SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)

Kag said:
On a more positive note, I shopped within a busy city centre yesterday and compliance with the regulations was generally fantastic. It usually is, whether I am shopping in the supermarket, interacting with parents of the pupils I teach, or simply walking along a narrow path: people regularly demonstrate good manners and behave in a civilised way by allowing others past.

In truth, it’s a little tedious having to read (and listen to elsewhere) the same monotonous dribble re. widespread lack of compliance. Hear me out. Some people have an irritating (and frankly unhealthy) habit of using a handful of incidents they disapprove of as a stick to beat an entire populace with. You’re going to get the odd idiot. You’re going to get quite a few. But unless you’re living in Mordor, you should be able to pull your head out of your own arse to realise that most people are inherently decent and are trying hard (in their own awkward way) to follow the guidance as best as possible. Just look around and highlight the overwhelming number of good folk, for goodness sake. And yes, some people are going to make mistakes. It happens. If you spend your entire day looking for reasons to be angry then you’re probably going to feel that way: perhaps this might ring a few bells for some of the resident oddball ‘I-hope-they-become-seriously-unwell’ types we encounter throughout these threads...
Click to expand...
Couldn't have put it better myself, infact I'll say there's a lot more people going too far the other way compared to that way.

Both ofcourse are in the minority however.
 
acnumber9 said:
Personally I think the Government needs to decide on a lockdown akin to that in March
Click to expand...
This I agree wholeheartedly with, seems to be only a matter of time.


Kag said:
On a more positive note, I shopped within a busy city centre yesterday and compliance with the regulations was generally fantastic. It usually is, whether I am shopping in the supermarket, interacting with parents of the pupils I teach, or simply walking along a narrow path: people regularly demonstrate good manners and behave in a civilised way by allowing others past.

In truth, it’s a little tedious having to read (and listen to elsewhere) the same monotonous dribble re. widespread lack of compliance. Hear me out. Some people have an irritating (and frankly unhealthy) habit of using a handful of incidents they disapprove of as a stick to beat an entire populace with. You’re going to get the odd idiot. You’re going to get quite a few. But unless you’re living in Mordor, you should be able to pull your head out of your own arse to realise that most people are inherently decent and are trying hard (in their own awkward way) to follow the guidance as best as possible. Just look around and highlight the overwhelming number of good folk, for goodness sake. And yes, some people are going to make mistakes. It happens. If you spend your entire day looking for reasons to be angry then you’re probably going to feel that way: perhaps this might ring a few bells for some of the resident oddball ‘I-hope-they-become-seriously-unwell’ types we encounter throughout these threads...
Click to expand...
Also Kag I on the whole agree with what you are saying here, I will add though that fatigue is setting in with some people and more and more seem to be dropping their guard and/or blurring the lines on what is allowed or not
 
Only way to see people buying into a lockdown like before is if they give it a clear goal other than R rate coming down.

If they said they are locking down for 3 weeks/month to vaccinate around the clock people would be on board.

Even if it is right thing to do, people can't mentally and financially keep yo-yoing cos the government has no clear plan
 
NYAS said:
Can anyone please tell me how so many people under the age of 35 think the vaccine will make them infertile?

I’m baffled as to how widespread that belief is among that demographic. How has it come about? Was there some BS video that went viral about it that I missed?

Honestly this is not just a small minority of Facebook-using anti-vaxxers anymore. From what I’m seeing, it’s well on the way to becoming the predominant view.
Click to expand...
Multiple ideas/rumour and partly understood stories interacting maybe? I don't know what has happened with your particular circle of contacts but I may know a bit of the backstory.

Someone (I've no idea of the actual originator or their qualifications) a couple of months back came up with graphics showing similarities between the targeted spike protein and some crucial part of the biochemistry that produces stable placenta and allows egg implantation.

They asked, will the vaccinated body start attacking those proteins as well? Nice professional looking animated graphics - and a question that had no 100% guaranteed answer, except in terms of computer simulations, animal experiments and Petri dish tests. We know a bit more now because some of the women on the Pfizer trial became pregnant during it - so those women will be monitored through their pregnancy. As indeed will any woman becoming pregnant having taken the vaccine

Then there are the trials themselves. It's generally viewed as unethical to test drugs on pregnant women. Clinical trials are just that - trials to see if it works and it's safe. Before testing on pregnant women (and those planning to become pregnant soon after) it's generally accepted that you need to know (as far as possible) what happens to the woman, the pregnancy and the baby. Theoretically, according to the scientists involved there seems to be minimal risk - but theory and minimal aren't really good enough here.

