SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

I dont know, please elaborate on what a lockdown entails on a universal scale

Taiwan, South Korea, Vietnam = no lockdown

A much more accurate statement that @Wibble should consider, would be:

“The countries that have the lowest rates are the countries that allowed the least amount of virus to come in between January and March 2020”,

Whether that be through pure luck (I consider any country making responses in March as “lucky”) that not much had come in before the World saw what had escaped to Italy, or through good policy like Taiwan, South Korea and Vietnam that had learned their lessons from the outbreak in 2003.

 

[DFreshKing]

Deaths are part of life, no-one is “accepting” anything.
After bigging up the Aussie response only to end up with this Victoria situation regardless should have taught you a bit about the inevitability of it all. There’s no guarantee that longer, harder lockdowns would have done anything in the long run other than cripple economies, cause mental health issues, prevented millions in poor countries getting foods or vaccines etc.
It came from one market & swept over the World in months, it got back into NZ and no-one knows how the feck it managed it.

Stop talking like there was a simple one-stop solution to this.

I'd also add the cancer ticking time bomb and other severe medical conditions which will suffer long-term. Lockdown means more than just people not socialising etc.

 

[DFreshKing]

Not at the cost of turning countries into Venezuela, which is what you appear to be advocating.
Explain to me how you expected countries with already struggling economies like Italy and Spain to shut down earlier, harder, longer?

Your entire outlook on this seems to be “hide away until science gets us out of the shit”, with no thoughts on the damage you will do to the rest of society. That’s why you’ve convinced yourself that an effective vaccine is imminent. What if a vaccine isn’t ready until Jan 2022?
Do you realise how many lives could be ruined be a great depression and the inevitable hyper inflation? Do you realise the gap in inequality?
Do you think Venezuela seems a cool place to live right now?

Have you seen the studies by UNICEF of the damage that has already been done to school children, especially the poorer ones?

And you’d risk all of this with no guarantee that the virus won’t be back with a vengeance anyhow, just like it did in Victoria.

It’s like you’ve learned absolutely nothing since March, despite everything that has happened. Lockdowns cause a great deal of harm, anyone with a slight understanding of economics knew they were only a very short term nuclear option to get cases down. And even eradicating the virus and keeping strict borders (impossible in Europe for example, the US too between states) as shown in NZ, gives you absolutely no guarantees.

I shouldn’t need to mention that Germany’s great depression eventually cost almost 100 million lives, but I can give you just one very real example of what a ruined economy can do in current times... Venezuela’s plunge into an economic crisis and the collapse of its health care system appear to have taken a toll on newborns. The country’s infant mortality rate has increased by 40% since 2008.

So forgive me Wibs, when I don’t agree that the only thing that matters for the foreseeable future is keeping Covid-19 deaths down. I’d have thought by now most people would/should have come around to this realisation. Countries have locked down way harder than Australia to still end up with plenty of deaths.

The moral and responsible thing to do is to try minimise death and harm through a balanced approach that considers the health and well-being of ALL of society.

Excellent post.

 

[Stanley Road]

Taiwan, South Korea = no lockdown

Thats not describing anything im afraid

 

[Stanley Road]

Taiwan hardly had 'no measurements' in place, call it no Lockdown if it makes you feel better.

The Journal of the American Medical Association says Taiwan engaged in 124 discrete action items to prevent the spread of the disease, including early screening of flights from Mainland China and the tracking of individual cases.[11][5]

Taiwan's handling of the outbreak has received international praise for its effectiveness in quarantining people.[12][4] As of 17 August, 168,216 tests had been conducted in Taiwan, with the vast majority not confirming a COVID-19 diagnosis.[1]

Starting 19 March, foreign nationals were barred from entering Taiwan, with some exceptions, such as those carrying out the term of a business contract, holding valid Alien Resident Certificates

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

I dont know, please elaborate on what a lockdown entails on a universal scale

Taiwan hardly had 'no measurements' in place, call it no Lockdown if it makes you feel better.

