Shamima Begum, IS teen wants to come back to the UK

maniak said:
Yeah but how volatile is the situation over there? We see towns being won and lost several times, who knows if ISIS won't have her in the near future. I'd be very careful about what I'd say if I was there. Especially knowing that my face would be all over western media. Maybe she's actually loyal to ISIS, I don't know, but either way that can be changed in prison/rehabilitation. If she maintained her loyalty after years in the UK then she would be considered a danger to national security and kept in prison.

I don't see her words as a good reason to abandon her.
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You realise she didn’t have to say shit, right? She could have just not spoken to the press. She chose to speak to the press, while in a refugee camp controlled by SDF and the only bad thing she could say for ISIS is that they are losing.

I mean you can choose to believe whatever you want to believe, ultimately. I from my side think there’s more chance that vaccines cause autism, earth is flat and chemtrails are a real thing, than her having genuinely repented and saying these things just for show.
 
berbatrick said:
Is there any reason they can't be jailed for a long term after they return? There surely must be provisions about being a member of a recognised terrorist group?
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I think the problem for a lot of people is that the crimes they could realistically be convicted of will not produce the kind of sentences that they probably deserve.
 
MadMike said:
You realise she didn’t have to say shit, right? She could have just not spoken to the press. She chose to speak to the press, while in a refugee camp controlled by SDF and the only bad thing she could say for ISIS is that they are losing.

I mean you can choose to believe whatever you want to believe, ultimately. I from my side think there’s more chance that vaccines cause autism, earth is flat and chemtrails are a real thing, than her having genuinely repented and saying these things just for show.
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That's fair enough and I assumed that as a possibility (in fact it's very likely the case), but I stand by my final sentence.
 
I would just eliminate all the moral and justice arguments for either side here and judge it on people's safety.

She might be safer back in England and want to return for genuine reasons, but it'd be impossible to prove she doesn't pose a significant risk to other people's safety if she was allowed back to England as a free citizen, and it'd also be near impossible to guarantee her own safety. She might be less at risk but she'd still have a big target on her.
 
VeevaVee said:
She supported IS specifically though. She was every bit part of IS no? Presumably just without killing anyone. Those like her certainly made it more appealing to others to be a part of it. Essentially abetting murder really isn't it?
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Does that mean that all American and Britons are guilty of war crimes?
 
There are people who like the idea of an Islamic Caliphate in the same way there are people who like the idea of Western Democracy. None of them are guilty of war crime uless they actively choose to take part in them.
 
I'd argue that if she was allowed back in under strict conditions, that it would cause major damage to the IS narrative. Our society values of rehabilitation, inclusiveness, respect, community, freedom, opportunity, progress; regardless of sex colour or religion - this is our nuclear bomb to that fecking disease.

Muslims are part of western identity, not in conflict with it. This must be the message.
 
Siorac said:
It's not like ISIS were shy and secretive about HOW they want to bring about the Caliphate.

And she herself says that seeing heads casually thrown in the bins did not faze her because it was an "enemy of Islam". And she admits she has no regrets and the ONLY reason she wants to come back is the child.

The baby is of course innocent in all this and that makes it more complicated. But if not for the baby, I don't think I'd blame the UK government if they just stripped her of her citizenship and refused to let her back in.
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Siorac said:
It's not like ISIS were shy and secretive about HOW they want to bring about the Caliphate.

And she herself says that seeing heads casually thrown in the bins did not faze her because it was an "enemy of Islam". And she admits she has no regrets and the ONLY reason she wants to come back is the child.

The baby is of course innocent in all this and that makes it more complicated. But if not for the baby, I don't think I'd blame the UK government if they just stripped her of her citizenship and refused to let her back in.
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Where has she said that? Have you made it up to justify your own prejudice?
 
Eboue said:
galaxy brain
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Guilt of any crime is an active choice, not by association. That

I could make a slew of indepently verified accusations about American miscoduct in the last few years. That doesn''t make you an evil serial murderer bt association.
 
Dante said:
Guilt of any crime is an active choice, not by association. That

I could make a slew of indepently verified accusations about American miscoduct in the last few years. That doesn''t make you an evil serial murderer bt association.
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you equated western democracy to an islamic caliphate buddy. maybe its time to take a step back
 
Assume as little as possible, and take all your preconceptions to be awaiting verification.
 
VeevaVee said:
Joined a terrorist organisation?
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Someone could argue you being a citizen with voting rights who instil governments that go on to murder thousands with drones also part of a terrorist organisation.

Levels.

Look, let's all grow the feck up and take responsibility. Allow the blame game, we need love and healing. Not to sound like a hippie but yeah lolz
 
iluvoursolskjær said:
Someone could argue you being a citizen with voting rights who instil governments that go on to murder thousands with drones also part of a terrorist organisation.

Levels.

Look, let's all grow the feck up and take responsibility. Allow the blame game, we need love and healing. Not to sound like a hippie but yeah lolz
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I didn't vote for the governments that have done that though?
 
VeevaVee said:
Terrorism is a crime isn't it? She joined a criminal organisation and there's a good chance she knew of and possibly lived with murderers.
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You're not considering indoctrination of people's perceptions, and how when rhey are warped through propoganda, one would be shocked what people can be capable of.

People are products of their environments. Clever people like us can distinguish information apart, not everyone was born with that privilege/capacity.
 
iluvoursolskjær said:
You're not considering indoctrination of people's perceptions, and how when rhey are warped through propoganda, one would be shocked what people can be capable of.
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I do understand it. It doesn't mean I think it's forgivable. It's akin to saying we should forgive a serial killer because they've obviously got a mental problem. I'm not saying there's not some kind of argument to be made, just that I don't think we should place too much value on it.
 
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