Animal trials usually provide some of this data, but those include developmental studies on the offspring (and therefore a couple of years) to complete. Chances are - we'll have some human data before those trials are complete/published because some women will be pregnant or will get pregnant soon after they take it.

Consequently, the vaccine makers caution that the drugs were not tested on pregnant women or those planning to become pregnant immediately (within a month or two) after taking them. In the UK, that has led to an "advise against" for pregnant women. In the US the FDA have simply labelled their use as "untested".

Oddly enough - this caution, rather than being seen as responsible science and appropriate trial ethics, is seen as some kind of admission of guilt by government/big pharma that the vaccines are dangerous. Big pharma trying to dodge its liabilities.

Plus, of course in FB antivax land, Bill Gates is associated with birth control and vaccines campaigns. Therefore all vaccines = population control (of the eugenic variety)
 
NYAS said:
Can anyone please tell me how so many people under the age of 35 think the vaccine will make them infertile?

I’m baffled as to how widespread that belief is among that demographic. How has it come about? Was there some BS video that went viral about it that I missed?

Honestly this is not just a small minority of Facebook-using anti-vaxxers anymore. From what I’m seeing, it’s well on the way to becoming the predominant view.
Click to expand...
As if my last answer wasn't long enough... Inevitably, this morning I saw some old rumours about vaccines and sperm quality reappear. Again they come down to people seeing what I'd view as scientific "due diligence" as a reason to panic.

Pfizer amongst others, on Phase 3 trials, includes a standard "use contraception for 30 days" post vaccination declaration for men. Some trials have been done and others are being done with small groups of men to check sperm quantity/quality/motility before and after the vaccine, and ongoing monitoring - not because they think there's a problem, because they need to test even when they think there isn't one.

Further back in the timelines, I've found this one from the Reuters fact check team:
https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-covid-vaccine-causing-infer-idUSKBN25H20G that identifies some of the original sources of the rumours.

Incidentally, it's worth noting that Covid does impact male fertility:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/victor...erm-count-and-quality-in-recovering-patients/
at least temporarily (which is all we know about right now) - but then so do quite a few other serious illnesses.
 
Carolina Red said:
My wife got her first dose of the vaccine today. Can’t tell you how proud I am of her and what she’s done this year. Hopefully this will keep her safe.
Click to expand...
Thats great news mate, she is a proper superstar
calodo2003 said:
Where’s here? UK?

If there’s one thing that my country doesn’t lack is the size of our police ranks. We could loan you thousands.
Click to expand...
Cant see there being too many volunteers when they find out they don't get to bring their guns
 
NYAS said:
Can anyone please tell me how so many people under the age of 35 think the vaccine will make them infertile?

I’m baffled as to how widespread that belief is among that demographic. How has it come about? Was there some BS video that went viral about it that I missed?

Honestly this is not just a small minority of Facebook-using anti-vaxxers anymore. From what I’m seeing, it’s well on the way to becoming the predominant view.
Click to expand...

To be honest, it was one of my first instinctive thoughts/concerns. When I discussed the vaccine in general with friends they were concerned too.

It's not to do with a video or the belief there is a plan to reduce the world's population. It seems to be a normal reaction for many who hope to have kids in a few years
 
LARulz said:
To be honest, it was one of my first instinctive thoughts/concerns. When I discussed the vaccine in general with friends they were concerned too.

It's not to do with a video or the belief there is a plan to reduce the world's population. It seems to be a normal reaction for many who hope to have kids in a few years
Click to expand...

The idea a bunch of right wing governments have a plan to reduce the worlds population is laughable. Especially when the suggestion is that they will try to do so by throttling the birth rates. We have an ageing population already and it’s a major problem, not only in social terms but economic ones too.

A vaccine being the answer to this issue is so daft. Letting this virus ravage the elders of this world and making alcohol and viagra free is the real fix.
 
Does anyone else follow Red Issue on Twitter? feck me, they’re fecking thick as chips on this matter.
 
LARulz said:
To be honest, it was one of my first instinctive thoughts/concerns. When I discussed the vaccine in general with friends they were concerned too.

It's not to do with a video or the belief there is a plan to reduce the world's population. It seems to be a normal reaction for many who hope to have kids in a few years
Click to expand...

Out of interest, do you and your friends discuss/worry about the effect of catching covid on future fertility? We’re still learning about long term effects of covid but we already know it has immediate negative effects on male fertility and the virus that causes mumps can have similar, permanent, effects.

