Agreed, thought he linked up really well with van Persie a few times and that partnership in particular could be outstanding a year or so down the line. Thought he did well defensively and kept the ball really really for the most part too. Clever movement as always of course. Played well IMO. The one issue I have is he's been dispossessed too easily on a few occasions in pretty much every game he's played here, in England and in Europe. I'd not noticed that when I saw him before in Dortmund but looking at the numbers now he's apparently been better at that with us than he was at Dortmund. Dispossessed 2.2 times per game last season (17th most in the league), 2.1 the season before...I'd say that's pretty much his only flaw so far. The rest of the issues just stem from him settling in but he's shown his class in pretty much every game.
Shinji Kagawa
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Agreed, thought he linked up really well with van Persie a few times and that partnership in particular could be outstanding a year or so down the line. Thought he did well defensively and kept the ball really really for the most part too. Clever movement as always of course. Played well IMO. The one issue I have is he's been dispossessed too easily on a few occasions in pretty much every game he's played here, in England and in Europe. I'd not noticed that when I saw him before in Dortmund but looking at the numbers now he's apparently been better at that with us than he was at Dortmund. Dispossessed 2.2 times per game last season (17th most in the league), 2.1 the season before...I'd say that's pretty much his only flaw so far. The rest of the issues just stem from him settling in but he's shown his class in pretty much every game.
http://www.manutd.com/en/News-And-Features/Football-News/2013/Feb/sir-alex-ferguson-thinks-shinji-kagawa-will-adapt-to-premier-league.aspx
Nothing really that exciting in the article, SAF just mentioning how he's still adapting to the league and our way of playing. I think its also a matter of our players getting used how he likes to play as well. Was a similar thing to Berbatov, I remember Giggs saying how he liked the ball played to his feet rather than in front for him to run onto it. Obviously, they're two completely different players and I'm expecting Kagawa to have a much better career here.
Given time I think he has the potential to displace Rooney in the no.10.
Nothing really that exciting in the article, SAF just mentioning how he's still adapting to the league and our way of playing. I think its also a matter of our players getting used how he likes to play as well. Was a similar thing to Berbatov, I remember Giggs saying how he liked the ball played to his feet rather than in front for him to run onto it. Obviously, they're two completely different players and I'm expecting Kagawa to have a much better career here.
Given time I think he has the potential to displace Rooney in the no.10.
Rooney is too much of a 'United' player to be displaced by Kagawa.I mean that he's been at United for a long time and has generally performed very very well for the club.Specially as a number 10 more than in any other position.
Kagawa has a long time and a lot of work to displace him, I hope he gives it his best though, it can only help the club
Kagawa has a long time and a lot of work to displace him, I hope he gives it his best though, it can only help the club
http://thepeoplesperson.com/klopp-kagawa-one-of-best-players-i-have-worked-with/
Kagawa has said himself he thinks his performances this season have been below par and he needs to build his confidence. I agree with SAF, once he settles and has a run of good games I back him to be successful here and it might be next season when he comes into his own.
While I think Kagawa has the potential to be excellent (having watched him very closely at Dortmund in his couple of years there), he has a long way to go to displace Rooney, who is a proven world class player for us in this position. Medium-term I can see Kagawa coming in from the left, interchanging with Rooney and a traditional winger playing on the right, but a starter, week in, week out, in a no. 10 position? Can't see it. Rooney, even if we're taking his contributions for granted at times, is an exceptional player.
Even Rooney himself has said he expects to play in CM eventually. We've seen bits of that this season already, so it's not implausible to believe Kagawa will assume the 10 position when Rooney makes the transition. Don't think it will be anytime yet though.
I agree that Rooney is an exceptional player and people can be a bit short-sighted when he isn't playing fantastically well. Still our most important player imo (controversial I know).
I'm almost 100% sure that Kagawa initially was signed to "replace" Rooney in the no.10 position. The sudden signing of RVP messed these plans up, though. Even Fergie was surprised by how these things turned out, as he never expected Arsenal to sell us RVP.
In my opinion, there are 3 types of "attacking midfielders" at top level.