The Journal of the American Medical Association says Taiwan engaged in 124 discrete action items to prevent the spread of the disease, including early screening of flights from Mainland China and the tracking of individual cases.[11][5]

Taiwan's handling of the outbreak has received international praise for its effectiveness in quarantining people.[12][4] As of 17 August, 168,216 tests had been conducted in Taiwan, with the vast majority not confirming a COVID-19 diagnosis.[1]

Starting 19 March, foreign nationals were barred from entering Taiwan, with some exceptions, such as those carrying out the term of a business contract, holding valid Alien Resident Certificates

That’s not a lockdown in anyone’s eyes, stop talking nonsense.
It’s clear Wibs is talking about stay at home, lockdown community orders, like the one currently in force in NZ.
If you’re going to continue arguing utter bullshit, debate with someone else.

 

[Wibble]

I like you in this thread, but come on.

Nobody said that, nobody.

When you raise Venezuela when talking about the economic impact of a lockdown then that is exactly what you are doing. You may as well say Somalia. It is the covid/economic equivalent of Godwin's law.

You can discuss economic impacts without lurching to Venuzuela just as you can discuss something authoritarian without lurching to a Hitler comparison.

 

[Stanley Road]

That’s not a lockdown in anyone’s eyes, stop talking nonsense.
It’s clear Wibs is talking about stay at home, lockdown community orders, like the one currently in force in NZ.
If you’re going to continue arguing utter bullshit, debate with someone else.

Bullshit? Big spike in south korea now, must be the no lockdown at work

 

[Wibble]

That’s not a lockdown in anyone’s eyes, stop talking nonsense.
It’s clear Wibs is talking about stay at home, lockdown community orders, like the one currently in force in NZ.
If you’re going to continue arguing utter bullshit, debate with someone else.

Is it?

Whatever internal lockdown measures are required they aren't going to work well without locked down borders and enforced quarantine etc and in many cases locking borders between countries and states allows lesser or even no internal lockdown e.g. WA and NT in Australia and all areas barring Auckland in NZ.

And Auckland has just come out of stage 3 lockdown not stage 4.

 

[Stanley Road]

Is it?

Whatever internal lockdown measures are required they aren't going to work well without locked down borders and enforced quarantine etc and in many cases locking borders between countries and states allows lesser or even no internal lockdown e.g. WA and NT in Australia and all areas barring Auckland in NZ.

And Auckland has just come out of stage 3 lockdown not stage 4.

Apparently Enforced Quarantine is not part of a lockdown

 

[Wibble]

I know @Sky1981, that’s my entire point. Different countries need different approaches, depending on a multitude of factors, not least their economic ability.
Wibs thinks there’s a one size fits all solution.

Germany have still had 10,000 deaths so not really a great success except by the extremly low bar set by the UK and US. And I don't think one size fits all but I do think most places have done far too little, far too late or in far too patchy a way. The UK's internal lockdown was largely squandered by having open borders and woeful testing for example.

 

[Wibble]

Well that’s utter bollocks, France and Belgium tell you that. (Portugal also).
Germany have massively outperformed both.
Finland, Norway & Denmark also piss on that stupid statement. South Korea another.
Important factors appear to be how fast a country got onto it, at what stage they “caught it” if you like. The the location, economic ability, land borders etc etc etc all have required different approaches.

It isn't going to be a linear relationship and lockdown after you have large scale infection in your country is always going to be less successful and take much longer to work than if you get in early by good decisions or luck. The whole world was far too slow off the mark with this pandemic and I hope next time we are much better at it. And there will be a next time.

Nobody says everywhere is the same but lockdown, if done properly, does massively reduce R. It has to and does.

