Shinji Kagawa

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Second best player today. I think his plays today would have been able to lead to several goals if it wasn't for his team mates fecking the chances up.

Should be the first outfield player picked in the team for me.
 
I feel like with Kagawa, fans get into arguments based on their expectations of what Shinji should be doing on the pitch rather than what he's actually doing.

People will say "ah not good enough. He was invisible" without really thinking through what that means and why it can come across that way. His movement is really something else. I could do a tactical piece based on that alone. There was one moment where he checked back to midfield, didn't receive the ball then moved further upfield dragging one of Shaktar's midfielders with him which opened a passing lane for one of our other players.

It's not just what about players do on the ball, it's also what they can do off of it. If you watch what Ozil does for Ramsey's goal against Liverpool, you'll see what I mean. His movement attracts attention from the opposition and it's important as a team we look to exploit it. Kagawa can certainly be doing more but I can't call that any worse than average. He wants to succeed here and his presence in the team tells me Moyes rates him. Needs a goal though.

I cant wait for the next United match I get to see live. Was talking with one of my friends how Rooney's movement is underrated and it's harder to appreciate when watching on TV because the camera views are so zoomed in.
 
alastair said:
He's terrified of shooting. Hilariously so.
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It is understandable the way we treat him though. Even after our best game of the season where he was the difference he got benched. Same goes for Nani who got benched for shooting a lot as well.

I do agree though that when Kagawa gets the ball he seems to be scared of attempting a shot. Has its comical value.
 
Decent game today, nothing more. Jones and Büttner were better.

I don't think Kagawa was worse than any of our other midfielders and attackers, though. Come to think of it, whenever Kagawa plays really well, the team as a unit does too. That's hardly a coinscidence. Kagawa thrives in quick and technical game plans, with lots of movement. Today we were rather static(as usual) and didn't create much. It's kind of depressing to see Kagawa drop down to our own 16-yard box to help out the CBs when we're not even being pressured. He's inviting people to move more, yet no one seems eager to follow. Surely that has to be blamed on our tactics? I refuse to believe that our players aren't fit enough.

Kagawa has never been a player who whines or shows clear signs of frustration. But today he was. That's what surprised me the most about today's match. There were a couple of incidences where you could just see him shaking his head in frustration or making "silly" gestures.
 
I expect more from Kagawa but all I see is a decent player who is slumbering, waiting for something to happen. In fairness, the terrible form of majority of our attacking players isn't helping his cause so there should be more dictating coming from him. I think once we get something going up front, he'll turn it on and become more influential.
 
There are a lot of comments about how he needs the other players to be doing the right things, playing well, etc, for him to thrive. That is all well and good, but forwards have to be able to do something even when things aren't working - take responsibility and do it on their own, like a goal out of nothing. RVP, Rooney, even Januzaj and Nani can do this. Can Kagawa? Perhaps he is not bold enough to play forward and is more suited to midfield. It's no good having a shrinking violet at forward.
 
The two decisions where he didn't shoot today were fine, it's not a criticism you can label at him for that game. One was to Giggs in a far better position, and the other was on the edge of the box with a defender closing him down which he then subsequently slid it through to Rooney, who took an awful touch.
 
I'd love to see us try playing Rooney, Januzaj and Kagawa as a three behind Van Persie for a run of games.
 
Annahnomoss said:
Should be the first outfield player picked in the team for me.
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Jesus wept!

I want to see Shinji playing as much as possible but how can you make such a ludicrous claim when he is yet to find his feet at United? Think before...

MikeUpNorth said:
I'd love to see us try playing Rooney, Januzaj and Kagawa as a three behind Van Persie for a run of games.
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That looks lovely on paper but how do you work it?

surf said:
There are a lot of comments about how he needs the other players to be doing the right things, playing well, etc, for him to thrive. That is all well and good, but forwards have to be able to do something even when things aren't working - take responsibility and do it on their own, like a goal out of nothing. RVP, Rooney, even Januzaj and Nani can do this. Can Kagawa? Perhaps he is not bold enough to play forward and is more suited to midfield. It's no good having a shrinking violet at forward.
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You hit the nail there. I am a bis supporter of Shinji and I'd love to see him playing on a regular basis, but, it ain't right how peoplw continuously revert to the movement that was all around him at Dortmund. Kloop reckons this guy is the bee's knees. If so, and everything that has gone before him cans resurface - the man should be able to adapt to the United style and play from the left (ala Japan). It is simply too easy to blame being played out of position all of the time.
 
