I don't get why so many people thought Kagawa was so bad last night. I think he did good.
Shinji Kagawa
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People are retarded and expect too much, that's why...
For being a CL knockout stage fixture away against Real, we did pretty awesome last night. Kagawa should not be excluded from this awesomeness, considering he had a pretty good first half.
I think we did better than Dortmund did in Madrid, and people praised them and their entire team. I don't see why it should be different when it comes to us.
Yep, he was good in the first half. Kept the ball well in tight spaces and kept things moving. Considering the huge difference in style of play between us and dortmund, it'l take him atleast a season to get used to everything.
No. He had a set role in the team and basically executed it to perfection. He doesn't have a set role in this team and it's quite obvious. He clearly hasn't settled and that does you no favors coming up against one of the best teams in the world.
Plus in the Bundesliga, the pace is not as fast and he was more able to adjust to the physical challenge compared to the EPL. You see how long it took Silva to really get to grips with this league. I contend Kagawa being out for 2 months has stalled his adjustment period.
Sahin struggled physically in this league too.
I won't be available to really defend my points. Will be quite busy for the next 6 months unfortunately. Although here's my two pence:
There is the notion that fans only remember how you finish more so than how you started. I think this notion applies for Kagawa's performance on Wednesday. Whilst it was an ineffective performance, I don't think it was necessarily a poor one. He actually started quite well but who's going to remember that? They'll just remember the times he lost the ball and how he tired in the second half. It seems as if the nature of fandom is to exclude a holistic perspective when it comes to a player's performance.
As I highlighted in another post, there are some things working against Kagawa:
1) Coming back from injury
2) Not fully acclimatised with the squad and our style of play
3) Teammates not used to his style and he rarely plays with Cleverley (one of the few players who understands how he plays)
4) No real defined role - based on his positioning
5) We are in the business end of the season
These factors play a part in why Kagawa has been so "disappointing". Point 5 is quite relevant for the caf and a good amount of United fans in general. When the stakes get high, blame is easily found. There's a sense of desperation for any player selected in the starting XI to perform/justify their place in the team. We're more forgiving in the earlier parts of the season but not now. For me, I think that's where some of the criticism arises from. Right now, he's sort of in a lose-lose situation. If he plays the way he played at Dortmund, he will be less involved in the build-up play as he waits to open up the opposition in advanced areas. However, if he chooses to drift around, he can get caught on the ball more often or just do enough to help us maintain possession rather than playing threatening passes through the opposition. The ideal is for him to do both but this will take time.
We know he's a good player but I do feel for him. He's certainly not settled into the team and his teammates aren't used to his style. I daresay, I don't think we've signed this type of player before and it shows. I think he will come good for us but because of his style, he needs to work better with his teammates as his teammates need to work better with him. If you look at any of Dortmund's videos when he was there, you will see how they played off of him and a teammate was never too far away. In our expansive setup, he's not allowed that luxury.
You can play him on the wing but against top opposition, unless we are dominating possession, he won't be very effective as he will be dropped too deep. If he does start in the second leg, it needs to be with Cleverley with Kagawa being just off of RVP. I know many United fans prefer Rooney there which is a good option too. However, my point is centered around getting the best out of Kagawa. I just don't see that happening on the wing. Not against tougher opponents at least.
Cheers to all! I hope you enjoyed the first leg as much as I did
There is the notion that fans only remember how you finish more so than how you started. I think this notion applies for Kagawa's performance on Wednesday. Whilst it was an ineffective performance, I don't think it was necessarily a poor one. He actually started quite well but who's going to remember that? They'll just remember the times he lost the ball and how he tired in the second half. It seems as if the nature of fandom is to exclude a holistic perspective when it comes to a player's performance.
As I highlighted in another post, there are some things working against Kagawa:
1) Coming back from injury
2) Not fully acclimatised with the squad and our style of play
3) Teammates not used to his style and he rarely plays with Cleverley (one of the few players who understands how he plays)
4) No real defined role - based on his positioning
5) We are in the business end of the season
These factors play a part in why Kagawa has been so "disappointing". Point 5 is quite relevant for the caf and a good amount of United fans in general. When the stakes get high, blame is easily found. There's a sense of desperation for any player selected in the starting XI to perform/justify their place in the team. We're more forgiving in the earlier parts of the season but not now. For me, I think that's where some of the criticism arises from. Right now, he's sort of in a lose-lose situation. If he plays the way he played at Dortmund, he will be less involved in the build-up play as he waits to open up the opposition in advanced areas. However, if he chooses to drift around, he can get caught on the ball more often or just do enough to help us maintain possession rather than playing threatening passes through the opposition. The ideal is for him to do both but this will take time.
We know he's a good player but I do feel for him. He's certainly not settled into the team and his teammates aren't used to his style. I daresay, I don't think we've signed this type of player before and it shows. I think he will come good for us but because of his style, he needs to work better with his teammates as his teammates need to work better with him. If you look at any of Dortmund's videos when he was there, you will see how they played off of him and a teammate was never too far away. In our expansive setup, he's not allowed that luxury.
