Shinji Kagawa

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I don't think he'll get to play in the hole. I think Welbeck or Chicarito will partner Rooney, with Shinji playing on the left.

After Shinjis abject performance vrs Shaktar and Hernandez record vrs Villa I see him on the bench for this...

Has Rooney played well as a #9 since RVP was injured? I don't think so
 
Make or break for him in my opinion. He really needs to show a real run of form over Christmas, especially with RVP gone and probably as a 10 in several games. It wouldn't surprise me if we begun looking elsewhere if he fails to impose himself. Might be harsh, but he hasn't been anything like the player we bought. Even with the injuries he has picked up as well as perhaps not getting enough chances he needs to show a lot more.
 
He certainly needs to take this chance if he wants that position long term. Expecting him to perform to the level of Roony and RvP or shipping him out is ridiculous though.

The fact he isn't performing to his Dortmund standard is no reason to think he won't make it though. He's still a bloody good player
 
Has Rooney played well as a #9 since RVP was injured? I don't think so

Van Persie hasn't looked as good this season. Hernandez has also looked lackluster for the most part in the last month or so. I think it's fair to say playing number 9 for a team that struggles to create would make even the best look mediocre.
 
i feel that despite the huge loss of van persie, which could be the end of any faint hope of resurrecting a challenge, his injury has made moyes' team selection life easier in the next few weeks. there is no excuse now for not having kagawa behind rooney, then around christmas when games are more frequent hernandez to partner rooney up front eg west ham home, norwich or hull away.
 
I'm a bit concerned about kagawa. While he could get an extended run of games in 10 position our lack of midfield support seems to be inhibiting what he can do best. He needs to be doing more but I worry his ethos of being the ultimate team player could hurt him in this run.

ItsEssexRob said it best. Players of Kagawa's type dont really suit the PL that well. You need to be confident and have a sense of individualism about you to succeed in the PL in general. Unfortunately, Kagawa is not the most individualistic kind of player but when he was with Dortmund and on top form, he really showed what player he can be when he mixes his phenomenal style of play with flashes of individual class. You see with a player like Hazard who is more direct and loves to dribble against opponents how it opens up the game for him and his team in a Kagawa usually does not.

I hope he can grab the opportunity within these next few games but if our patterns of play and disjointedness stay the same as it has been the last few weeks, then I am concerned for him. Where he is at in his development as a top class attacker requires others to pull their weight and right now that hasn't been the case.
 
he needs games in his position. Not 10 minutes then shunted to the wing so Welbeck can fall over the ball through the middle for the best part of 90 minutes.
 
If we could get Anderson and Cleverley to play together as they once did, then with Kagawa in front of them we'd be sexy as hell going forward. We'd concede but I bet we'd score goals
 
I'm a bit concerned about kagawa. While he could get an extended run of games in 10 position our lack of midfield support seems to be inhibiting what he can do best. He needs to be doing more but I worry his ethos of being the ultimate team player could hurt him in this run.

ItsEssexRob said it best. Players of Kagawa's type dont really suit the PL that well. You need to be confident and have a sense of individualism about you to succeed in the PL in general. Unfortunately, Kagawa is not the most individualistic kind of player but when he was with Dortmund and on top form, he really showed what player he can be when he mixes his phenomenal style of play with flashes of individual class. You see with a player like Hazard who is more direct and loves to dribble against opponents how it opens up the game for him and his team in a Kagawa usually does not.

I hope he can grab the opportunity within these next few games but if our patterns of play and disjointedness stay the same as it has been the last few weeks, then I am concerned for him. Where he is at in his development as a top class attacker requires others to pull their weight and right now that hasn't been the case.


I'm getting tired of all the hype and all the excuses. At first we had, its not fair for him because hes not playing in his favorite 10 position, then after playing in the 10 position without living up to the hype next excuse was because the midfielders behind him aren't good enough, then after Giggs played behind him again with an average displyy or tidy as some others put it, it was the all the others players fault because they don't move enough around him, and now all others need to pull their weight for him to perform.

This isn't his first season you know, its his second and there isnt one game that I can remember where he did something amazing. I also feel his Dortmunt years are over hyped he wasn't Messi there on anything like that, even then it was Gotze that I used to keep on hearing about not Kagawa, and look at Anderson Porto's best player and all the hype that came with him, we probably need to turn the volume down and bit stop always coming up with excuses and realize that he might just not be all that.
 
I'm getting tired of all the hype and all the excuses. At first we had, its not fair for him because hes not playing in his favorite 10 position, then after playing in the 10 position without living up to the hype next excuse was because the midfielders behind him aren't good enough, then after Giggs played behind him again with an average displyy or tidy as some others put it, it was the all the others players fault because they don't move enough around him, and now all others need to pull their weight for him to perform.