Gaeilge said:
That looks lovely on paper but how do you work it?
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The Chelsea formation:
Two holding midfielders (Ramirez/Lampard - Carrick/Jones)
Three attackers (Mata/Hazard/Schurrle - Rooney/Kagawa/Januzaj)
A striker (Eto'o - RVP)
 
Don't think he's terrified of shooting at all. He had a couple of attempts today, and in the other two instances where he might have had a go, he slid nice passes in to Rooney and Giggs, both in better positions. We talk about wanting to play creatively through the middle - looking for the pass even when you're already in an advanced position is the reason players like Kagawa offer that. It's what he was doing all day against Leverkusen.

Relative to the very average team performance, he was decent today. Not electric, as he was against Bayer, but good enough to keep his position if we can fit him in.
 
Gaeilge said:
Jesus wept!

I want to see Shinji playing as much as possible but how can you make such a ludicrous claim when he is yet to find his feet at United? Think before...
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We are having huge problems finding a team cohesion and a playing style but every time he plays as a number 10 we take huge steps towards. I don't really care who the best individuals in a team are, it is about which team is best. So far our best team was against Leverkusen with Kagawa/Nani, so in my eyes Kagawa should be playing week in week out.
 
Skywarden said:
I expect more from Kagawa but all I see is a decent player who is slumbering, waiting for something to happen. In fairness, the terrible form of majority of our attacking players isn't helping his cause so there should be more dictating coming from him. I think once we get something going up front, he'll turn it on and become more influential.
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Yeah I can see where that's coming from. From my understanding, Kagawa prefers to be the ultimate team player over a more individualistic one . And that can really hinder his performance when the team isn't playing well. It's the main difference between him & Januzaj. Januzaj is a better dribbler of course so he's able to showcase his individualistic qualities.

I've noticed this especially in UK but the players who are more active on the ball, exude a lot of effort, animated characters or just "show some bollocks" are taken to more than players who are more passive but just as essential. For example, Ozil looks like he's not putting in a lot of effort because his demeanor is quite calm (like he floats on the ground) and his facial expressions are quite neutral. So it's easy to say he's not trying or he doesnt look like he's trying but he's actually done a fair bit of defensive work even though it's still his main weakness. Whereas, you take someone like Rooney whose face is compared to that of a fictional ogre in Shrek and I think that says it all really.

I honestly dont think a lot fans in the UK can appreciate what Busquets does for Barca like the Spaniards do. If he was brought to a PL club before establishing his status as one of the best midfielders in the world, I'm not sure he'd be so highly rated. Kind of in the same way Carrick & Scholes have been underrated. In an interview with Sky, Pep was asked which midfielder from United he would like to his team and instantly he said Paul Scholes. It just seems with players who can bring out the best in their team in a less conventional way take longer to be recognized. There's a youtube video showing the effect of Busquets' disguised passes and how that open spaces for Barca to attack or catches the opponent off-guard.

So when we look at Kagawa, he could certainly be doing more but I think it's important to know what he is and what he is not. Otherwise, you're just going to get frustrated because he's not living up to your expectations.
 
surf said:
There are a lot of comments about how he needs the other players to be doing the right things, playing well, etc, for him to thrive. That is all well and good, but forwards have to be able to do something even when things aren't working - take responsibility and do it on their own, like a goal out of nothing. RVP, Rooney, even Januzaj and Nani can do this. Can Kagawa? Perhaps he is not bold enough to play forward and is more suited to midfield. It's no good having a shrinking violet at forward.
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I have never seen Kagawa score a goal out of nothing like the other players have. He can create angles for himself to shoot but it's just not the same. That's not a bad thing. I haven't seen other number 10s do it either but it depends what you want. He's still getting his confidence up. I think that's why Moyes kept him on. I was concerned at first whether or not Moyes rates him but I think he does.

Hopefully Kagawa can repay the faith that Moyes is currently has in him.
 
