Definitely. Although it would have helped if China had been as forthcoming about viral transmission as the Uk have been this last week.
SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)
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Definitely. Although it would have helped if China had been as forthcoming about viral transmission as the Uk have been this last week.
Brwned Do you want some more IF statements in your post? .
All I'm saying is, in August, all the parents in my circle (including myself) were saying "cases will go up when schools go back, cases will go up when schools go back, cases will go up when schools go back."
And they did. And the government were underprepared.
It’s not just schools reopening that caused this. It’s the combination of schools and all the rest. We’ve no idea what would have happened if they had opened schools but not pubs/restaurants/offices and vice versa. I don’t think anyone had the appetite to keep the whole lot shut down until Christmas, that’s for sure. Hence we are were we are.
My personal bug bear was allowing offices to reopen but we’ll all have different axes to grind depending on our personal circumstances.
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You’re talking to a man who takes biased surveys that say there is limited evidence regarding spread in schools as evidence there is limited spread on schools. And accuses others of blind spots.
It's the people not following the rules that don't help- my partners parents have been over twice, despite us being in tier 2 where visiting other people in their home Is banned. Safe to say I was not immune, however I think his family thinks they're immune, his brother brags about walking round on public transport with no mask and says he would say he was exempt if asked. Said brother is also one of the "virus doesn't exist" lot. His dad is elderly so vulnerable, but no that isn't stopping them! His mother hugs partner and everything when coming round, no social distancing.
While I haven't been round my parents, bar during the summer when lock down lifted, and they haven't been round ours, because we can see the bigger picture and want to protect each other.
While I haven't been round my parents, bar during the summer when lock down lifted, and they haven't been round ours, because we can see the bigger picture and want to protect each other.
Have a very ill brother that likely wont make it another year. Have waited until this Christmas break to travel south from Scotland to see him for the first time in a while and now haven't got a clue what to do.
It’s not, but all the evidence they had showed that school closures had a significantly bigger impact on the R rate than hospitality. And we have had plenty of periods where hospitality was shut and schools weren’t with minimal impact on case numbers. We need to try to at least stagger attendance at schools and assess how that works.
Having offices open is obviously a much more stupid decision. There at least is a practical benefit in trying to keep schools open other than the economy. Recommending people go back to the office to save the high street was premature and costly.
@Pogue Mahone indeed not saying it's just schools that caused this. I only brought it up to say; we talk of competence in government but I think they also are severely lacking in common sense.
The UK government might be mostly run by middle aged men who's wives raised their children, and so maybe they do lack the commen sense that the average mum of 3 from Bury could tell them. But as @NinjaFletch says there were warnings that something else might have to close to allow Schools to open.
So a failure of commen sense, and a failure of competence.
The UK government might be mostly run by middle aged men who's wives raised their children, and so maybe they do lack the commen sense that the average mum of 3 from Bury could tell them. But as @NinjaFletch says there were warnings that something else might have to close to allow Schools to open.
So a failure of commen sense, and a failure of competence.
I'm probably a bit unusual on here in that I think schools should have remained open throughout. The consequences of shutting schools for many disadvantaged kids is just too great, in my opinion. I've seen it first hand. I would shut almost literally anything and everything else ahead of schools.
Or we could try limiting attendance to those most in need. That’s at least trying something other than closing our eyes and hoping for the best.
Schools should have definitely gone back earlier.
My local pub effectively reopened before my local school did.
Priorities
True, China had never been forthcoming and tried to cover up every time when there's a crisis. That's why when they announced the occurence of suspicious pneumonia by Dec 31, people should have already prepared for the worst. Instead the corrupted WHO joined the club and recommended against issuing a travelling ban on China, and many countries were so dumb that they followed the advice.
Of course, but we knew that the re-opening of schools was going to be a significant contributory factor and we have people on the record saying that. My issue is pretending like the case spike was unforeseeable or unpreventable, or that it's absurd to suggest that what we saw in the UK (which was, let's be clear, to change absolutely nothing bar re-open schools and force universities with threats of tuition fee reimbursement to teach f2f) was governmental incompetence just because other countries in Europe were similarly complacent in the summer.
If schools had to re-open, and I completely accept the argument that they did, then we needed a public debate at what cost that should come both in terms of what we needed to close, and how many deaths we would accept for them. We never had that.
My friends mum is a primary school headteacher and according to her a high majority of kids at her school have been so hugely handicapped both educationally and socially that they may never catch up.