I do understand people being nervous about taking a recently developed vaccine, which we will learn more about in the months/years ahead. But we already know a lot about the vaccine after rigorous testing during its development. And this testing has shown it to be extremely safe.

Where these understandable anxieties become illogical is if they lead to deliberately giving yourself an increased chance of catching a virus that is similarly novel and where we are also still learning about long term consequences. And what we do know already is that in the short/medium term it is considerably more nasty and harmful than the vaccine.

So why would anyone be more fearful of the vaccine than they are about the virus? That makes no sense at all.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Out of interest, do you and your friends discuss/worry about the effect of catching covid on future fertility? We’re still learning about long term effects of covid but we already know it has immediate negative effects on male fertility and the virus that causes mumps can have similar, permanent, effects.

I do understand people being nervous about taking a recently developed vaccine, which we will learn more about in the months/years ahead. But we already know a lot about the vaccine after rigorous testing during its development. And this testing has shown it to be extremely safe.

Where these understandable anxieties become illogical is if they lead to deliberately giving yourself an increased chance of catching a virus that is similarly novel and where we are also still learning about long term consequences. And what we do know already is that it is considerably more nasty and harmful than the vaccine.

So why would anyone be more fearful of the vaccine than they are about the virus? That makes no sense at all.
Click to expand...

Yep to both sides - especially as we know 'long COVID' seems to vary in people (at least I think so anyway). We are all educated people who are relatively successful in our fields of work, but none of us are scientists. So for us, I think in part with our age/life stage, we all immediately thought what if it impacts our ability to have kids (it's a general concern we would have but ramped up a bit due to all this)

We would all take the vaccine as needed, but that doesn't make it illogical to have slight concerns. It could be jumping onto a massive bouncy castle with pillows as high as Big Ben surrounding it so you are guaranteed a soft landing, but that doesn't mean you wouldn't have a slight concern naturally (or for some people).

Not you necessarily, but when people who are happy to take a vaccine and trust the scientists ask even a slight question (not because they doubt the scientists, but because we are just genuinely not knowledgeable enough and want to know) getting jumped on and being labelled and anti-vaxxer doesn't help the situation. It stops people asking questions/being convinced and definitely pushes them to the other side - you aren't exactly going to side with people who call you a moron and generally insult you for wanting to know an answer, especially if it's a genuine attempt to understand. Imagine if teachers did that at school
 
LARulz said:
Yep to both sides - especially as we know 'long COVID' seems to vary in people (at least I think so anyway). We are all educated people who are relatively successful in our fields of work, but none of us are scientists. So for us, I think in part with our age/life stage, we all immediately thought what if it impacts our ability to have kids (it's a general concern we would have but ramped up a bit due to all this)

We would all take the vaccine as needed, but that doesn't make it illogical to have slight concerns. It could be jumping onto a massive bouncy castle with pillows as high as Big Ben surrounding it so you are guaranteed a soft landing, but that doesn't mean you wouldn't have a slight concern naturally (or for some people).

Not you necessarily, but when people who are happy to take a vaccine and trust the scientists ask even a slight question (not because they doubt the scientists, but because we are just genuinely not knowledgeable enough and want to know) getting jumped on and being labelled and anti-vaxxer doesn't help the situation. It stops people asking questions/being convinced and definitely pushes them to the other side - you aren't exactly going to side with people who call you a moron and generally insult you for wanting to know an answer, especially if it's a genuine attempt to understand. Imagine if teachers did that at school
Click to expand...
You get in a car everyday without knowing the safety protocols required for the car to pass to be sold
 
rcoobc said:
You get in a car everyday without knowing the safety protocols required for the car to pass to be sold
Click to expand...

You still ask when you buy a car if there are any problems, check online reviews for safety etc.

This is no different. Asking questions doesn't make you an anti vaxxer. Saying you won't take it because you believe conspiracies or make your question a belief does
 
Wibble said:
It is all very well us saying what should have happened in March/April but do we think the UK should lock-down properly now including closing international borders?

I'd guess that there is zero chance Boris will do this but interested to see what people think.
Click to expand...
I don't think there's any way to close the UK borders for a sustained period of time due to the interconnectedness of Europe and the practicalities of our supply chains.
 
NYAS said:
Most of them are PhD students :nervous:
Click to expand...
No chance they’re studying to be doctors of medicine though, let’s be honest. The ones in the know are the only cnuts we should listen to and not made up/misinformed bollocks from anyone whether it’s yer da the brickie or someone with a childcare studies doctorate.