Gaeilge said:
You hit the nail there. I am a bis supporter of Shinji and I'd love to see him playing on a regular basis, but, it ain't right how peoplw continuously revert to the movement that was all around him at Dortmund. Kloop reckons this guy is the bee's knees. If so, and everything that has gone before him cans resurface - the man should be able to adapt to the United style and play from the left (ala Japan). It is simply too easy to blame being played out of position all of the time.
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I think you need to realize the importance of that movement in relation to Kagawa's current style of play. It correlates with why he does well on the left with Japan. When he plays for Japan, is he approaching the game alot differently to how he did for Dortmund or even United? I dont think so.

The key difference is that both managers for Japan and Dortmund realize what Kagawa can do with that movement around him and build around that. Now, with Japan, Honda is seen more as the central figure compared to how Kagawa was for Dortmund. At United, we are asking him to do something different. We're asking him to adapt to the way we play but gradually adjusting to his approach to the game.

It's not just enough to say "stick kagawa on the left!. He plays there for Japan". That ignores Japan's system and their short-passing style which complements Kagawa's natural style of play more than ours. As Sphaero said sometime ago, Kagawa is a multiplicator. he can take your team up another level when the team is flowing at a decent level but is less impactful when the team isn't performing so hot. It's one of the risks in playing him but you know what you'll get from him when things start paying off.

You see this with Ozil as well. I dont mean to use him so much but he's a really good example. There were times with Madrid where Ozil was invisible in the big games but then when it came to supply the crucial pass, he was there and he made it. Other times that moment never happened and his performance was heavily criticized. The question becomes do you replace such a player with one who can make more of a direct impact over the course of 90 minutes through his approach to the game? Tough call.

Maybe while he's at United, he'll learn to be more individualistic and apply that more in the future. For now, he's 10 times more of a team player than an individual one and United fans will just have to accept that.

I'm not saying you cant criticize him if you feel he should be doing more. I think we all would like to see him do more. At the same time, it's important to look into why he's not performing the way we'd like rather than saying "Kagawa was nonexistent..he was shite".

I dont know. That's how I view the game. Hope i didn bore you
 
There were a couple of times today when he was looking at our zombie football, finding it hard to believe, and actually physically pointing to other players where they should be making runs. Whether or not he produces much in a given match, he's one of few players we have who understand space, how to run into it to create passing angles and how to use it when he has the ball.
 
I'm gonna break my "no reply" rule just this once to give Gladiator a round of applause. That's one the best posts in this thread!:)
 
Gladiator said:
I think you need to realize the importance of that movement in relation to Kagawa's current style of play. It correlates with why he does well on the left with Japan. When he plays for Japan, is he approaching the game alot differently to how he did for Dortmund or even United? I dont think so.

The key difference is that both managers for Japan and Dortmund realize what Kagawa can do with that movement around him and build around that. Now, with Japan, Honda is seen more as the central figure compared to how Kagawa was for Dortmund. At United, we are asking him to do something different. We're asking him to adapt to the way we play but gradually adjusting to his approach to the game.

It's not just enough to say "stick kagawa on the left!. He plays there for Japan". That ignores Japan's system and their short-passing style which complements Kagawa's natural style of play more than ours. As Sphaero said sometime ago, Kagawa is a multiplicator. he can take your team up another level when the team is flowing at a decent level but is less impactful when the team isn't performing so hot. It's one of the risks in playing him but you know what you'll get from him when things start paying off.

You see this with Ozil as well. I dont mean to use him so much but he's a really good example. There were times with Madrid where Ozil was invisible in the big games but then when it came to supply the crucial pass, he was there and he made it. Other times that moment never happened and his performance was heavily criticized. The question becomes do you replace such a player with one who can make more of a direct impact over the course of 90 minutes through his approach to the game? Tough call.

Maybe while he's at United, he'll learn to be more individualistic and apply that more in the future. For now, he's 10 times more of a team player than an individual one and United fans will just have to accept that.

I'm not saying you cant criticize him if you feel he should be doing more. I think we all would like to see him do more. At the same time, it's important to look into why he's not performing the way we'd like rather than saying "Kagawa was nonexistent..he was shite".