1. The Versatile Striker
This is where players like Rooney, Suarez and Tevez fit in. These are basically strikers who are "too skilled" to only score goals, yet too much of a goal threat to be pushed out wide or back into CM. As a result, they end up playing in then hole behind the striker, as this is the place where they are most useful.
2. The Offensive Playmaker
This is where players like Kagawa, Iniesta, Silva and Mata fit in. These are basically midfielders who have too much attacking fibers in their bodies to be played in CM. Their first-touch, close control, vision, and link-up abilities are the reasons for why they are so useful in the AM position, and also what seperates them from other players.
3. The Versatile Winger
These players usually play out wide, but like to cut in. They are basically tailored for the modern 4-2-3-1 formation. Nevertheless, they are still more wingers than they are AM's, so that is why they mostly only play in the hole behind the striker as a temporary solution. Reus, Götze and Hazard are seems to fit this description.
In my personal opion, it's the Offensive Playmakers that make the best no.10's. It's simply because that is their specialty. Players like Rooney don't really have a specialty. That is their beauty. They can play well in pretty much any position. Rooney is therefore a much better striker and CM than Kagawa. As an AM though, I think Kagawa is better(depending on the style of the team, of course).
Kagawa is therefore pushed out left for the following reasons:
1. We got to sign RVP out of the blue(i.e. change of plans).
2. He's not used to the PL yet(and he's also been injured).
3. In our current style of play, we are slightly better off with Kagawa out left and Rooney as our no.10.
Once Kagawa finds his Dortmund form, things might get interesting to say the least. We'll be stuck with three choices then. 1) Let Kagawa take Rooney's role, 2) Change our style of play to accommodate Kagawa, or 3) Bench Kagawa. I just can't see number 3 happening. He's too good for that. It all comes down to number 1 or 2.
In my opinion, there are 3 types of "attacking midfielders" at top level.
1. The Versatile Striker
This is where players like Rooney, Suarez and Tevez fit in. These are basically strikers who are "too skilled" to only score goals, yet too much of a goal threat to be pushed out wide or back into CM. As a result, they end up playing in then hole behind the striker, as this is the place where they are most useful.
2. The Offensive Playmaker
This is where players like Kagawa, Iniesta, Silva and Mata fit in. These are basically midfielders who have too much attacking fibers in their bodies to be played in CM. Their first-touch, close control, vision, and link-up abilities are the reasons for why they are so useful in the AM position, and also what seperates them from other players.
3. The Versatile Winger
These players usually play out wide, but like to cut in. They are basically tailored for the modern 4-2-3-1 formation. Nevertheless, they are still more wingers than they are AM's, so that is why they mostly only play in the hole behind the striker as a temporary solution. Reus, Götze and Hazard are seems to fit this description.
In my personal opion, it's the Offensive Playmakers that make the best no.10's. It's simply because that is their specialty. Players like Rooney don't really have a specialty. That is their beauty. They can play well in pretty much any position. Rooney is therefore a much better striker and CM than Kagawa. As an AM though, I think Kagawa is better(depending on the style of the team, of course).
Kagawa is therefore pushed out left for the following reasons:
1. We got to sign RVP out of the blue(i.e. change of plans).
2. He's not used to the PL yet(and he's also been injured).
3. In our current style of play, we are slightly better off with Kagawa out left and Rooney as our no.10.
Once Kagawa finds his Dortmund form, things might get interesting to say the least. We'll be stuck with three choices then. 1) Let Kagawa take Rooney's role, 2) Change our style of play to accommodate Kagawa, or 3) Bench Kagawa. I just can't see number 3 happening. He's too good for that. It all comes down to number 1 or 2.
I don't see why it has to be a discussion about the comparative merits of Rooney and Kagawa in the No 10 position.
Look at Dortmund currently...Reus and Goetze in a three with Blaszczykowski behind Lewandowski.
Would it be such a big change to continue trying say, Rooney, Kagawa and Welbeck behind RVP (a la Bernebeu)? There would be no restriction on the three in terms of attacking and movement, they just have to be disciplined and know their position when defending.
I'm not saying copy Dortmund but the 4-2-3-1 is pretty popular among the successful sides of Europe.