 

[Wibble]

Yeah strain is a poorly defined term, some researchers have chosen to use it to describe lineages of SARS-CoV-2 with a single amino acid difference. I suppose you could use that definition if that amino acid change has a significant effect on virus physiology e.g. if it alters its transmissibility or virulence. There is a suggestion that one such amino acid change in the spike protein (D614G, or the "G-variant", which sounds like something out of resident evil) has increased transmissibility. As far as I know (from asking someone working on covid genomics at work) this variant does account for 97% of cases, but the jury is still out as to whether that is because of increased transmissibility or not (see short paper).

As for whether the diversity of "strains" can affect the efficacy of a vaccine, it definitely could but the extent to which it could is not clear yet. From what I understand, the mutation frequency of SAR-CoV-2 hasn't been fully characterised but seems to be in line with other coronaviruses, less than influenza, and significantly less than HIV (if I remember correctly there is as much genetic variation of HIV in one patient than there is of influenza around the world). The efficacy of a vaccine candidate is dependent on two things; 1) how robust the immune response is and how long the resulting immune memory lasts 2) whether the virus does anything to evade the resulting immune response, such as pick up mutations (antigenic drift).

1) We don't yet know how long the immune memory to SARS-CoV-2 infection will last, but we can say that SARS-CoV-2 specific antibodies last at least 3 months, as that is how long we've been able to measure so far. After that you can try and draw conclusions from other coronaviruses, for the common cold coronaviruses it is often stated that the immune memory lasts about a year (although I heard one virologist say that this assumption is based entirely on one paper, that also showed people who are reinfected don't develop symptoms link to podcast). In contrast, specific antibodies to SARS-CoV-1 last 2-3 years, and memory T-cells have been found 17-years after recovery from SARS Paper about T-cell responses in SARS-1&2 . There is an idea that the degree of immune memory is dictated to some extent by the severity of infection, which seems intuitive in this situation given the severity of SARS infection. So it is tricky to draw any conclusions from comparing to other coronaviruses, as there is a large variation in the severity of COVID-19 cases. As for a vaccine, you would hope that some of them will generate a robust immune response with lasting memory, which seems might be the case from phase 2 data (although I'm not sure how/if they can comment on memory this early?).

2) It is possible that the selective pressure of a vaccine could select for mutations that confer vaccine resistance, at which point the vaccine would need to be redesigned like for the flu. This is one of the arguments for co-ordinated mass vaccination, as less circulating virus reduces the rate at which new variants will arise. The reduced mutation frequency compared to influenza might help prolong the lifetime of a vaccine. Are there existing variants that could evade the vaccine? I'm not sure about this, I guess the people developing vaccines will have a close eye on any spike mutations that crop up.

I am pretty positive for an effective vaccine, based on the info above. It might not be one of the first wave, but there are a lot in development. Even a 50% effective vaccine could help us restore a large degree of normality.

Disclaimer: I work on bacteria not viruses and am not an expert in virology or immunology.

Thanks. Very informative.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

And Auckland has just come out of stage 3 lockdown not stage 4.

I meant Victoria, not NZ.

ahhhhh, so now you didn’t mean ”proper lockdown countries”, you meant countries with strict early border controls. (Bullshit but good moving goalposts).

But yeah, I agree with that, 100%! Some got lucky (those who acted in March), some like Taiwan & Vietnam were brilliant early responders.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Nobody says everywhere is the same but lockdown, if done properly, does massively reduce R. It has to and does.

Absolutely, no-one is arguing otherwise.

Although, no lockdown Sweden now has just 19 ICU patients and around 10 cases /million in the last 7 days. So even there, certain places can reduce the R right down with correct social distancing.

 

[Wibble]

I meant Victoria, not NZ.

ahhhhh, so now you didn’t mean ”proper lockdown countries”, you meant countries with strict early border controls. (Bullshit but good moving goalposts).

But yeah, I agree with that, 100%! Some got lucky (those who acted in March), some like Taiwan & Vietnam were brilliant early responders.

