Your analogy would be close if you said Britain returned Scotland to the Scottish but first driving 20% of the population into 4% of the land then giving them independence whilst retaining control over the rest of their land
Scores die in Israeli air strikes
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Why is there a need for analogy at all?? The situation is not that complicated, Israel screwed them over, it's plain to see.
Because most people are lurching to polarised views such as the one you are espousing above.
Sometimes, a polarizing view is the only just view.
We should all try to have fair views, not balanced.
Hamas claims 80 Israelies were killed during the war. 
Those people aren't terrorists, really. They're just loonies.
Those people aren't terrorists, really. They're just loonies.
Hamas are loonies and are obviously talking bollocks, but I also think more than 13 Isralei soldiers were killed. Both sides lying for propaganda reasons.
Its like when the IDF tried to cover up the Hezbollah attack on that Israeli warship, and when half a dozen merkava tanks were destroyed in the first day of the 2006 conflict
Its like when the IDF tried to cover up the Hezbollah attack on that Israeli warship, and when half a dozen merkava tanks were destroyed in the first day of the 2006 conflict
Hamas are loonies and are obviously talking bollocks, but I also think more than 13 Isralei soldiers were killed. Both sides lying for propaganda reasons.
Its like when the IDF tried to cover up the Hezbollah attack on that Israeli warship, and when half a dozen merkava tanks were destroyed in the first day of the 2006 conflict
It's actually only 10 soldiers. The other three were Israeli civilians. Sounds plausible, the IDF wasn't involved in too much heavy fighting, they had continuous air support, they were extra careful (learning their lesson from 2006), and also they neutralized hundreds of Hamas before they even entered with the ground troops..
I agree with you, I dont think Israel lost that many soldiers but again I think 10 is too low a figure. Its the same in Iraq, I think the Americans have lost many more soldiers than they publicise - it was decades after the Vietnam war when It was revealed that the US army had casualties numbering almost 60,000 deaths.
Its how propaganda works, all sides exaggerate: Hamas is hardly going to admit they've killed next to nothing IDF soldiers since it'll make the whole conflict a waste and will make them look really stupid and responsible for the Gazan massacre infront of their people. On the other hand the Israelis arent going to admit that they've lost too many soldiers since its so close to national elections.
Its how propaganda works, all sides exaggerate: Hamas is hardly going to admit they've killed next to nothing IDF soldiers since it'll make the whole conflict a waste and will make them look really stupid and responsible for the Gazan massacre infront of their people. On the other hand the Israelis arent going to admit that they've lost too many soldiers since its so close to national elections.
Scale of Gaza destruction emerges
Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7836869.stm
More than 1,300 Palestinians killed : 13 Israeli deaths
More than 4,000 buildings destroyed in Gaza, more than 20,000 severely damaged
Tens of thousands of Gazans homeless
The full scale of devastation in Gaza following Israel's three-week offensive is becoming clear, after both Israel and Hamas declared ceasefires.
UN official John Ging said half a million people had been without water since the conflict began, and huge numbers of people were without power.
Four thousand homes are ruined and tens of thousands of people are homeless.
Israeli spokesman Mark Regev said he expected border crossings to open for aid later on Monday.
Israeli PM Ehud Olmert said he wanted troops to leave as quickly as possible, and some have already left.
Israel called a ceasefire on Saturday, saying it had met its war aims.
Mr Ging, director of operations for the UN agency for Palestinian refugees (Unrwa), said most important was how to get basic supplies into Gaza.
"We have a big recovery operation ahead of us, reconstruction - none of it will be possible of course, on any scale, until we get crossing points open," he told the BBC.
Unrwa was keen to reopen its schools, Mr Ging said, where 50,000 people were sheltering. Tens of thousands have been made homeless by the bombardment.
Big questions remain, our correspondent says, such as who will police Gaza's southern border and how much power Hamas still has.
At least 1,300 Palestinians, according to Palestinian sources, and 13 Israelis have been killed since Israel launched its offensive on 27 December. Palestinian medical sources say at least 95 bodies have been pulled from the rubble since Israel halted its offensive.
Correspondents say the ceasefire in Gaza remains fragile, although no air strikes, rocket attacks or major clashes were reported overnight.
Palestinian militants fired about 20 rockets over the border after the Israeli ceasefire announcement, and Israel responded with an air attack.
Surrounded by an array of European political leaders, some of whom were highly critical of Israel's tactics in the conflict with Hamas, the Israeli prime minister said his country was not interested in staying in the Gaza Strip.
Anonymous Israeli officials, quoted by AP news agency, said the withdrawal would be completed before US President-elect Barack Obama's inauguration on Tuesday.
Correspondents say Israeli leaders want to get off to a smooth start with the new administration in Washington.
The European leaders had travelled to Israel to lend their support to the ceasefires.
The top Hamas leader in Gaza, Ismail Haniya, said Israel had "failed to achieve its goals".
In a speech broadcast on Hamas TV station, he said: "God has granted us a great victory, not for one faction, or party, or area, but for our entire people."
Hamas said it would hold fire for a week to give Israel time to withdraw its forces from the Gaza Strip
Hamas are loonies and are obviously talking bollocks, but I also think more than 13 Isralei soldiers were killed. Both sides lying for propaganda reasons.
