Scores die in Israeli air strikes

[Nucks]

Yes, great victory for Israel in 2006 - their objective was to invade south lebanon and topple Hezbollah. They managed to advance a few miles, lose too many men then pulled back. Ontop of that Hezbollah emerged as being more popular and stronger today. Those 2 prisoners they captured were recently returned in bodybags in exchange for 200 Hezbollah fighters.

Unless by victory you mean by how many Civilians are killed, then yes the Israelis won that battle again with an impressive 1100 Lebanese civilians dead.

The head of Hezbollah publicly came out and said that the snatch was a mistake. I'm not sure exactly what you think happened in Lebanon. I'll give you a clue.

Israel went in, and destroyed infrastructure and smashed the Hezbollah resistance.

They advanced as far as they wanted and then they stopped and held their positions (this was the mistaken). Due to the fact Israel advanced as fast as they did, they had not reduced/cleared every enemy position. Hezbollah then began launching RPG attacks against the stationary Merkava MBT's. Very few soldiers were lost in these attacks, but Israel was losing tanks at an alarming rate. It is worth noting the majority of these tanks were mobility kills.

Without the Merk's to screen infantry Israel was unable to continue to hold their positions. So they withdrew.

In terms of who lost what, Israel lost virtually nothing. Hezbollah maybe wasn't destroyed, but it was brutalized.

 

[Chris H]

Israel went in, and destroyed infrastructure and smashed the Hezbollah resistance.

From what I've read, that's just not true. Israel went in with the stated goal of wiping Hezbollah out, and permanently stopping the rocket attacks. But they badly underestimated their enemy, who surprised them with new weapons, new tactics, and new capabilities for which the IDF was ill-prepared. Hezbollah is also thought to have intercepted Israeli communications, and Hezbollah's own communcation and central command structure remained intact throughout - even after the IDF had damaged enough infrastructure that they assumed Hezbollah would no longer be able to centrally coordinate attacks. Hezbollah's resistance was far stronger than anticipated, and when Israel realized they would not be able to completely snuff Hezbollah out, they withdrew.

This is what I've read, anyway. What's certain is that throughout the region, the reputation of and respect for Hezbollah went up, while respect for and fear of the IDF declined. This was due at least in part to the fact that the IDF lost the media war - an area in which Hezbollah was also more skilled than had been expected.

Preparation and planning for the incursion into Gaza took months, in order to assure that objectives were clear, and personnel ready for the tasks they were assigned. A great deal of time was spent training soldiers for urban warfare at at a new training center which simiulated urban combat. The stated goals of the mission were far less ambitious than they had been in Lebanon - merely to reduce the number of rocket attacks, and change for the better Israel's security situation in the south. Access of reporters was extremely limitied so that the IDF had better control of what information was emerging from Gaza. Among other things, the IDF now has a freaking youtube channel, on which Israeli spokespersons gave their interpretation of events throughout the conflict.

Israel doesn't expect to come out looking good in the Arab press. They know they look bad there whatever they do, and they don't care. But they do care about the Israeli public and the American public, and for these audiences, the IDF was much more skillful than they had previously been at creating a positive impression of their actions. I could write more, but I have to go now. Anyway, just a few points from an old war.

 

[McLovin]

Having been there when Israel came in, I can safely say Hezbollah's resistance was nowhere near smashed as most of their infrastructure is under ground anyway.

The only things that were heavily brutalized during that war were the major lines of transportation in Lebanon, and also the Dahiaa part of Beirut which is, yes, predominantly Shia and very much pro Hizobollah.

 

[atom smasher]

Ahem. Source.

Civility, after all.

Media coverage of Operation Cast Lead is fair and accurate.

FACT

Israel has learned that its enemies will do everything they can to manipulate the media to influence public opinion during conflicts such as the one going on in the Gaza Strip

I liked this one the best. I read only that bit to understand what an unbiased view the author is providing. Most of it is bullshit.

FACT Over 1000 people have been killed 400+ among them being children.

FACT Israel have committed war crimes and have broken human rights laws in Gaza.

FACT Israel has total disregard for human life.

 

[Chris H]

All sides in this conflict do everything they can to influence public opinion. Hezbollah has fecking press officers, for god's sake. Israel, Hamas, Iran, Hezbollah and all other interested parties know that controlling how people perceive this conflict is essential to realizing their long-term goals. And that means finessing the media, if not outright lying.

As for my post that you cited above, I was merely suggesting to the author of a previous post that he cite his sources when borrowing large chunks of text. It's easy to forget to do, but I think it's good for us to be able to immediately distinguish between a poster's words and those of a journalist with whom he agrees.