Lockdowns include all sorts of measures and border control and quarantine is a vital part of that as it allows gains made in one region/state/country to be msintsined without reinfection from their neighbours.

Victoria is down to about 100 infections a day now and we expect that to halves in a week. The lockdown is working despite the severe form only applying to the city itself.

 

[Wibble]

Absolutely, no-one is arguing otherwise.

Although, no lockdown Sweden now has just 19 ICU patients and around 10 cases /million in the last 7 days. So even there, certain places can reduce the R right down with correct social distancing.

I really hope that is the case as winter is coming which is believed to have been a factor in Melbourne's outbreak and is a big factor with many other viruses.

A vaccine can't arrive too soon IMO.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

I really hope that is the case as winter is coming which is believed to have been a factor in Melbourne's outbreak and is a big factor with many other viruses.

Swedish experts here called that from day one in fairness, and were slated by many. They were so matter of fact that all upper respiratory viruses ease off in the Summer and there was no chance this would be different.
Also something to consider when comparing Aus/NZ with Europe considering we got hit first in Winter.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Absolutely, no-one is arguing otherwise.

Although, no lockdown Sweden now has just 19 ICU patients and around 10 cases /million in the last 7 days. So even there, certain places can reduce the R right down with correct social distancing.

And that’s the problem. Knowing if any given country can get away with an approach that works in another country. Sweden has a very low population density, an unusually large number of single person households and a population that is inclined to be compliant with government regulations. Plus a huge number of Swedes spend the whole of August in their holiday homes in complete isolation, in the middle of nowhere.

In a way, the fact Sweden is keeping viral transmission low right now is arguably as much down to good luck as the initial wave of deaths could be down to bad luck (which I know you believe to be the case)

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

And that’s the problem. Knowing if any given country can get away with an approach that works in another country.

Absolutely.

The R came right down before the Summer though so it’s more than just “luck”. Our peak was 9th April remember. That Sweden has many distinct advantages over other countries with this kind of response I was talking about (and massively rebuked in here) back in March.

The first wave in Stockholm being bad luck I stand by, especially considering Malmö with it’s earlier half term still has less than 300 deaths.
But that said, I have maintained since the start that all countries should have been much stricter to China, and those that were (who learned their lesson from 2003) have done very well indeed. That wasn’t luck, that was good planning.

The Swedish Health Ministry and so many others in the World were caught napping, believing “ah, it won’t come here, it’ll be like SARS”.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Absolutely.

The R came right down before the Summer though so it’s more than just “luck”. Our peak was 9th April remember. That Sweden has many distinct advantages over other countries with this kind of response I was talking about (and massively rebuked in here) back in March.

The first wave in Stockholm being bad luck I stand by, especially considering Malmö with it’s earlier half term still has less than 300 deaths.
But that said, I have maintained since the start that all countries should have been much stricter to China, and those that were (who learned their lesson from 2003) have done very well indeed. That wasn’t luck, that was good planning.

The countries that have done well after learning from 2003 have done so for numerous reasons which have nothing to do with being “stricter to China” (although border control is obviously relevant too) And it was good planning, agreed. It’s to be expected that those countries were better prepared than any others. The first novel virus epidemic will tend to focus the mind ahead of the next one!

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

The countries that have done well after learning from 2003 have done so for numerous reasons which have nothing to do with being “stricter to China” (although border control is obviously relevant too) And it was good planning, agreed. It’s to be expected that those countries were better prepared than any others. The first novel virus epidemic will tend to focus the mind ahead of the next one!

Once again, absolutely.

 

[Wibble]

It will be interesting to see if the impending end of our winter will further help Victoria get things under control.

Our government is aiming to be largely open internally by the end of the year but not allow international travel until 2021/maybe until a vaccine.

 

[Tony Babangida]

It will be interesting to see if the impending end of our winter will further help Victoria get things under control.