Its like when the IDF tried to cover up the Hezbollah attack on that Israeli warship, and when half a dozen merkava tanks were destroyed in the first day of the 2006 conflict
I don't think you understand the nature of democracies. If any more soldiers have been killed than the IDF has named, their friends and families will notice pretty soon that they haven't come home or even rung. They're going to ask why, and why they haven't had a proper funeral with their families in attendance. If they don't get an answer, they'll ask Ha'aretz to ask why. Pretty soon everyone will be asking why, there'll be a huge outcry and eventually Ehud Barak has to resign. That's why they don't make shit up about how many soldiers are killed in a democracy, especially one where every soldier's death or capture is a national obsession.
Thats a flawed logic - its too early to determine casualties yet. Some families havent heard from their IDF relatives since the beginning of the conflict, some dont even have families to speak of. You cant seriously come to this judgement so soon. And its not like all the families of those perished will come together and start doing the maths finding the holes in these figures.
Hamas claims 80 Israelies were killed during the war.
Those people aren't terrorists, really. They're just loonies.
Hamas are loonies and are obviously talking bollocks, but I also think more than 13 Isralei soldiers were killed. Both sides lying for propaganda reasons.
Its like when the IDF tried to cover up the Hezbollah attack on that Israeli warship, and when half a dozen merkava tanks were destroyed in the first day of the 2006 conflict
both of your responses pretty much captures your attitude and gives an insight into the depravity of your own moral compasses. People have died. Your own people have died. And you laugh as though its like some kind of football score.
Sad really.
I wasnt laughing at deaths, I was ridiculing the silly cloaking propaganda efforts. And what do you mean my people
?The voted Hamas because they were sick of Fatah, who were also no slouches when it came to blowing up Israelis.
ie they voted in Hamas because the previous Palestinian leaders were shit.
Unfortunately it doesn't look like the new bunch are any wiser.
Fair enough, but does that justify the killing of Palestinian civilians as some people here are suggesting it does?
I wasnt laughing at deaths, I was ridiculing the silly cloaking propaganda efforts. And what do you mean my people
You gave Sammsky a perfect chance to demonstrate his sanctimoniousness, which obviously he took with both hands.
Hamas basically owns the people who voted for them. They represent the juristic/legislative/executive power and as such are free to use any property or facility in the whole area for their purposes, people can simply disappear and property can be seized at will. Something like an enormous mafia-clan, driving around in jeeps, masked and fully armed, intimidating. And you better don't complain. No wonder even some Palestinians say they've brought this disaster over themselves.
My analogy can be answered in the present which is where we live. Yours requires a time machine to address/solve it in the Palestinian/Israeli context.
I think you need to try to understand that the aim was never "the killing of Palestinian civilians".
Absolutely, fear and intimidation isnt the right way to go about governance. But if Israel wanted to isolate Hamas then what they're doing at the moment is only firing up their support I reckon - Hezbollah became more popular after the 2006 Lebanon war.
I was referring to comments from people like WeWonItTwoTimes who claim that the innocent Palestinians brought this death and destruction upon themselves, im not questioning Israel's incentives but I have my own theories on that.
We don't do things like that, PERIOD. If we say 10 soldiers were killed, then 10 soldiers were killed. PERIOD. No maybes, no ifs, no possiblies. PERIOD.
Gaza covers 4% of the occupied territories, not 4% of Israel and the occupied lands, your analogy was shit
Ok Ms Livni, i'll take your word for it, PERIOD.
I'm not Livni, I'm not Olmert, I'm not Barak and I'm happy not to be Netanyahu. I don't know what sort of country you live in, but we do not hide our casualty figures. If there's one thing I know about my country, it is that we don't have a 'hidden death figure'.
Im from the UK mate, they tend to hide figures here too I reckon. If not they release death confirmations very late though.
Maybe big countries can do that, I don't know. We don't. I mean, what would be the idea? We announce tomorrow that, say, ten more soldiers were killed during, err, ceasefire?
Naa, we don't.Ok ill take your word for it, Im not trying to stir up hostilities here. I just have my doubts.
Abit off topic but:
I fecking would..
I fecking would..
80% of palestine is Jordan.
And gaza isn't occupied - and when it was where was the calls for Egypt to get out????????
On a purely military standpoint, Hamas fighters are a disgrace.
So much for Gaza being an IDF graveyard.
They just didn't bother and kept hiding. Live to fight another day? It's hardly as if they'll ever have really good conditions. They'll always have the lesser weapons and all that.
Oh you haven't heard yet? Hamas is giving one week for IDF forces to pull out before they lead their army to another heavenly victory.
The ridiculous Hamas rhetoric is hardly a reason for satisfaction. The ME equivalen of Monty Python's black knight is going to hinder any chance for peace in the region.
Ordinary Palestinians will suffer more than anyone else, but still as long as Hamas and Iran aren't dealt with there's less than a slim chance for breakthrough.
Iran?
To be fair to him, the mission was accomplished. They won the war, just forgot about managing the peace.
What mission...the WMDs he was raving about? Oh wait no theyre probably in Iran now
The toppling of Saddam. That mission.
Come to think of it that mission was a success, as was the real reasoning behind the Iraqi invasion