 

[holyland red]

the attack was going to happen sooner or later and you know it...i agree with you about the whole child killer thing and the celebrations...

Attacks on Israel are a given. Unfortunately, the Arabs (or those dictating their lives) can't come to terms with the existence of Israel. What many refer to as "disproportionate responses" can only change the rate of those attacks but not change the fundamental fact that our neighbours are not very friendly to us. Either they want us out, or their dictators need us as an enemy to divert their peoples' focus from the the atrocious conditions they have to endure at home.

 

[Kaos]

What a disgusting human being you must be to revel in the killing of two Israelis in an unprovoked attack in Israeli territory, returning them in bodybags in exchange for prisoners. Just to let you know, Israel returned 5 men for the bodies of our two soldiers whose bodies were snatched. Among them was a child killer who had served 30 years in prison already in Israel. The celebrations that followed his release are a shame on Arab society, and though it fecking hurts on our side, it is aslo an indication of how backwards Arab society is compared to Western standards.

Unfortunately, feeling pleased at the occasional blow we take makes you blind to the fact that fundamentalism keeps your societies light years behind the Israeli and Western society. You are welcome to support fundamentalism in Arab societies, condemning your own to life under those religious nutters while you enjoy the benefits of Western life (I assume).

Finally, please keep in mind the price tag for "returning our soldiers in bodybags". We give 200 in return to 2 bodies, which is quite disproportionate you'd have to agree. Try not to be too fecking melodramatic when we disproportionatly kill 600 when your favourite Arabs kill 3 of our won. You seem to dictate the exchange rate here.

It's funny how when 1000s of civilians die it's ok since Israel is defending itself, but when 2 Israeli SOLDIERS die, it suddenly becomes a tragedy. By the way I'm not rejoicing at those Israeli soldiers deaths, I'm using them as an example to emphasize the failure of Israel's assault in 2006. I also have no idea what you were trying to spew out regarding 'my society'. I have no link to the middle east and I'm English so I don't know what point you were trying to make besides stereotyping all Arabs as backward.

 

[holyland red]

It's funny how when 1000s of civilians die it's ok since Israel is defending itself, but when 2 Israeli SOLDIERS die, it suddenly becomes a tragedy. By the way I'm not rejoicing at those Israeli soldiers deaths, I'm using them as an example to emphasize the failure of Israel's assault in 2006. I also have no idea what you were trying to spew out regarding 'my society'. I have no link to the middle east and I'm English so I don't know what point you were trying to make besides stereotyping all Arabs as backward.

Arab societies are backward, at the Arabs own admission.

Those Israeli SOLDIERS you mocked were reservists, Israeli citizens who serve their country for about a month a year until they're 40ish. They were patrolling the border on our territory, and I don't understand how that makes them legitimate targets in your view. These are also not mercenaries, but people who have to take a break from Uni/business/family to make sure that my kids among others don't suffer the same fate as Anat Haran, the 4-year old whose skull was smashed on a rock by that Lebanese hero that Hezbollah managed to release as a result of its "victory".

No wonder that your favourite news channel "Al-Jazeera" celebrated the child-murderer's birthday with a special show soon after his release. I bet it was through that channel that you learnt about "1000's of civilian deaths". These figures are more relevant to what you've caused in Iraq than to any recent ME conflict.

I'm not going to argue who won and who didn't either in 2006 or this time in Gaza. I just hope that it''s clear enough that Israel is going to respond to attacks on its territory "dispropotionationally". We're not going to have peace here anytime soon, so we better make clear what the price tag is for attacking our country.

 

[topper]

Arab societies are backward, at the Arabs own admission.

Those Israeli SOLDIERS you mocked were reservists, Israeli citizens who serve their country for about a month a year until they're 40ish. They were patrolling the border on our territory, and I don't understand how that makes them legitimate targets in your view. These are also not mercenaries, but people who have to take a break from Uni/business/family to make sure that my kids among others don't suffer the same fate as Anat Haran, the 4-year old whose skull was smashed on a rock by that Lebanese hero that Hezbollah managed to release as a result of its "victory".

No wonder that your favourite news channel "Al-Jazeera" celebrated the child-murderer's birthday with a special show soon after his release. I bet it was through that channel that you learnt about "1000's of civilian deaths". These figures are more relevant to what you've caused in Iraq than to any recent ME conflict.