This isn't his first season you know, its his second and there isnt one game that I can remember where he did something amazing. I also feel his Dortmunt years are over hyped he wasn't Messi there on anything like that, even then it was Gotze that I used to keep on hearing about not Kagawa, and look at Anderson Porto's best player and all the hype that came with him, we probably need to turn the volume down and bit stop always coming up with excuses and realize that he might just not be all that.
No, he was and excellent player for Dortmund, he just doesn't suit united at all, since our style of play is too shit and slow for him, and always "out to the wings, cross it in". Put him in a fluid team like arsenal and he'd be fantastic. Him not working out for united doesn't mean he's not good. He's a great team player but he needs the rest of the team to have a lot of movement and have quick play to be at his best. He's never going to show that at united because moyes and his tactics just aren't capable of playing to the higher standard of football that kagawa is suited to.
 
I really don't want to get sucked into this debate again, but if Kagawa is as good as is being made out then he would show it. Contrary to popular belief, we've some top class attacking players for him to link up with. Let's see how he gets on over the coming weeks.
 
I'm getting tired of all the hype and all the excuses. At first we had, its not fair for him because hes not playing in his favorite 10 position, then after playing in the 10 position without living up to the hype next excuse was because the midfielders behind him aren't good enough, then after Giggs played behind him again with an average displyy or tidy as some others put it, it was the all the others players fault because they don't move enough around him, and now all others need to pull their weight for him to perform.

This isn't his first season you know, its his second and there isnt one game that I can remember where he did something amazing. I also feel his Dortmunt years are over hyped he wasn't Messi there on anything like that, even then it was Gotze that I used to keep on hearing about not Kagawa, and look at Anderson Porto's best player and all the hype that came with him, we probably need to turn the volume down and bit stop always coming up with excuses and realize that he might just not be all that.
Well I think you're being obtuse because you have some warped idea of what kind of player Kagawa is. If you understood his approach to the game, you wouldnt have a problem with what I said. But his style is why he wont that highly rated here.

Look at how Ozil is criticized despite supplying the assist for Walcott. These type of players come alive in the final third. In order for them to be used effectively, others have to supply them with the ball. They cant always create on their own. They're not going to grab the game by the scruff of the neck if the team isnt playing well. Our team has been putting in poor to average performances for some time now. It doesn't help that Kagawa doesnt really fit into how we like to play. Kagawa thrives on partnerships and linking with teammates, not on his individual ability to get past an opponent like Januzaj would. We havent been doing the former very well. Little surprise why Kagawa isnt doing that well. He's benefited playing in two systems which are more tailored towards the way he plays. This is the first time he's in a team where he really has to adjust his game. It's a good challenge for him.

That's the point I'm making. It's not excuses. It's the reality which you have some sort of problem accepting. I cant help you with that.
 
Well I think you're being obtuse because you have some warped idea of what kind of player Kagawa is. If you understood his approach to the game, you wouldnt have a problem with what I said. But his style is why he wont that highly rated here.

Look at how Ozil is criticized despite supplying the assist for Walcott. These type of players come alive in the final third. In order for them to be used effectively, others have to supply them with the ball. They cant always create on their own. That's the point I'm making. It's not excuses. It's the reality which you have some sort of problem accepting. I cant help you with that

Maybe its the other way around. I cant help you with that either.
 
Well I think you're being obtuse because you have some warped idea of what kind of player Kagawa is. If you understood his approach to the game, you wouldnt have a problem with what I said. But his style is why he wont that highly rated here.

Look at how Ozil is criticized despite supplying the assist for Walcott. These type of players come alive in the final third. In order for them to be used effectively, others have to supply them with the ball. They cant always create on their own. That's the point I'm making. It's not excuses. It's the reality which you have some sort of problem accepting. I cant help you with that
Yup, all these classic number 10 players would be shit for us the way we play and because of the lack of movement. You can't just put a bunch of top class players out there (and we have just 2) and tell them to work. There has to be movement, fluidity up front, and a midfield capable of passing the ball up to him in the first place. We don't have any of those things. It's just not fair on him to say he's shit or something because the team plays shit football and the number 10 isn't making everything happen. It shows a clear lack of understanding of the importance of tactics on a football pitch, with the system you play in being more important then the actual players usually.
 
It's the risk we took when buying Kagawa. He doesnt need the team built around him but certainly a style of play which is built around partnerships around the pitch. He would be perfect for Arsenal
 
I really don't want to get sucked into this debate again, but if Kagawa is as good as is being made out then he would show it. Contrary to popular belief, we've some top class attacking players for him to link up with. Let's see how he gets on over the coming weeks.
I do think he was overhyped despite how highly I rated him. I've learned about the game these past couple of years and looking back to his dortmund years, it's alot easier to see why he was so good for them and not so much for us. If we're trying to get him to adapt his game to be more individualistic then I feel we're better off selling him.