Also, I would say a midfield two of Carrick & Jones is comparable to Dortmund's three pooled from Kehl/Bender/Gundogan.
Look at Dortmund currently...Reus and Goetze in a three with Blaszczykowski behind Lewandowski.
Would it be such a big change to continue trying say, Rooney, Kagawa and Welbeck behind RVP (a la Bernebeu)? There would be no restriction on the three in terms of attacking and movement, they just have to be disciplined and know their position when defending.
I'm not saying copy Dortmund but the 4-2-3-1 is pretty popular among the successful sides of Europe.
Also, I would say a midfield two of Carrick & Jones is comparable to Dortmund's three pooled from Kehl/Bender/Gundogan.
But our system doesn't fit for an "offensive playmaker", that's the problem.
Are you saying that because you genuinely don't think our system fits or because you don't believe Kagawa is good enough? If we had Mata/Silva/Iniesta, would you honestly bench them?
If the answer to the question above is "no", then keep in mind that Kagawa is only 23 years old. He's a much better player than Silva was at that age. Maybe even better than Iniesta was.
Why? We have, in Rooney, Kagawa and Welbeck, three excellent players at interchanging positions and intricate exchanges.
The thing about Iniesta,Ozil,Silva and Mata is that they can play wide as well and run with the ball dribbling past players and down the channel.
Kagawa can't do that, or hasn't done that so far even in his dortmund career. He is more closer to a Support striker than a AM in the way he has played so far.
Also, you are forgetting the Zidane/Veron/Riquelme/Pastore/Sneijder type playmakers, who play deeper than your Silva's/Mata's and aren't as mobile but can dictate the tempo of the game much better with their vision and 2 range passing Skills. Kagawa the way he plays right now doesn't fit in here either, as he likes to play further forward than these and doesn't have the long range passing attributes or hasn't shown so far. Maybe in the Long term he can ? Who knows ?
Kagawa can't do that, or hasn't done that so far even in his dortmund career. He is more closer to a Support striker than a AM in the way he has played so far.
Also, you are forgetting the Zidane/Veron/Riquelme/Pastore/Sneijder type playmakers, who play deeper than your Silva's/Mata's and aren't as mobile but can dictate the tempo of the game much better with their vision and 2 range passing Skills. Kagawa the way he plays right now doesn't fit in here either, as he likes to play further forward than these and doesn't have the long range passing attributes or hasn't shown so far. Maybe in the Long term he can ? Who knows ?
To be honest we have different types of players in pretty much each position so its not necessarily that Kagawa has to replace anyone he can just be an alternative - offering something diffeent in the same position, for when we want to switch it up.
Nani, Valencia and Young are three different types of winger imo, whilst Anderson, Carrick and Cleverley are three different types of CM. They might play in the same position but are expected to bring a different style/quality. There is no reason the same cant be said about Kagawa and Rooney. Their best positions are the same but they can both bring something different when they play there. Occasionally if playing togther one might start out wide and they interchange during the game. Kagawas presence can even allow Rooney to drop a bit deeper which he likes to do on occasion. Even RvP adds something when he drops into the 10 role if playing behind someone like Welbeck or Hernandez. We all know SAF likes options and to be able to switch things up a bit from game to game. Imo that's what Kagawa was bought for, not to immediately replace Rooney now although he might in time depending on whether or not Rooney does evolve into a CM.
Nani, Valencia and Young are three different types of winger imo, whilst Anderson, Carrick and Cleverley are three different types of CM. They might play in the same position but are expected to bring a different style/quality. There is no reason the same cant be said about Kagawa and Rooney. Their best positions are the same but they can both bring something different when they play there. Occasionally if playing togther one might start out wide and they interchange during the game. Kagawas presence can even allow Rooney to drop a bit deeper which he likes to do on occasion. Even RvP adds something when he drops into the 10 role if playing behind someone like Welbeck or Hernandez. We all know SAF likes options and to be able to switch things up a bit from game to game. Imo that's what Kagawa was bought for, not to immediately replace Rooney now although he might in time depending on whether or not Rooney does evolve into a CM.