I'm not going to argue who won and who didn't either in 2006 or this time in Gaza. I just hope that it''s clear enough that Israel is going to respond to attacks on its territory "dispropotionationally". We're not going to have peace here anytime soon, so we better make clear what the price tag is for attacking our country.[/QUOTE]



I,m much less an admirer of Israel than I used to be for what has happened but I do see where you´re coming from on this. Would I trust my self my family and my country to the lot you´re fighting - not in a month of Sunday´s

 

[Fearless]

I liked this one the best. I read only that bit to understand what an unbiased view the author is providing. Most of it is bullshit.

FACT Over 1000 people have been killed 400+ among them being children.

FACT Israel have committed war crimes and have broken human rights laws in Gaza.

FACT Israel has total disregard for human life.

Just because you like to use upper case and bold doesn't make anything fact.

 

[Amir]

This list of 'facts' is nearly as funny as Rafa's 'Fachts'.

 

[holyland red]

I,m much less an admirer of Israel than I used to be for what has happened but I do see where you´re coming from on this. Would I trust my self my family and my country to the lot you´re fighting - not in a month of Sunday´s

We've lost quite a few admirers lately, which isn't very pleasant. Having said that, given the choice I'm sure every Israeli would rather lose an internet admirer than a relative, a friend or a neighbour. fecks sake, believe it or not but we actually feel for ordinary fellow citizens whose kids have to grow up knowing they only have 15 seconds to run for cover when they hear the warnings. I'm afraid it's as simple as that.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

I live here but that's about it.

HR used to live here too. now it all makes sense

hehehe, that's called guilt by association.

 

[McLovin]

Arab societies are backward, at the Arabs own admission.

I did not understand how a large number of Lebanese were indeed so cheerful that a murderer was coming back to our country, but to say, categorically, that Arab societies are backward is just way off target.

 

[Fearless]

I did not understand how a large number of Lebanese were indeed so cheerful that a murderer was coming back to our country, but to say, categorically, that Arab societies are backward is just way off target.

But they are.

 

[holyland red]

I did not understand how a large number of Lebanese were indeed so cheerful that a murderer was coming back to our country, but to say, categorically, that Arab societies are backward is just way off target.

The joy at Samir Kuntar's release was not surprising at all, as it reflected the indoctrination for hating Israel which Kuntar is a prime example of.

I didn't mean that Kuntar is representative of the Arab society in general though. I think most Arabs would admit that their societies are far from examplary in terms of civil rights, freedom, women rights etc., not to mention political maturity.

 

[Kaos]

So its fact and not racism that Arabs are backwards? Ok whatever you guys say..

And as for the 'child-murderer' Im assuming you're referring to Samir Kuntar? As far as I know theres two stories, to the Israelis he killed a child with a rifle butt, though there's the Lebanese story which states that the child was caught up in a firefight between the militants and the Israelis. Right now Im refusing to believe either story since each side lies as much as the other.

If you want to talk about child-murdering though then the IDF as well as Hamas are pretty much champions of it judging from recent events.

 

[holyland red]

So its fact and not racism that Arabs are backwards? Ok whatever you guys say..

And as for the 'child-murderer' Im assuming you're referring to Samir Kuntar? As far as I know theres two stories, to the Israelis he killed a child with a rifle butt, though there's the Lebanese story which states that the child was caught up in a firefight between the militants and the Israelis. Right now Im refusing to believe either story since each side lies as much as the other.

If you want to talk about child-murdering though then the IDF are pretty much champions of it judging from recent events.

I'm happy knowing that the Lebanese know the truth. Speaking of being caught in crossfire, this is much more important to the future of our region that what the Tom Hurndalls of this world think.

 

[SecondFig]

The joy at Samir Kuntar's release was not surprising at all, as it reflected the indoctrination for hating Israel which Kuntar is a prime example of.

I didn't mean that Kuntar is representative of the Arab society in general though. I think most Arabs would admit that their societies are far from examplary in terms of civil rights, freedom, women rights etc., not to mention political maturity.

You realise that Israel, by killing hundreds of innocent civilians in indiscriminate air raids, is at the forefront of indoctrinating generations of Arabs in the hatred of Israel. That is not to excuse anti-Israeli terrorism - but what they're doing is insignificant compared to the hatred currently felt by the thousands who have lost loved ones in Israel's attack on Gaza

 

[Kaos]

You realise that Israel, by killing hundreds of innocent civilians in indiscriminate air raids, is at the forefront of indoctrinating generations of Arabs in the hatred of Israel. That is not to excuse anti-Israeli terrorism - but what they're doing is insignificant compared to the hatred currently felt by the thousands who have lost loved ones in Israel's attack on Gaza

The idea is that it intimidates them into thinking twice before electing an organisation such as Hamas.