You can play him on the wing but against top opposition, unless we are dominating possession, he won't be very effective as he will be dropped too deep. If he does start in the second leg, it needs to be with Cleverley with Kagawa being just off of RVP. I know many United fans prefer Rooney there which is a good option too. However, my point is centered around getting the best out of Kagawa. I just don't see that happening on the wing. Not against tougher opponents at least.
Cheers to all! I hope you enjoyed the first leg as much as I did
Well reading the comments on here you might sometimes think we got hammered by Real and our team played god awful, Rooney was garbage, Welbz had nothing else going for him than the goal, Kagawa can't cope with the physicality of the league despite us playing in Europe, Jones is no midfielder and never will be and Rafael is just super shit at defending and should be a winger from now on.
DDG was the only one who got praise for that game somehow but apparently the rest of the team was useless.
/rant
I also thought Kagawa did okay, even though there is no doubt that we haven't seen the best of him yet, sometimes it needs a season or two until players fully settle in especially if a player picks up a lengthy injury early on.
Kagawa looks like he has a decent touch and can read the game well but TBH I have no idea what he has done at Utd to justify a start against Madrid on Wednesday. Especially given the options we have in his position. I think his performance basically epitomised his time with us so far.
Kagawas problem is simple-Rooney. Kagawa would be doing better playing behind Roo or Rvp.
He's had some good games on the left tbf
Well who else would we play on the left. Frankly our wide players this year - Giggs in recent games aside - have been dreadful. In fact this is the worst year I can remember for our wingers for a long time.
I thought he was the only one out of all of us to be able to hold the ball in tight spaces. Everyone else dished off hurriedly instead of actually trying to hold the ball and take players on.
Haven't read the thread but people questioning his ability after that game? Weird.
Haven't read the thread but people questioning his ability after that game? Weird.
I agree it's been a bizarre season to date for our wingers. However given the formation we played and the fact that welbeck & rooney were already playing, I would have preferred Nani, Anderson or cleverley to have started. Not sure about Youngs fitness?
ManUtd Stuff @ManUtdStuff
SAF: "In Germany you can't foul. The PL is completely different as there's physical contact in our game. Next year, Kagawa will be better."
SAF: "In Germany you can't foul. The PL is completely different as there's physical contact in our game. Next year, Kagawa will be better."
It's also worth noting that he praised Kagawa on his performance against Real, and even pointed out that the Kagawa critics are unfair.
He never really criticizes our players in public, except when he wants to send a message tbf. Full quotes -
"In the first half an hour [in midweek] he was terrific as he kept making these great runs through them, which we thought was going to be one of our biggest assets in the game," Sir Alex explained.
"He was just unlucky that he had a couple of heavy touches on the ball when he made runs past Robin van Persie. He kept opening them up but people don't see that, which is a wee bit unfair, as he did really well for us in the first half."
Sir Alex is convinced the 23-year-old will only begin to show his true colours after having a full season to settle at Old Trafford.
"He's come from an environment that is completely different," he stated. "I think the difference between German football and English football has been shown. In Germany you can't foul. It's foul after foul.
"The Premier League is completely different as there's physical contact in our game and it's different to Germany but, next year, he'll be better."
.............
Qualified praise. Most of it.
Kagawa's natural role is that behind the striker. He's not a CM and he's not a winger. He also takes his time to settle down. He did the same with Dortmund.
SAF is definitely right when he says that in the Bundesliga there are a lot more fouls called.
I sometimes wonder how many players would remain on the field if, let's say Stoke would get Brych as a ref for one evening, I have a feeling they would finish with 5 players.
I sometimes wonder how many players would remain on the field if, let's say Stoke would get Brych as a ref for one evening, I have a feeling they would finish with 5 players.
True, but this sort of praise is rare enough. Not only did he praise Kagawa, who even I will admit hasn't been amongst our 5 best players this season, but he also called the Kagawa criticism unfair. I think this is a brilliant "in your face" to all Kagawa critics. No message is stronger than when it comes from the Master himself.
nah...I wouldn't say so.
I mean we weren't terrible or anything, but we were the 2nd best team, while in all honesty Dortmund outplayed and outclassed Madrid on both occasions (more notable the home-game, but still).
Madrid were on a different level than they were against Dortmund, don't underestimate that. The fought for their lives against us, having virtually lost everything else there is to be won. Quite an inappropriate comparison.
That's even ignoring the form/shape they were in back then.
That's even ignoring the form/shape they were in back then.
Madrid were the better team against Dortmund at the Bernabaeu. They had probably more clear chances than they did against us too.
No it really isn't. He praised Rafael in more glowing terms for example after the Madrid game.
And then he qualifies it by saying Wee bit unfair and also putting in the point about Physicality.