I really like him and would love for him to succeed here but if he doesnt suit the direction we're going in, he has to go
 
Yup, all these classic number 10 players would be shit for us the way we play and because of the lack of movement. You can't just put a bunch of top class players out there (and we have just 2) and tell them to work. There has to be movement, fluidity up front, and a midfield capable of passing the ball up to him in the first place. We don't have any of those things. It's just not fair on him to say he's shit or something because the team plays shit football and the number 10 isn't making everything happen. It shows a clear lack of understanding of the importance of tactics on a football pitch, with the system you play in being more important then the actual players usually.
Yeah I'm not sure why this sort of idea is overlooked. You just have to accept it. Ozil's performance today sort of hints towards my point except Ozil is more versatile than Kagawa.

Kagawa is in my opinion a specialist and either you use it or you dont.
 
I do think he was overhyped despite how highly I rated him. I've learned about the game these past couple of years and looking back to his dortmund years, it's alot easier to see why he was so good for them and not so much for us. If we're trying to get him to adapt his game to be more individualistic then I feel we're better off selling him.

I really like him and would love for him to succeed here but if he doesnt suit the direction we're going in, he has to go
I think most people were more excited when we signed him because it was pointing to us being willing to change to that type if style that suits a player like him, but then we signed rvp and that all went out the window, until the end of last year when Sir Alex fell out with Rooney and it looked like kagawa was going to have a big year this year, until moyes took over at least.
 
I think most people were more excited when we signed him because it was pointing to us being willing to change to that type if style that suits a player like him, but then we signed rvp and that all went out the window, until the end of last year when Sir Alex fell out with Rooney and it looked like kagawa was going to have a big year this year, until moyes took over at least.
Yeah I think Moyes rates Kagawa though. It's been a struggle to get him involved and once again it goes back to our issues in midfield.

I dont think anyone in our team has had a standout performance in number 10 position. Rooney's been excellent but his productivity has stood out to me more than his overall play. Imagine if he keeps it up and brings it all together with this run now that RvP is out. We all know Rooney loves the 9 position. Hopefully both him and Kagawa can make us more potent. At the end of the day, it's a team game and if our midfield dont step up I dont care who the forward players are, our overall play will continue to struggle. Wingers need to improve as well.

Maybe where fans are most disappointed with Kagawa is that he doesn seem to look much of a matchwinner for this side.
 
I'm a bit concerned about kagawa. While he could get an extended run of games in 10 position our lack of midfield support seems to be inhibiting what he can do best. He needs to be doing more but I worry his ethos of being the ultimate team player could hurt him in this run.

ItsEssexRob said it best. Players of Kagawa's type dont really suit the PL that well. You need to be confident and have a sense of individualism about you to succeed in the PL in general. Unfortunately, Kagawa is not the most individualistic kind of player but when he was with Dortmund and on top form, he really showed what player he can be when he mixes his phenomenal style of play with flashes of individual class. You see with a player like Hazard who is more direct and loves to dribble against opponents how it opens up the game for him and his team in a Kagawa usually does not.

I hope he can grab the opportunity within these next few games but if our patterns of play and disjointedness stay the same as it has been the last few weeks, then I am concerned for him. Where he is at in his development as a top class attacker requires others to pull their weight and right now that hasn't been the case.

Without meaning to sound like a broken record, Kagawa is another one who has been struggling without Carrick in the side. The fact of the matter is that without Carrick, we don't really have anyone capable of taking the ball of the back four and spreading the play. Jones does a job to a certain extent, but I don't see him or Cleverley as that sort of midfielder. For me, that's common sense. The only other option when this happens as an attacking midfielder is to to drop deeper in midfield and go about things that way, but the same problem would be there; lack of movement up top. I feel for him in all honesty.

I think he's a good player who has his strengths, but I sense a tough month or so on the horizon for him. Sadly, I don't think that's entirely his fault.
 
You'd think Kagawa was the only player in the world who suffers from lack of movement in teammates.
 
Without meaning to sound like a broken record, Kagawa is another one who has been struggling without Carrick in the side. The fact of the matter is that without Carrick, we don't really have anyone capable of taking the ball of the back four and spreading the play. Jones does a job to a certain extent, but I don't see him or Cleverley as that sort of midfielder. For me, that's common sense. The only other option when this happens as an attacking midfielder is to to drop deeper in midfield and go about things that way, but the same problem would be there; lack of movement up top. I feel for him in all honesty.