 

[SecondFig]

The idea is that it intimidates them into thinking twice before electing an organisation such as Hamas.

Or drive scores of young men and women into the arms of Hamas as Palestinians look to avenge mothers and fathers, sons and daughters, loved ones and lovers?

It just seems like a ridiculously short term approach...

 

[Kaos]

Or drive scores of young men and women into the arms of Hamas as Palestinians look to avenge mothers and fathers, sons and daughters, loved ones and lovers?

It just seems like a ridiculously short term approach...

Exactly, its a very flawed logic.

 

[topper]

You realise that Israel, by killing hundreds of innocent civilians in indiscriminate air raids, is at the forefront of indoctrinating generations of Arabs in the hatred of Israel. That is not to excuse anti-Israeli terrorism - but what they're doing is insignificant compared to the hatred currently felt by the thousands who have lost loved ones in Israel's attack on Gaza

I think the Arabs are doing enough indoctrinating on their own

 

[Kaos]

I think the Arabs are doing enough indoctrinating on their own

SecondFig just explained the reasons for things like this.

 

[topper]

SecondFig just explained the reasons for things like this.

where ?

 

[Chris H]

And as for the 'child-murderer' Im assuming you're referring to Samir Kuntar? As far as I know theres two stories, to the Israelis he killed a child with a rifle butt, though there's the Lebanese story which states that the child was caught up in a firefight between the militants and the Israelis. Right now Im refusing to believe either story since each side lies as much as the other.

Pathologist's report said she died from blunt-force trauma to the head, and her brain matter was found on the butt of Kuntar's rifle. Kuntar and his group had already killed a policeman that night before kidnapping the Harans. As was already mentioned, he received a hero's welcome back in Lebanon. In addition, al-Jazeera TV held a birthday party for this hero, one they later apologized for, admitting it was a violation of their own code of professional ethics. In their glee at the great man's release, perhaps they just couldn't help themselves.

Sometimes it is not difficult to understand why Israelis are so convinced that their neighbors really do want them all dead. And always have, from the day Israel was founded. And it is for this reason that so many of Israel's supporters around the world are willing to forgive them for almost any action they take.

 

[topper]

Pathologist's report said she died from blunt-force trauma to the head, and her brain matter was found on the butt of Kuntar's rifle. Kuntar and his group had already killed a policeman that night before kidnapping the Harans. As was already mentioned, he received a hero's welcome back in Lebanon. In addition, al-Jazeera TV held a birthday party for this hero, one they later apologized for, admitting it was a violation of their own code of professional ethics. In their glee at the great man's release, perhaps they just couldn't help themselves.

Sometimes it is not difficult to understand why Israelis are so convinced that their neighbors really do want them all dead. And always have, from the day Israel was founded. And it is for this reason that so many of Israel's supporters around the world are willing to forgive them for almost any action they take.

correct

 

[Kaos]

Pathologist's report said she died from blunt-force trauma to the head, and her brain matter was found on the butt of Kuntar's rifle. Kuntar and his group had already killed a policeman that night before kidnapping the Harans. As was already mentioned, he received a hero's welcome back in Lebanon. In addition, al-Jazeera TV held a birthday party for this hero, one they later apologized for, admitting it was a violation of their own code of professional ethics. In their glee at the great man's release, perhaps they just couldn't help themselves.

Sometimes it is not difficult to understand why Israelis are so convinced that their neighbors really do want them all dead. And always have, from the day Israel was founded. And it is for this reason that so many of Israel's supporters around the world are willing to forgive them for almost any action they take.

Though really they want them dead because of what the Israelis have, and are doing to the Palestinians. Hence the huge global support for the Palestinian cause. Occupying Arab lands doesnt exactly make peace an easier process either. (see Hezbollah)

See what the problem is here.

 

[Fearless]

Sometimes it is not difficult to understand why Israelis are so convinced that their neighbors really do want them all dead. And always have, from the day Israel was founded. And it is for this reason that so many of Israel's supporters around the world are willing to forgive them for almost any action they take.

Sometimes?

 

[Kaos]

where ?

Here you go:

You realise that Israel, by killing hundreds of innocent civilians in indiscriminate air raids, is at the forefront of indoctrinating generations of Arabs in the hatred of Israel. That is not to excuse anti-Israeli terrorism - but what they're doing is insignificant compared to the hatred currently felt by the thousands who have lost loved ones in Israel's attack on Gaza

 

[Fearless]

Though really they want them dead because of what the Israelis have done to the Arabs, especially the Palestinians. Hence the huge global support for the Palestinian cause.