Our government is aiming to be largely open internally by the end of the year but not allow international travel until 2021/maybe until a vaccine.

I often wonder if covid if Covid-19 is at least some extent seasonal. But then why do Brazil and the US have such high numbers in their summer? Not sure we can say for sure. I guess we are about to find out as the seasons swap across hemispheres!

I‘m hopeful that Aus can open back up in a month or two if Melbourne continues on this trend. After opening we will have to be spot on with testing, isolation, and contact tracing. It seems like NSW has been doing this well so far. Plus, as you say, keep international borders closed and/or strict hotel quarantine. Mandating masks in areas with flare ups also seems like a reasonable plan.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

It will be interesting to see if the impending end of our winter will further help Victoria get things under control.

Our government is aiming to be largely open internally by the end of the year but not allow international travel until 2021/maybe until a vaccine.

Any travel at all? In or out? Bloody hell. Economic consequences aside, that’s a big ask for Aussie citizens. Births, marriages, funerals without getting to see family members from overseas.

 

[Wibble]

I often wonder if covid if Covid-19 is at least some extent seasonal. But then why do Brazil and the US have such high numbers in their summer? Not sure we can say for sure. I guess we are about to find out as the seasons swap across hemispheres!

I‘m hopeful that Aus can open back up in a month or two if Melbourne continues on this trend. After opening we will have to be spot on with testing, isolation, and contact tracing. It seems like NSW has been doing this well so far. Plus, as you say, keep international borders closed and/or strict hotel quarantine. Mandating masks in areas with flare ups also seems like a reasonable plan.

The US and Brazil are Covid basket-cases so perhaps hard to take much from their failures.

Agreed. It sucks but works.

Although I am shocked how quickly people in NSW have largely stopped wearing masks and giving a toss about social distancing.

A week ago when it could have gone either way in NSW up to 50% were wearing masks in the supermarket. Today that was no more than 10% were and 5 people pushed past me on the escalator from the carpark (I wasn't walking as I broke a toe yesterday) when waiting would have cost them about 90 seconds.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Any travel at all? In or out? Bloody hell. Economic consequences aside, that’s a big ask for Aussie citizens. Births, marriages, funerals without getting to see family members from overseas.

It tends to be forgotten how many families are split across the planet these days, one of my best mates over here just had her first baby 2 weeks back, feck me if her family from Aus can’t even visit until then.
That is one hell of an ask.
And if no decent vaccine arrives until 2022, what then? It’s putting a hell of a lot of faith in a fast vaccine, no wonders Wibs has everything bet on it arriving in record speed.

 

[Wibble]

Any travel at all? In or out? Bloody hell. Economic consequences aside, that’s a big ask for Aussie citizens. Births, marriages, funerals without getting to see family members from overseas.

We are banned from leaving barring a few exceptions. Only citizens (and permanent residents I assume) are allowed in but they have capped the numbers allowed in per day so much that at least 100k are stranded overseas. Far more if you include people like the offspring who decided it wasn't even worth trying especially a he may not be allowed to leave which would invalidate his scholarship.

 

[Wibble]

My collegue's ex father in law died in Tokyo and although his ex (a joint Au Japanese citizen) was allowed to go to the funeral and quarantine on her return, their daughter, who is only an aussie citizen was denied permission to travel.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

It tends to be forgotten how many families are split across the planet these days, one of my best mates over here just had her first baby 2 weeks back, feck me if her family from Aus can’t even visit until then.
That it one hell of an ask.

It really is. Although didn’t NZ have an outbreak from two English women that flew in to attend a funeral? If you’re trying to reach and attain complete viral eradication then you have to take these extreme measures.

I’ve gone back and forth on what the best outcome is for any country but I’m getting more into the “just live with it” camp as time goes by. Even in countries with unique advantages like NZ or Aus, the steps they have to take to keep the virus out seem to be really tough on their citizens. Especially when the duration is so uncertain.