And the people in the know are the ones slaving away in hospitals, making videos pleading with people to take it seriously and are mind blown about the stupidity of people regarding a simple vaccine just to get called paid actors. It’s fecking embarrassing, hilarious and depressing at the same time.

The % of idiotic conspiracy theorists in even the UK and USA alone is probably* way higher than any other country, especially the Far East, and it’ll show. They’ll be responsible for many more deaths.

*I don’t make bold claims without a source
 
Last edited:
Kag said:
On a more positive note, I shopped within a busy city centre yesterday and compliance with the regulations was generally fantastic. It usually is, whether I am shopping in the supermarket, interacting with parents of the pupils I teach, or simply walking along a narrow path: people regularly demonstrate good manners and behave in a civilised way by allowing others past.

In truth, it’s a little tedious having to read (and listen to elsewhere) the same monotonous dribble re. widespread lack of compliance. Hear me out. Some people have an irritating (and frankly unhealthy) habit of using a handful of incidents they disapprove of as a stick to beat an entire populace with. You’re going to get the odd idiot. You’re going to get quite a few. But unless you’re living in Mordor, you should be able to pull your head out of your own arse to realise that most people are inherently decent and are trying hard (in their own awkward way) to follow the guidance as best as possible. Just look around and highlight the overwhelming number of good folk, for goodness sake. And yes, some people are going to make mistakes. It happens. If you spend your entire day looking for reasons to be angry then you’re probably going to feel that way: perhaps this might ring a few bells for some of the resident oddball ‘I-hope-they-become-seriously-unwell’ types we encounter throughout these threads...
Click to expand...

It should be noted that what qualifies as “fantastic” compliance is very subjective. Your view isn’t one you should expect everyone to align with. Wearing a mask is piss easy. It’s something we should expect everyone to do, all the time. They have that expectation in many Asian societies in less severe situations because they know it is easy and requires such a small sacrifice.

It is because our expectations as a society are lower that we perform worse on some of these key elements, which clearly make disease control more difficult. Most people can wear their mask most of the time they’re supposed to and everyone can feel like they’re doing fantastically well. Big Sam can get a thumbs up for at least trying to wear a mask, even though the way he wore it is more dangerous than helpful.
 
LARulz said:
You still ask when you buy a car if there are any problems, check online reviews for safety etc.

This is no different. Asking questions doesn't make you an anti vaxxer. Saying you won't take it because you believe conspiracies or make your question a belief does
Click to expand...
True.

What we need is a safety rating for vaccines.

Pfizer-Biontech - 4* (not suitable for those with severe allergic reactions)
Oxford-Astrazeneca - TBC (expected 5*)
Moderna - TBC (expected 4*, not suitable for those with severe allergic reactions, approved in the US)
 
calodo2003 said:
Government’s fault, plain as day...

fa5M8qjDUe.jpeg
Click to expand...
Yeah says it all, fecking governments
 
MikeUpNorth said:
I don't think there's any way to close the UK borders for a sustained period of time due to the interconnectedness of Europe and the practicalities of our supply chains.
Click to expand...
Its a real difficulty, I think if I remember right huge amounts of fresh produce arrive from Holland to supply your supermarkets each day.
 
rcoobc said:
True.

What we need is a safety rating for vaccines.

Pfizer-Biontech - 4* (not suitable for those with severe allergic reactions)
Oxford-Astrazeneca - TBC (expected 5*)
Moderna - TBC (expected 4*, not suitable for those with severe allergic reactions, approved in the US)
Click to expand...

I agree. I know people will say it shouldn't be needed but the fact these things are even questions shows it does. So many people are afraid of asking questions because it will come across wrong or will get jumped on - I am sure if 100 people were asked to write down questions there would many that overlap.

As stupid as it sounds, I wish there was a website (or hope there is) that has a list of all the vaccines and general questions answered. And like you say, when it is safe/not safe for you to take one (obviously a doctor should be asked though)

I just find it odd people are being treated harshly for having a slight concern/wanting to ask a question. It naturally puts people on the defensive and far less likely to agree with you if you just insult them. You can always tell when a question is from someone just concerned or an anti-vaxer, they are not framed the same way.
 