See what the problem is here.

You really are an idiot. And a teacher.

 

[Kaos]

You really are an idiot. And a teacher.

Edited the quote abit for people like you to understand. And no Im a Biomedical Scientist.

 

[Fearless]

Edited the quote abit for people like you to understand. And no Im a Biomedical Scientist, why you ask?

Because your refusal to study both the history of the ME and context means you had to be part of the academic institutions who are looking to boycott Israel.

 

[Kaos]

Because your refusal to study both the history of the ME and context means you had to be part of the academic institutions who are looking to boycott Israel.

News Alert! Not every westerner blindly supports Israel in all their actions, nor do they always necessary support their own government's foreign policy.

Look up Robert Fisk, he's one of the most respected British journalists when it comes to foreign affairs.

All non-islamic and non-arabic people must just be anti-semitic then if they condemn Israel's actions.

 

[Chris H]

Though really they want them dead because of what the Israelis have, and are doing to the Palestinians. Hence the huge global support for the Palestinian cause. Occupying Arab lands doesnt exactly make peace an easier process either. (see Hezbollah)

See what the problem is here.

So according to you, they do, in fact, want all Israelis dead. Given that fact, what exactly would you like Israel to do? Move? Apologize? Make concessions? Die?

Seriously now. What would be the ethical thing for them to do, in your opinion? I am curious.

 

[Kaos]

So according to you, they do, in fact, want all Israelis dead. Given that fact, what exactly would you like Israel to do? Move? Apologize? Make concessions? Die?

Seriously now. What would be the ethical thing for them to do, in your opinion? I am curious.

I was referring to those who do wish to see Israel dead, not the entire Arab nation.

Stop the blockading and starving of Gaza and let foreign aid would be a good short-term goal. Moving on to giving the Palestinians an economically viable state without Israeli interference would be a sound long-term strategy. Giving the neighbouring Arabs their occupied lands back would also be a sensible move on behalf of the Israelis if they wish to dilute and reduce the hatred towards them and stop interfering in their politics. (remember Lebanon 1982) Thats what I would do.

 

[Chris H]

[re:Cast Lead in Gaza] Or drive scores of young men and women into the arms of Hamas as Palestinians look to avenge mothers and fathers, sons and daughters, loved ones and lovers?

It just seems like a ridiculously short term approach...

You say that it drives Palestinians to vengeance as though Palestinians were previously content to live in peace and harmony with Israel, and had no interest in taking up arms, or strapping explosives to their chests. Or to the chests of their children. That would be a gross mischaracterization.

Short of murdering every last citizen of Gaza, there is very little Israel could do to make their enemies hate them even more, or to create more enemies amongst the population of the Middle East. Given that fahct (I'm calling fahct anyway, but others might disagree) (I just like saying fahct, lihkke), Israel's actions generally become more understandable, even if one does not find them excusable.

 

[Kaos]

Here's a question I myself want to ask the Pro-Israel brigade.

Why do you think they hate the Israelis?

 

[Cali Red]

Here's a question I myself want to ask the Pro-Israel brigade.

Why do you think they hate the Israelis?

Easy, because they exist. (If by they you mean Hamas).

 

[Chris H]

I was referring to those who do wish to see Israel dead, not the entire Arab nation.

Stop the blockading and starving of Gaza and let foreign aid would be a good short-term goal. Moving on to giving the Palestinians an economically viable state without Israeli interference would be a sound long-term strategy. Giving the neighbouring Arabs their occupied lands back would also be a sensible move on behalf of the Israelis if they wish to dilute and reduce the hatred towards them and stop interfering in their politics. (remember Lebanon 1982) Thats what I would do.

Reasonable answer. Please know though that I don't think (and I don't think that you think) that every last Arab wants every last Israeli dead. Many Arabs can live with Israel, they just want it to behave differently. But there are undeniably many who do want Israelis dead, and they are very influential, both politically and (especially) ideologically, and are armed to the teeth. Israel's Cast Lead operation has been criticized on the grounds that 1000 or so Palestinians died, but only a handful of Israelis, and this in response to rocket attacks that killed only a few more Israelis. This is seen by some as evidence of Israel's greater bloodthirst, or at the very least greater cruelty.

One could argue though that the larger factor in the uneven death tolls is simply the imbalance in military power. Namely, if Hamas had the ability to kill more Israelis, they would do so. And if they had the military that Israel has, it would take about a week before they killed every last Jew in the Middle East. I exaggerate perhaps, but not by much.