 

[Wibble]

It really is. Although didn’t NZ have an outbreak from two English women that flew in to attend a funeral? If you’re trying to reach and attain complete viral eradication then you have to take these extreme measures.

I’ve gone back and forth on what the best outcome is for any country but I’m getting more into the “just live with it” camp as time goes by. Even in countries with unique advantages like NZ or Aus, the steps they have to take to keep the virus out seem to be really tough on their citizens. Especially when the duration is so uncertain.

They were Kiwi's who traveled back from the UK due to the sudden death of a relative. They were also let out of quarantine early (I think) although not allowed to go to the actual funeral. This is no longer allowed for obvious reasons.

 

[Carolina Red]

Oh good, and now that the CDC has reported that 94% of Covid deaths had comorbidity, the scientifically illiterate American public thinks that only 6% of the deaths are actual Covid deaths.

fecking great

 

[Wibble]

It tends to be forgotten how many families are split across the planet these days, one of my best mates over here just had her first baby 2 weeks back, feck me if her family from Aus can’t even visit until then.
That is one hell of an ask.
And if no decent vaccine arrives until 2022, what then? It’s putting a hell of a lot of faith in a fast vaccine, no wonders Wibs has everything bet on it arriving in record speed.

My son is stuck in the US and we may end up not seeing him in person for nearly 2 years. It is of course upsetting (I mainly try not to think about it too much) but it is what it is an necessary.

I'm also not betting anything. I think a vaccine is close to a certainty but nothing says it will be the first one for sure. I hope it is of course. I think from what I've read that the UQ vaccine could be the best bet but that isn't close to stage 3 testing yet. https://www.uq.edu.au/news/article/...-report-positive-results-pre-clinical-testing

It will be interesting to see what happens to vaccine development once the first successful covid vaccine is distributed.

 

[Wibble]

Oh good, and now that the CDC has reported that 94% of Covid deaths had comorbidity, the scientifically illiterate American public thinks that only 6% of the deaths are actual Covid deaths.

fecking great

Where is that triple facepalm meme when you need it.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

It really is. Although didn’t NZ have an outbreak from two English women that flew in to attend a funeral? If you’re trying to reach and attain complete viral eradication then you have to take these extreme measures.

I’ve gone back and forth on what the best outcome is for any country but I’m getting more into the “just live with it” camp as time goes by. Even in countries with unique advantages like NZ or Aus, the steps they have to take to keep the virus out seem to be really tough on their citizens. Especially when the duration is so uncertain.

It goes without saying that I’m delighted I live where I do, where the power has been transferred back to the citizens for the most part to get this under control.
In part because I also saw Israel, Melbourne and the increases again in Europe post lockdown etc as inevitabilities.
Melbourne will get it under control but 40+ deaths today sounds like it’s already done lots of damage in care homes and the death toll will continue to rise even after cases down to single digits. And will Covid-19 be gone from Australia then and won’t break out again? I’m not convinced. As Wibs says, a vaccine can’t come soon enough for them.

Now don’t get me wrong here, Sweden were alone at one point with their response, but the rest of the Nordics, Germany and plenty of other places are exactly where Sweden are now (Finland even better off with public at footy matches again etc) but with much less excess deaths so I’m not remotely claiming Sweden is a stand-out phenomenon here in “cool place to currently live”. And NZ lived a normal life aside from the travel thing for a long time and will no doubt be back to it again soon, even parkrun was back up and running there, also my mates in NSW seem to be having a great time of it, the lads all had a weekend retreat away with not a thought in the World about Covid-19.