I dont know. That's how I view the game. Hope i didn bore you
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I am not criticizing Kagawa, I am merely saying that it is not right/fair for anybody to stand up and blame United or anybody associated with United, when it comes to his individual performances. I don't care about Ozil or anybody else here. I am talking about Kagawa and the only thing that actually matters to us - his performances for Manchester United.

You need to understand something, I am a huge believer in Shinji Kagawa's play and ability. I never once said 'Kagawa was nonexistent..he was shite' - on the contrary. It is not about Japan's style suiting him more. It is simply that while Japan are a football nation on the rise, himself and Honda are the stars there. The team is built around them and this is somewhat different at United.

I will not backtrack on what I have said. Shinji Kagawa is a professional football and one who has proven in Germany - that he is an exceptional talent. He has not managed this at United thus far. It is a fair point to say that while he is in transition himself (new country and brand of ball), he has not been helped by being played out of his comfort zone. To battle this, he is playing in his Japanese role and not accomplishing the same result. This can be credited to any number of things and the player is at the fore front of the majority.

I hope to god that he ascends into footballing greatness at Old Trafford. I really do
 
Gaeilge said:
Shinji Kagawa is a professional football and one who has proven in Germany - that he is an exceptional talent. He has not managed this at United thus far. It is a fair point to say that while he is in transition himself (new country and brand of ball), he has not been helped by being played out of his comfort zone. To battle this, he is playing in his Japanese role and not accomplishing the same result. This can be credited to any number of things and the player is at the fore front of the majority.

I hope to god that he ascends into footballing greatness at Old Trafford. I really do
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:lol:Yeah he was so much better with the Mitre Delta. Damn you Nike Strike, damn you!
 
Gladiator said:
The key difference is that both managers for Japan and Dortmund realize what Kagawa can do with that movement around him and build around that.
As Sphaero said sometime ago, Kagawa is a multiplicator. he can take your team up another level when the team is flowing at a decent level but is less impactful when the team isn't performing so hot. It's one of the risks in playing him but you know what you'll get from him when things start paying off.
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Good post. I agree with your points, but what I disagree is the context, especially on the lines I quoted.

(1) We do not have the movement. We do not have anything to multiply. The fact that a out of place defender and a 18 year old boy are out top midfield performers says a lot about the quality there. I don't think we can create movment for him to multiply in next 2-3 months and
(2) The fact that Kagawa's favourite position is occupied by our best player of this season. I'm not sure on how to fit Rooney and Kagawa togetherand still think calling for him to replace Rooney, esp in current form is madness.

He certainly is a good player, but fitting him in the team is going to be a big problem.
 
Gaeilge said:
I am not criticizing Kagawa, I am merely saying that it is not right/fair for anybody to stand up and blame United or anybody associated with United, when it comes to his individual performances. I don't care about Ozil or anybody else here. I am talking about Kagawa and the only thing that actually matters to us - his performances for Manchester United.

You need to understand something, I am a huge believer in Shinji Kagawa's play and ability. I never once said 'Kagawa was nonexistent..he was shite' - on the contrary. It is not about Japan's style suiting him more. It is simply that while Japan are a football nation on the rise, himself and Honda are the stars there. The team is built around them and this is somewhat different at United.

I will not backtrack on what I have said. Shinji Kagawa is a professional football and one who has proven in Germany - that he is an exceptional talent. He has not managed this at United thus far. It is a fair point to say that while he is in transition himself (new country and brand of ball), he has not been helped by being played out of his comfort zone. To battle this, he is playing in his Japanese role and not accomplishing the same result. This can be credited to any number of things and the player is at the fore front of the majority.

I hope to god that he ascends into footballing greatness at Old Trafford. I really do
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Hold on man! You need to realize something. I'm not attacking you. I never said you said "Kagawa was nonexistent". I wasn't even implying it. The fact that you thought that has me slightly puzzled. Maybe I should read what I wrote again. I was just using that phrase to make a point. In your first post (the one I responded to) you talked about how you are a big believer in Shinji so no point thinking you thought he was nonexistent. In fact, that has to do with people that I encounter on Twitter who say "kagawa was anonymous". There's absolutely no depth in that kind of opinion.

On the japan point, you just said what I was saying in a different way. I'm just telling you my view, what we know from observations and the relevant context which can be added as a supplementary view to his position at United now. It seems confusing to me that you're defining what it is or is not about.That's very subjective.