LARulz said:
Yep to both sides - especially as we know 'long COVID' seems to vary in people (at least I think so anyway). We are all educated people who are relatively successful in our fields of work, but none of us are scientists. So for us, I think in part with our age/life stage, we all immediately thought what if it impacts our ability to have kids (it's a general concern we would have but ramped up a bit due to all this)

We would all take the vaccine as needed, but that doesn't make it illogical to have slight concerns. It could be jumping onto a massive bouncy castle with pillows as high as Big Ben surrounding it so you are guaranteed a soft landing, but that doesn't mean you wouldn't have a slight concern naturally (or for some people).

Not you necessarily, but when people who are happy to take a vaccine and trust the scientists ask even a slight question (not because they doubt the scientists, but because we are just genuinely not knowledgeable enough and want to know) getting jumped on and being labelled and anti-vaxxer doesn't help the situation. It stops people asking questions/being convinced and definitely pushes them to the other side - you aren't exactly going to side with people who call you a moron and generally insult you for wanting to know an answer, especially if it's a genuine attempt to understand. Imagine if teachers did that at school
Click to expand...

I hope I got my point across that I do understand the questions/concerns. I just find it interesting the way people seem less inclined to have the same questions/concerns about the vaccine alternative i.e. eventually catching covid. At the end of the day, any adverse consequences of the vaccine will be due to the response of your immune system to a novel antigen. Which is exactly the same process that everyone who catches the virus goes through (with added risk of imminent ICU admission/death etc)
 
Stack said:
Its a real difficulty, I think if I remember right huge amounts of fresh produce arrive from Holland to supply your supermarkets each day.
Click to expand...
Yes, we're reliant on a huge number of trucks passing through Dover-Calais (and other crossings) each day. Not just the UK either - Ireland is hugely reliant on trucks going across the UK 'land bridge' too.
 
Relevated said:
No chance you can say excess deaths and use that. The figure won't be the same each year, so that's not a good stat. Its fear mongering.
Click to expand...
That's not true, actually. Because they're compared against averages.

"Excess" deaths are the difference between the deaths seen this year (the height of the shaded area in the chart above) and the average over the previous five years for the same weeks (shown by the dashed line).
Click to expand...
 
MikeUpNorth said:
Yes, we're reliant on a huge number of trucks passing through Dover-Calais (and other crossings) each day. Not just the UK either - Ireland is hugely reliant on trucks going across the UK 'land bridge' too.
Click to expand...

Fecking tell me about it. Santa had some explaining to do in my house after the poxy UK variant caused a go slow on a bunch of presents.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I hope I got my point across that I do understand the questions/concerns. I just find it interesting the way people seem less inclined to have the same questions/concerns about the vaccine alternative i.e. eventually catching covid. At the end of the day, any adverse consequences of the vaccine will be due to the response of your immune system to a novel antigen. Which is exactly the same process that everyone who catches the virus goes through (with added risk of imminent ICU admission/death etc)
Click to expand...

Yeah don't worry, I got your point, sorry if it came across I didn't or thought you were 'attacking me'. And you're right, I do think that many people don't think of the alternative - but I think it's because, especially in this case, people have got into their mind COVID is 'just' the flu so would take that chance

I think my main point is more that I've seen so many situations where people get shouted down for asking legitimate questions (legitimate in the sense they are curious to learn/understand). I genuinely believe this type of 'debating' has what helped lead to things like Brexit, Trump etc. People get very much forced into a corner and then stuck there because the side they were happy to join, demeaned them for even asking questions to understand a topic better.
 
Carolina Red said:
Yep. Fingers crossed. I just want her to have some peace of mind. I know it’ll have to be a massive weight off her shoulders because I almost caught some dust in my eye this morning when she sent me the pic of her about to get the injection.
Click to expand...
Congrats!! I wish you and your wife all the best. Stay safe!!

FireballXL5 said:
Wtf?

Covid: Sydney beach party sparks UK backpacker deportation threats

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-55471235
Click to expand...
Oh FFS, it's just one after another. This makes it how many incidents with UK tourists overseas this year?
 
Stack said:
Its a real difficulty, I think if I remember right huge amounts of fresh produce arrive from Holland to supply your supermarkets each day.
Click to expand...

Rungis wholesale market is where supermarkets generally get their supplies from.
 
So are schools gonna open or not... because as a parent and somebody who runs a business its getting pretty difficult to plan even a week ahead
The communications throughout covid have been pretty shambolic
 
MikeUpNorth said:
I don't think there's any way to close the UK borders for a sustained period of time due to the interconnectedness of Europe and the practicalities of our supply chains.
Click to expand...

We closed international borders without stopping freight. However, we don't depend on truck traffic for imports.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.