But I do feel especially so when I see the struggles still in so many countries that locked down hard or what Victoria are prepared to do to keep cases down.
I really do hope we can keep it down here, I hope antibody and T-Cells are part of the reason for the drop in cases. For a country that gave the citizens the power and never closed a single border that’d be huge.
I know the kids feel great, and I know that the silver lining to come out of the care home fiasco is that contracts and employment standards have been raised and hopefully will remain that way.
Thankfully the excess deaths for 2020 is at 3800 and dropping, but worried the autumn/winter might push that up again.
Aside from watching football & competitive running races, the only country affecting my rights and wishes through this is my homeland, who still refuse to put Sweden on the travel corridor despite spending weeks below their apparent threshold. Thursday will be interesting after Sweden had a record low week last week, will the UK do it, or will they continue to ignore Sweden for political reasons due to them going their own way?

 

[Wibble]

I live in Melbourne so have been under curfew and 1 hour exercise per day for a month, got two weeks left to go. Also all my family is on the other side of the planet and I can’t leave Australia. It’s definitely hard, sometimes very hard, but if we come out of this lockdown and in a couple of months can have Australian state borders open with zero or very little community transmission then for me it will have been worth it. I hope international borders will then open, with quarantine for most, but some countries (NZ) exempt.

How long can that be sustained? With proper quarantine, contact tracing etc, maybe until a vaccine, which could come early-mid next year. It does rest on Aus learning from what has just happened in Vic and not letting its guard down, which you’d hope will be taken on board.

You would hope but given the Federal Government seem more intent on blaming Dan Andrews, who I think has been brilliant in terrible circumstances, rather than acknowledge that things don't always go to plan, combined with their total abdication of responsibility for their feck up privatising much of aged care I do wonder.

In general I think that the states and their premiers have done a fantastic job (never thought I say that about Gladys) but federal less so - although much better that I expected given the bunch of cnuts we have in charge federally.

 

[Wibble]

Melbourne will get it under control but 40+ deaths today sounds like it’s already done lots of damage in care homes and the death toll will continue to rise even after cases down to single digits. And will Covid-19 be gone from Australia then and won’t break out again? I’m not convinced. As Wibs says, a vaccine can’t come soon enough for them.

It was actually 19 yesterday and the rest were deaths in aged cared homes over the pas few weeks that hadn't been attributed to covid.

Still 40+ devastated families of course and I'm not ashamed to say those numbers caused me to tear up a bit this morning.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

It was actually 19 yesterday and the rest were deaths in aged cared homes over the pas few weeks that hadn't been attributed to covid.

Still 40+ devastated families of course and I'm not ashamed to say those numbers caused me to tear up a bit this morning.

I get you.

And yeah, no difference there as with here, care home deaths especially always bunched up and reported in one group. UK do the same.

 

[Wibble]

I get you.

And yeah, no difference there as with here, care home deaths especially always bunched up and reported in one group. UK do the same.

I think generally they get reported daily but they found some misreporting that got corrected.

Either way we have gone from just over 100 deaths to over 500 in about a month as covid has got into some Victorian care homes. An utter tragedy.

 

[Virgil]

Germany have still had 10,000 deaths so not really a great success except by the extremly low bar set by the UK and US. And I don't think one size fits all but I do think most places have done far too little, far too late or in far too patchy a way. The UK's internal lockdown was largely squandered by having open borders and woeful testing for example.

I strongly suspect that what you say is the nub of the problem for most European countries, especially the UK. I have no desire to derail the thread but without doubt the UKs economy was and still does remain so reliant on foreign workers, particularly from EU countries that not even a government of National Unity could have swung a 'total border' lockdown which I freely accept would have been the sensible approach to take. We have become so used to easy and dirt cheap continental travel that for any government to have attempted to prevent it would indeed have created deep unrest amongst the citizens - as how bitterly the current measures regarding travel into and out of the UK from certain countries demonstrates. And throwing a truly curved ball on this subject into the equation to have put up the barriers would have driven a coach and horses through the Good Friday agreement. Without doubt the UK has suffered as much from its Global International position as it has from incompetent government. Sadly as well there is something in the psyche of the average Brit that believes 'sod you its my right to go where I like and to do as I please'........ a trait we exported to America in the 17th century.