While Kagawa's performances at United are most relevant to us as United supporters, it's fallacious imo to discount everything else from his career. You said he hasn't proved he's an exceptional talent here. I would say he doesn't need to prove anything other than that he can hack in the EPL and at a top club like United. Him not proving that doesn't mean he's not an exceptional talent. It means he failed to live up to those expectations. It would certainly raise questions about tier of players he's in. But that's not what you said in your post.
 
Jippy said:
Someone is making a late charge for essay writer of the year.
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Honestly I think this new era has charged me up like no other. I've never written so many thoughts out like this. It's a weird feeling but as long as it's not too disruptive I'll continue. Feel free to put me on ignore if it's too much.
 
Absolute Fruit Cake said:
Good post. I agree with your points, but what I disagree is the context, especially on the lines I quoted.

(1) We do not have the movement. We do not have anything to multiply. The fact that a out of place defender and a 18 year old boy are out top midfield performers says a lot about the quality there. I don't think we can create movment for him to multiply in next 2-3 months and
(2) The fact that Kagawa's favourite position is occupied by our best player of this season. I'm not sure on how to fit Rooney and Kagawa togetherand still think calling for him to replace Rooney, esp in current form is madness.

He certainly is a good player, but fitting him in the team is going to be a big problem.
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You're right. It is a big problem but I think with a player of his quality, it is part of Moyes' responsibility to figure out how to best use him. I would venture to guess that Moyes realizes what Kagawa is capable of in terms of his own individual quality and what he can offer to the team overall.

Maybe it was because it was Shaktar and we had already qualified but it spoke to me that Moyes kept Kagawa on for the whole match (iirc) or at least longer than 70 minutes. At this stage, it's hard to ignore a quality player but like you said the problem becomes how do you fit him in. So I think this will come down to whether or not Moyes is willing to move players around to get the best out of the team versus playing some players in their best positions while others, in this case Kagawa, have to adjust to a different role that is not their favored position.

I was surprised when he moved Rooney farther back in midfield but it did seem to give us more balance. It also depends on who we bring in these transfer windows. That could potentially shake up a lot of things.

But going to back your two points: (1) You're right. we don't have the movement but if Moyes can get some more confidence in the squad, including Kagawa, we will see his quality alot sooner than we think. We already saw touches of that today (i.e. the dummy) but we want to see more. That's why I said I hope Kagawa repays the faith Moyes is putting in him. Even though Moyes has the club's backing, there' s still that silver lining of "dont feck up too bad Dave" so it's like players can just try and hold on Moyes' coattails forever.
 
sullydnl said:
Classy player and was alright tonight but generally tends to go missing too often. No chance of him forcing Rooney out of position. Will definitely look better when we improve midfield but isn't the player I hoped he'd be.
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That's the thing, you'd ideally want Kagawa to perform much better in central positions in order to give Moyes the biggest headaches possible when it comes to selecting the team and choosing the tactics. Kagawa playing better behind the striker would also elevate Rooney's game as a direct and indirect consequence. I don't mean that Rooney hasn't been good, just that if he would see a threat in Kagawa, he'd play even better.
 
Gladiator said:
Honestly I think this new era has charged me up like no other. I've never written so many thoughts out like this. It's a weird feeling but as long as it's not too disruptive I'll continue. Feel free to put me on ignore if it's too much.
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I'm not knocking you mate. Let's face it, we are in strange times and it is sending us all a bit crazy. I don't have anyone on ignore!
 
Kagawa wants to play in the hole, he now has his chance to get a run there for a sustained period. We know he has the ability, it's up to him now. He doesn't have any trips to Japan and back, Rooney is forced up front, the ball is in his court now. If he doesn't take this chance, for all the ability in the world that he has, I just can't see him having a career at United.

Good luck Shinji.
 
We need to start winning league games that RvP doesn't play in. We are yet to do that this season.

I hope Moyes goes with Kagawa and Rooney for a run of games now as opposed to chopping and changing every game. It should help them to build on their understanding and gain confidence in each other and consistency that can only come from playing games.
 
I don't think he'll get to play in the hole. I think Welbeck or Chicarito will partner Rooney, with Shinji playing on the left.
 
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