Yes better measures are needed to protect teachers but shutting schools (especially primary) just isn't an option.
Yes better measures are needed to protect teachers but shutting schools (especially primary) just isn't an option.
I think it's going to be devastating for a lot of children's futures.
It's genuinely terrifying how many people are so relaxed about the prospect of schools closing again, or in some cases even calling for it.
Guys, a question. My colleague and his daughters started quarantining on Friday after his wife was confirmed as positive, yesterday his youngest daughter tested positive, does his 10 days quarantining start again from scratch?
What you are saying isnt completely true with this virus. They should have been more forthcoming earlier but they did release the genome sequencing in January which meant virologists around the world were able to start working on the virus pretty early on in the scene. Within days of the genome sequence being released scientists all over the world were making noises about the seriousness of the virus. This article was from Jan 11th. I remember it being fairly prominent in the news. https://www.sciencemag.org/news/202...ome-virus-implicated-wuhan-pneumonia-outbreak
Most people seem to be more concerned about their own ability to socialise than with the vital importance of schools. While I understand people being selfish to some degree - especially at this time of year - it's incredibly short-sighted.
Even now, too many people have failed to internalise the seriousness of this disease. A couple of pages ago @Roger made a comparison to the kinds of sacrifices people needed to make during WWII and in the years afterwards, and how comparatively trivial the restrictions this year have been on most of our lives. I don't know if our generation is just weaker than back then, but it's been pretty disappointing to me how many people seem unable to cope with adversity. I'm not talking about people with serious mental or physical health problems, but just regular people who have been taking the piss and to hell with the consequences. I've certainly learnt which of my friends walk the walk about being caring/rational/civilised people, and which of them will throw everyone under the bus for their own gratification.
the "west" is getting the experience that asia had in 2009 with pandemics and that is why they reacted so well, government and the citizens. Nothing is learnt better than feeling it into your skin. If (when)cit happens again, it will be a plan and hopefully reaction will be better. Blaming not having borders in europe is nonsense. China has no borders inside their 1.5 billion people, or India. Controls can be achieved inside the EU as it can be inside individual countries like regionalized lockdowns. Is a matter to have a plan, be clear about it and implemented. Not the blurry shitshows that we had been having all around europe at ALL LEVELS
With next generation sequencing the viral genome could be sequenced within a day. It's really basic and I wouldn't call it forthcoming.
Only possible if the plebs are willing to forego their 'freedoms'. We have all the technology and data analytical tools to track movement of individuals, but the west also has a citizenry who wont ever trust their Governments to use such measures.
'Free Democratic' societies seem like the best place for a virus to create a pandemic. I'm sure this has been noted by every would be bio-terrorist for future plans.
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That’s my own take too.
Thanks
They certainly haven't. A local warehouse employing hundreds of people in my local area with no social distancing. They even tried to hide an outbreak from the union that represents most of the workers. Big supermarkets are now flagrantly disregarding social distancing. The rail companies allowing people to pack trains on Friday, in London. Tales of employers using fear to discourage workers that need to self isolate. Nothing done to these potential super spreaders but visit your gran on Christmas Day and get fined. (I'm not advocating that, by the way)
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The response to the virus has been for the majority of the world abysmal and yes the Chinese should be held responsible for the virus but the mess we see around the world is also in part because Govts and populations handled this pandemic very poorly. There were poor policy decisions made where many govts did not heed the warnings of their own scientists and there was a poor reaction from many populations because of complacency and a thing called "absence of fear" a term which is more often referred to anti vaccers. Many Govts failed miserably in getting their people fully onboard in dealing with the virus. Govts and populations that had been hit by the SARs virus have for the most part been the ones which have done better with this one, they didnt have the "absence of fear" factor.
If you just want to blame the whole abysmal handling of the pandemic on the Chinese you are completely ignoring important things which will help when the next one comes along.
I call the first week of January when they actually released the genome sequencing pretty forthcoming in the bigger scheme of things. It was certainly early enough in the scene for the rest of the world to have reacted far better than the majority of it did. Yes China should shoulder a decent chunk of responsibility for not saying something in early December but the Genome sequence being in the hands of Scientists around the world in the 2nd week of January was early enough for a far better plan of action to have been taken. I remember this news very clearly, it was big news at the time.