Let's be honest De Gea saved our ass that night but we probably had more chances than Dortmund at the Santiago Bernabeu and didn't spend the entire second half defending like they did.
But it's a bit futile to discuss that because Real was probably in worse form when they had their games against Dortmund so it's hard to say.
He gets more space with us on the left right now though, unless it is a open game. In the center he gets overcrowded or physically pushed off the ball.
Until, he gets more adapted to the quicker pace and physicality of the prem, think playing him on the left may suit him more.
I think it says more about the way the games panned out. Madrid didn't really start dominating and creating chances until they were 2-1 down against Dortmund. Had we not conceded soon after going 1 up and carried our lead into the second half, it probably would have been a similar half to the second of Madrid v Dortmund.
Kagawa is an exceptional footballer. His technique is flawless when he gets going. He is unselfish and has the vision required to suxeedat the highest level.
He can't be judged on his brief time at United..how could he? He's a #10 who is being asked to play anywhere but ffs. He is not a physically impressive specimen and as SAF has stated, he needs time to adapt to thr Englisg game. The language, the culture and the lifestyle are all massive.
Being realistic, why do we think he was bought? World football knows that he is a #10 for all but his time accomodating Honda in the international setup. Fergie is obviously aware of such. I've said it nunerous times since his signature...I would love to see the following:
God knows our wingers aren't doing anything to inspire a different though. I know we'd lack width but that would be an exceptional line-up. I also see the lack of width as managable. If Rafael or Evra bomb forward, Jones is there to hold the fort if needs be.
Thats right there is something I would go weak at the knee for right now
He can't be judged on his brief time at United..how could he? He's a #10 who is being asked to play anywhere but ffs. He is not a physically impressive specimen and as SAF has stated, he needs time to adapt to thr Englisg game. The language, the culture and the lifestyle are all massive.
Being realistic, why do we think he was bought? World football knows that he is a #10 for all but his time accomodating Honda in the international setup. Fergie is obviously aware of such. I've said it nunerous times since his signature...I would love to see the following:
Rooney Rvp
Kagawa
Carrick Cleverley
Jones
Kagawa
Carrick Cleverley
Jones
God knows our wingers aren't doing anything to inspire a different though. I know we'd lack width but that would be an exceptional line-up. I also see the lack of width as managable. If Rafael or Evra bomb forward, Jones is there to hold the fort if needs be.
Thats right there is something I would go weak at the knee for right now
Kagawa is an exceptional footballer. His technique is flawless when he gets going. He is unselfish and has the vision required to suxeedat the highest level.
He can't be judged on his brief time at United..how could he? He's a #10 who is being asked to play anywhere but ffs. He is not a physically impressive specimen and as SAF has stated, he needs time to adapt to thr Englisg game. The language, the culture and the lifestyle are all massive.
Being realistic, why do we think he was bought? World football knows that he is a #10 for all but his time accomodating Honda in the international setup. Fergie is obviously aware of such. I've said it nunerous times since his signature...I would love to see the following:
Rooney Rvp
Kagawa
Carrick Cleverley
Jones
God knows our wingers aren't doing anything to inspire a different though. I know we'd lack width but that would be an exceptional line-up. I also see the lack of width as managable. If Rafael or Evra bomb forward, Jones is there to hold the fort if needs be.
Thats right there is something I would go weak at the knee for right now
Swap Carrick and Jones and replace Jones for Anderson.
Do people think SAF will keep the faith and start Kagawa against Madrid at home? I hope he does.
The tactic almost paid off. Kagawa was very close to be through on goal twice. Some last ditch tackling stopped him. Real won't be as dominating so it might not be such a bad idea. After all he's got a lot of composure and can easily keep the ball unlike almost any player on our team bar RvP.
Also against United , they were more fired up with it being their only hope for a decent season this season.
Hope not. I want Rooney behind RVP and two of Welbeck/Nani/Valencia wide.
Definitely!
Hopefully. As much as i support Nani, he's been out of action for far too long to feature in a game of this magnitude. I'd actually go with the exact same team that played last game except having Cleverley instead of Jones.
That really is not true. We had more possession and created more clear cut chances than Dortmund did in Madrid and our game was by far the more important one.
Agreed. Sacrificing a better a player in Rooney to accommodate an ineffective Kagawa makes no sense to me
He's going to be absolutely quality once he settles into our style of play and deals with the physicality better. He shows his quality in flashes by doing things that not many of our players can technically, but isn't able to impose himself on games enough. Still, he's a very dependable player at worse, doesn't give the ball away much usually
Thats fair. First half hour or so he was a big threat.
While not a winger, I think he'll do quite well for us on a left wing role. Assuming he's allowed to drift towards the center and play his game. He's obviously still adjusting but once he's done that I'm sure he'll be great in a role different from his natural one.
Either or bud. I think Jones is a crackin little player and has that bit more pace than Mr Carrick. He'd have my pick there simply to cover the fullbacks shooting forward.
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