuring around 25 people whilst attempting to murder two just sounds like a bit too much collateral damage for FSB.

Edit: why the nerve agents and polonium etc?
Just shoot them and exfil. Not that I condone that type of behaviour.
 
Cheesy said:
Irrespective of whether they were after one individual or not being able to attack foreign citizens in the process with no repercussions is a pretty worrying thought. What's to deter them from doing this again, and being even more brazen next time? I'd expect any government to stand up to such activity.
Click to expand...
I agree but there’s not much anyone can do really. Proving who did it will be difficult enough but preventing it from happening again is impossible. We maybe able to prove (for example) that a Russian person was highly likely to have been responsible but we’d never be able to prove that the Russian government authorised the hit. I’m not certain but I don’t think any of these so-called spy murders have ever been proved to show government authorisation anywhere in the world.
 
Red Defence said:
I agree but there’s not much anyone can do really. Proving who did it will be difficult enough but preventing it from happening again is impossible. We maybe able to prove (for example) that a Russian person was highly likely to have been responsible but we’d never be able to prove that the Russian government authorised the hit. I’m not certain but I don’t think any of these so-called spy murders have ever been proved to show government authorisation anywhere in the world.
Click to expand...


It could conceivably be some FSB agent who's still in the ranks, who got fecked over by that guy. He may just have a grudge. He may be a real hard nosed patriot type like Zhirinovsky who wants every traitor dead.
I don't see the sense for Purin to order such a brazen hit in this current politcal climate.
 
Though, the rhetoric from Russian media is: 'you live by the sword you die by the sword' etc.

Truth be told - I don't like traitors. I'm sure no one does, but if you exchange intelligence agents, then as far as I'm concerned theyre out of the game.
 
MaxiPaxi said:
Though, the rhetoric from Russian media is: 'you live by the sword you die by the sword' etc.

Truth be told - I don't like traitors. I'm sure no one does, but if you exchange intelligence agents, then as far as I'm concerned theyre out of the game.
Click to expand...

Do you think patriotism should always come ahead of judgement?
 
Pexbo said:
Do you think patriotism should always come ahead of judgement?
Click to expand...

No. Absolutely not.

That's why it's hard to think that Putin directly ordered the hit. Whatever are his faults his judegemt is second to none.

Edit: I do think that treachery should have serious consequences.
 
MaxiPaxi said:
It sounds very sloppy. I'm sure I was reading declassified CIA files from the 60's or whatever where USSR had really ingenious ways to kill people.

Injuring around 25 people whilst attempting to murder two just sounds like a bit too much collateral damage for FSB.

Edit: why the nerve agents and polonium etc?
Just shoot them and exfil. Not that I condone that type of behaviour.
Click to expand...
I often think that bullet-in-the-head hits are just cold, clinical, professional jobs. The feeling of “job done” is satisfaction enough to the hitman and the less press attention it gets the better. The hitman then just coldly, calmly and quietly moves on to the next job.

When they resort to more elaborate means than bullets etc then these to me are more personal and vindictive types of hits. The resulting media coverage from these is far more intense and gives the hitman a greater feeling of power, satisfaction and revenge which he needs. The longer the furore goes on the better they feel. It not so much a professional job as a personal job.
 
Red Defence said:
I often think that bullet-in-the-head hits are just cold, clinical, professional jobs. The feeling of “job done” is satisfaction enough to the hitman and the less press attention it gets the better. The hitman then just coldly, calmly and quietly moves on to the next job.

When they resort to more elaborate means than bullets etc then these to me are more personal and vindictive types of hits. The resulting media coverage from these is far more intense and gives the hitman a greater feeling of power, satisfaction and revenge which he needs. The longer the furore goes on the better they feel. It not so much a professional job as a personal job.
Click to expand...

I know very little about how intelligence agencies operate. And absolutely nothing about how 'wet work' opetates.

Logically speaking it would be prudent just to break in and kill him in his sleep. I am sure the guys that did this have been following him for weeks if not months. They'd know his daily routine etc. They obviously knew where he lived. I mean, I could have just watched too much Bourne/Homeland/James Bond etc but I'm pretty sure there are people who can do that.

As for feeling of power for the hitman. The whole idea is to be covert. Unless of course one wants attention. But then ask yourself a question why would a clandestine operation would want so much attention? It's either 1)FSB have severly declined, (Which I doubt considering Putin was a Colonel in KGB and I'm sure he would want them operating at a very high level) 2) It's done by some feckwit that didn't know what they were doing.
 
MaxiPaxi said:
I know very little about how intelligence agencies operate. And absolutely nothing about how 'wet work' opetates.

Logically speaking it would be prudent just to break in and kill him in his sleep. I am sure the guys that did this have been following him for weeks if not months. They'd know his daily routine etc. They obviously knew where he lived. I mean, I could have just watched too much Bourne/Homeland/James Bond etc but I'm pretty sure there are people who can do that.

As for feeling of power for the hitman. The whole idea is to be covert. Unless of course one wants attention. But then ask yourself a question why would a clandestine operation would want so much attention? It's either 1)FSB have severly declined, (Which I doubt considering Putin was a Colonel in KGB and I'm sure he would want them operating at a very high level) 2) It's done by some feckwit that didn't know what they were doing.
Click to expand...
I was more meaning that it was personal for the person who organised the hit rather than the actual hitman. However I do feel the hit itself was reasonably covert, well as much as a hit in the open can be.

Interestingly Sky’s crime correspondent said he had been out to the Russian’s house and it would have been quite difficult for someone to get to him there, because of it’s location and relationship to the surrounding properties. Even watching his movements from a car or such would have been virtually impossible without bringing attention to themselves. Maybe that’s why he was hit in a public space.
 
Raoul said:
Hard to say until we learn more. Looks very odd though.
Click to expand...

Do you think it came from Putin though?

I find it hard to imagime. I'm pretty sure id try to detract all the attention from Russia at this point and time. Also, the fact that Litvinenko assination still hangs over Russia to this day - it would really be brazen and daft.. I don't think Putin is reckless like that. Certainly doesn't fit the criteria of a KGB Colonel.
 
Red Defence said:
I was more meaning that it was personal for the person who organised the hit rather than the actual hitman. However I do feel the hit itself was reasonably covert, well as much as a hit in the open can be.

Interestingly Sky’s crime correspondent said he had been out to the Russian’s house and it would have been quite difficult for someone to get to him there, because of it’s location and relationship to the surrounding properties. Even watching his movements from a car or such would have been virtually impossible without bringing attention to themselves. Maybe that’s why he was hit in a public space.
Click to expand...

It's probably reasonable to say whoever attempted assassinate the guy probably never knew him personally. Also, it would be imperative to keep this as quiet as possible. If it wasn't Putin but a rouge FSB agent then God help them if Putin gets to the bottom of this. I'm sure he doesn't want such high international scrutiny.
 
matherto said:
Wouldn't put it past them.
Click to expand...

Well that's just daft. There has been plenty of double agents. In fact a lot of USSR KGB agents who defected to the west. I think most of them we're OK.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.