I agree with Kagawa being a support striker, so let's keep playing him and Rooney and Welbeck behind RVP? Then it really doesn't matter whether the three of them wanna play left, centre, or right.
We really need to maintain the idea of fluidity in our play and do away with the switch to the wings time and again ad nauseum.
As much as I like the fluidity I have missed the wing play at times this season (with our natural wingers being injured or out of form). Its a really useful way to exploit the weaknesses of certain teams, especially nowadays with more offensive-minded fullbacks who love to bomb forward. It was useful for both the Chelsea and City away games this season
But if they are playing out wide, then they should be judged as wingers, not as no.10's. I'm talking about the times when they are playing in the hole behind the striker.
Dribbling past several players is rarely the best solution when you are in the center of the field, unless you come running from a deep position in a possible counter-attack. Kagawa can dribble past players, but that is not his strength, nor is it a necessary ability for an AM. As long as the close control, first touch, and vision is good enough, dribbling becomes plan B, or maybe even plan C.
Definitely the latter. Kagawa actually started his carreer as an DM/CM, and you'll occasionally see glimpses of this. In Dortmund he could definitely pick out many of the long-passes, though obviously not so often, given his position further up the pitch. He's also had many sweet long-passes for Japan.
I wasn't talking about them playing as Wingers, but as AM's and then drifting into channels like Ozil was against us and does every game. He skinned Rafael twice and got him booked for example. Mata does the same each game and so do Silva and Inesta.
And that is what gives them more time on the ball despite being slight players like Kagawa. If Defenders get close to them and try to bully them physically they just bounce of them turn and go past them with the ball at pace. Kagawa on the other hand has to wait for others to make the run before he can release the ball and this allows defenders to Hassle and Bully him at times.
If Kagawa is going to play so further forward then that is what he needs, unless we can adapt to him with a system like Dortmund which doesn't seem likely. Also, needs to improve his defensive workrate and Stamina slightly.
Dunno, haven't seen him play deeper so far or seen him dictate the tempo of the game which those guys could do with their consistent passing both sides.
Either for Dortmund or us he played as a Support striker, not the main AM/Playmaker.
When I said that Kagawa may eventually replace Rooney in that no.10 role, i meant not so much that Kagawa will become better than him, more than Rooney's future probably lies in the midfield. Rooney as a no.10 has been awesome for us and I think has the potential to strike up an absolutely lethal partnership with RVP (if he hasn't already).
Who's to say they cant all interchange positions and share it, which is something that has worked well for us in the past. I think that could be potentially the best option, the front four all interchanging and making us difficult to defend against. That was arguably when our attack was at its best four, five years ago.
Who's to say they cant all interchange positions and share it, which is something that has worked well for us in the past. I think that could be potentially the best option, the front four all interchanging and making us difficult to defend against. That was arguably when our attack was at its best four, five years ago.
But Kagawa can also do this, and he has done it for both Dortmund and Japan! He might not do it as often as the players you mentioned, but he is capable of doing it. The reason for why he hasn't done it so much for us, has more to do with him not being used to the PL.
"Defensive workrate" is an overrated quality for the modern AM's. As long as he drops deep enough to "bother" the opponents while being playable for his teammates, he's done his job imo. Mata and Silva aren't really doing much more either.
Kagawa's stamina is underrated. He has the best beep-test scores since David Beckham. That surely has to count for something?
He was definitely the main AM for Dortmund!
I'd love for us to go 433 for the home game against Madrid with him, clevs and Nani in it. Time to fight fire with fire.
Kagawa doesn't offer enough when the other team has the ball, and when you are playing Real Madrid that is most of the time. The other forwards and wingers do (compare Kagawa's off-the-ball work with Rooney or Welbeck or Valencia). He'll need to improve that side of his game or risk being left out of big games. His stamina and physique seem comparable to Park, so there is no reason why he can't add that side to his game if he wants to.
His stamina is nowhere close to Park's, just an easy comparison there surf.
Didn't he have the best bleep test results since Beckham?
Yes but His penis isn't as big as dion dublins.