The response to the virus has been for the majority of the world abysmal and yes the Chinese should be held responsible for the virus but the mess we see around the world is also in part because Govts and populations handled this pandemic very poorly. There were poor policy decisions made where many govts did not heed the warnings of their own scientists and there was a poor reaction from many populations because of complacency and a thing called "absence of fear" a term which is more often referred to anti vaccers. Many Govts failed miserably in getting their people fully onboard in dealing with the virus. Govts and populations that had been hit by the SARs virus have for the most part been the ones which have done better with this one, they didnt have the "absence of fear" factor.
If you just want to blame the whole abysmal handling of the pandemic on the Chinese you are completely ignoring important things which will help when the next one comes along.
You shouldn’t be. I teach in one of the most disadvantaged areas of the UK and I cannot stress enough just how important it is that children are attending school.
If there is to be a (brief) move to online learning in response to the current concerns, government should bloody well hurry up and let us know. There has been systemic failure across the board in relation to the handling of this pandemic but I find it hard to articulate just how preposterous the response has been from within my own context of working in education. Schools have generally risen to the challenge, climbed above the inadequacy, and then some.
In response to this, I’ll be spending next week making sure my Google Classroom resources are good to go for the following week. These halfwits will probably wait until the Sunday night to make the decision so I’d best get ahead.
Who do yall predict will open borders next after france
There’s two ifs at either end of the spectrum. Either you believe one of those two or you have a different explanation entirely. The fact you sidestep it is quite indicativeBrwned Do you want some more IF statements in your post? .
All I'm saying is, in August, all the parents in my circle (including myself) were saying "cases will go up when schools go back, cases will go up when schools go back, cases will go up when schools go back."
And they did. And the government were underprepared.
To be fair, Christmas is a bit of a natural lockdown anyway. (In some ways)
People take time off.
Kids are off school.
They've pretty much cancelled Christmas. They have for me anyway. The inevitable 1st January lockdown will be more of the same.
fecking Germany. Was hoping if they open borders most other countries will follow, but no, they extend the ban
Totally agree.
In fact we're on the same page. I totally agree that many governments have made poor decisions and policies handling the pandemic, like I said in #51296 they were so dumb not to issue a travelling ban or close the borders against China at the early phase.
However I think you still have some misunderstanding about genome sequencing. Sequence information has little use other than detection kit and vaccine development (both completed well done). Policy making relies on early, accurate epidemiological data, which are at least partially held back by China. You said it yourself, they could have said something in early December.
As a healthcare professional grown up in a city hit by SARS, I'd say the best chance to prevent this pandemic is to contain the virus within Wuhan, or at least within China. After this point, all efforts are just damage limitation. Yes some countries are handling better than others; but to me, the one who causes the damage shoulders a much more responsibility than those who fail to limit the damage.
I think that, specifically for the UK government, they hugely underestimsted the impact that kids and uni students going back to school and uni would have.
I think that, specifically for the UK, the government assumed that the protections the schools and unis would put in place would be enough.
I think that, specifically for the UK, the UK government is run by a bunch of out-of-touch middle aged men and the occasional childless middle aged woman, and so as a group they *do* lack the common sense you might find from mothers and involved parents.
I suspect that other countries may be similarly run by middle aged men and childless middle aged woman.
I have evidence that the UK government underestimated the impact schools and unis going back would have, from radio interviews, newspaper articles and the destruction of track and trace in September.
I have no idea what your point is
I wouldn't believe Boris if he told me today was Tuesday. Turns out this statement was more microwaved bullshit than an oven ready product.
France haven't opened their borders to the UK except for freight and returning French nationals/ residents provided the people involved test negative.
Also the schools in France have not been closed since before the summer holidays.
My mrs is a district nurse, 2 of her patients tested positive today.
She tested negative a week ago.
Both patients have Alzheimer's and are housebound so........how did they get it?
Enjoy your family xmas dinners everyone.
She tested negative a week ago.
Both patients have Alzheimer's and are housebound so........how did they get it?
Enjoy your family xmas dinners everyone.
We went into lock down in Wales on Sunday night. It has been quieter, not as quiet as last lock downs but I would imagine that is the Christmas effect. Today was the only time I have been out though when shopping for in laws. My wife and son have both been working and said it has been a bit quieter. My next door neighbour put his lights up outside his house today which probably means his family will turn up from Preston tonight or tomorrow. Most people in the village respect the rules but for some reason he doesn`t think they apply to him .
That's all well and good but unlikely to be very much better. The second wave says it all. Because of
1) mAh fReEdOm!!111!!1
2) Big money simply has too much power and influence to bribe politicians to do as they say. And they say reopen the economy so that they can make an extra euro/pound/dollar.