Cevno, quit peddling old shit that isn't true. He certainly can dribble past players. The only thing your points have highlighted is Kagawa prefers to be more of a team player. That's really about it mate.
On the topic of general discussion, I think we have the wrong idea here about Kagawa displacing Rooney. We know where Kagawa's best position and I'm quite confident we will play him there. What we must keep in mind here is SAF values versatility and he will use it to his advantage when he can. Look at the way we use players like Rooney, Welbeck, Valencia, Jones especially.
We like to use versatility. So the idea that Kagawa is displacing Rooney as a no.10 could be true. However, I don't see it as some sort of absolute and I think SAF, based on what he's done over the years, will continue to rotate players as he see fits and depending on the opposition. It can work against you but we've done a pretty good job of making it work.
On the topic of general discussion, I think we have the wrong idea here about Kagawa displacing Rooney. We know where Kagawa's best position and I'm quite confident we will play him there. What we must keep in mind here is SAF values versatility and he will use it to his advantage when he can. Look at the way we use players like Rooney, Welbeck, Valencia, Jones especially.
We like to use versatility. So the idea that Kagawa is displacing Rooney as a no.10 could be true. However, I don't see it as some sort of absolute and I think SAF, based on what he's done over the years, will continue to rotate players as he see fits and depending on the opposition. It can work against you but we've done a pretty good job of making it work.
Find me videos of 10 dribbles and him carrying the ball over 50 yards then during his dortmund days ?
I never said he can't dribble at all, but he certainly can't like Mata/Silva etc.. who can carry the ball past several players. He can dribble but on the odd occasion. Even when he's played wide for us he's hardly taken on the man.
Haha you are a funny one mate. Dribbling over 50 yards
But if you really watch Mata and Silva, their game isn't built around dribbling past players like that. It's more in how they are the creative hub of their respective teams. That's why their stats are so good, namely Mata's. Hazard is a better example of someone who incessantly takes on his man.
Whenever I watch the aforementioned players, while they show their ability to dribble past opponents, more of their work is done creatively through their passing and movement. Besides, the scenarios you describe are overly simplistic. Running down the channel. Isn't that associated with wingers mainly? Dribbling past several players, Ozil doesn't really do this but we know he can. Because he does it less frequently, does that mean he's not a good dribbler?
Where he played for Dortmund, he didn't really need to dribble past several players anyway. Dortmund's style of play doesn't really favor that kind of player either. Most of their players can beat an opponent on the dribble but after that happens, they pass the ball off and move into space. What he's done there was effective enough. His stats show that. It's just a matter of style and I honestly think you're emphasizing the dribbling bit. It's something which holds more merit when you're discussing players such as Nani and Hazard.
I already said it, Kagawa is a team-based player meaning he won't be as selfish on the ball compared to other players who play in similar positions/roles. Doesn't make him that much less of an AM imo. It's a matter of style and if you can't get that in your head, you're just disappointing yourself. I highlighted your posts because your points come off as errant. Expecting a player to do something he prefers not to do more so than not being capable of doing it.
Against Madrid you see plenty of the ball, they prefer to hit you on the counter. Kagawa isn't as good as Rooney without the ball, but there are few who are. And I'd argue that you've primarily got a number 10 in the team for what they do with the ball, not without. I think he's work rate isn't really an issue at all, a player as talented with the ball at his feet as him, I'm happy his not wasting his energy chasing the ball around too much.
Any word on why he wasn't in the squad today? Did he even travel?
Welcome to Manchester.
Like with De Gea, this is the turning point where the media suddenly change their mind about him. Lots had already written him off on the back of a few matches.
Sheer quality.
Sheer quality.
Always been a great finisher, it's nice to see him getting the chances to show it now.
Such composure in his goals, made them look so easy.
I'm sure he'll be more influential in his second season.
Delighted for the lad. His 1st season so far has been a bit uneventful, but with the hattrick today he his showing some of the class he showed for Dortmund.
Yep hopefully this game is the turning point for him. Thought he's played pretty well today overall and he was so calm and composed with all 3 of his goals. Quality.
3 excellently taken goals from 3 excellent supporting runs. This is Kagawa
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