I think he's a good player who has his strengths, but I sense a tough month or so on the horizon for him. Sadly, I don't think that's entirely his fault.
It's not just an issue for him. It's an issue for Rooney as well. Rooney fits in our setup better though.
 
I don't think anyones debating that really, or at least I'm not. Likely signs are that he will be playing off Rooney tomorrow, so we'll see.
Ye I think we all recognize kagawa could be doing better but for me, we need to change the way we're playing if we're going to see more from him. I know if he has an average performance tomorrow, there will be a lot of criticism. That's fine. It's just when people seem unwilling to dig further that it becomes a little annoying and then they say you're making excuses for the player even though you're talking about something which in a different context, they would fully accept (our midfield).

He does need to step up but at the same time, he's getting littlehelp from our midfield just like we've seen with Rooney,van Persie, Welbeck and Hernandez.
 
This thread has been full of nothing but excuses for as long as I can remember. Can't play on the left, no movement, shit wingers, players don't trust him with the ball, too slow, shit midfield, too humble blah blah.... Beggars belief that people want Rooney or RVP dropped for him. Has no urgency is his play at all and fannies about too much.

I'd stick him wide left as usual and play Rooney off Hernandez. Would drop him all together if we had a winger who wasn't shit.
 
This thread has been full of nothing but excuses for as long as I can remember. Can't play on the left, no movement, shit wingers, players don't trust him with the ball, too slow, shit midfield, too humble blah blah.... Beggars belief that people want Rooney or RVP dropped for him. Has no urgency is his play at all and fannies about too much.

I'd stick him wide left as usual and play Rooney off Hernandez. Would drop him all together if we had a winger who wasn't shit.

I was going to post that:lol:
 
This thread has been full of nothing but excuses for as long as I can remember. Can't play on the left, no movement, shit wingers, players don't trust him with the ball, too slow, shit midfield, too humble blah blah.... Beggars belief that people want Rooney or RVP dropped for him. Has no urgency is his play at all and fannies about too much.

I'd stick him wide left as usual and play Rooney off Hernandez. Would drop him all together if we had a winger who wasn't shit.

Can't argue with that....

If he is selected he needs to start showing more of his talent

David Silva pops up all over the pitch for City and his effectiveness isn't dependent on where he plays in the final third

And for Gods sake Shinji have a shot now and again
 
If Kagawa gets a good run of games in the absence of Van Persie as a #10 but fails to perform, do you think he's going to leave next summer?
 
Can't argue with that....

If he is selected he needs to start showing more of his talent

David Silva pops up all over the pitch for City and his effectiveness isn't dependent on where he plays in the final third

And for Gods sake Shinji have a shot now and again
David silva does have 2 box to box midfielders behind him in Yaya toure and fernandinho. They also have a lot of movement in their front 6 which helps players like David silva and kagawa, because they need that type of movement around them to do well. No point having a player like ozil, silva, kagawa, if you have a team that plays static, slow, 1 dimensional football that is just lumping the ball into the box. None of them would work for us.

You're right though, he needs to start taking shots, plays it safe more then he should now because of a lack of confidence I'm guessing.
 
This thread has been full of nothing but excuses for as long as I can remember. Can't play on the left, no movement, shit wingers, players don't trust him with the ball, too slow, shit midfield, too humble blah blah.... Beggars belief that people want Rooney or RVP dropped for him. Has no urgency is his play at all and fannies about too much.

I'd stick him wide left as usual and play Rooney off Hernandez. Would drop him all together if we had a winger who wasn't shit.
That's probably the last thing I'd criticise him for.
 
He's a busy wee fecker. Of course he's 'urgent'.

I think (hope) this period could be the making of him. IF Moyes uses him right. If Welbeck ends up fumbling his way through the middle like a Resident Evil Jimmy Savile, meanwhile Kagawa is stuck being used as a winger, I won't be pleased.
 
"Shinji's sick. He still hasn't recovered physically from the sickness he had. He's just not right," Moyes reported after the 3-0 win on Sunday.
 
If Rooney is willing to play in positions closer to the CM and link up play, won't that make it even tougher for Kagawa to get games there ? I'm saying this because I think Moyes rates Welbeck highly and will play him as much as possible up front during RVP's injury.
 
If Rooney is willing to play in positions closer to the CM and link up play, won't that make it even tougher for Kagawa to get games there ? I'm saying this because I think Moyes rates Welbeck highly and will play him as much as possible up front during RVP's injury.


Probably, but then you think if rooney is gonna start dropping a lot deeper than why not just play him in the middle with Kagawa ahead short term, surely get more from that than with clev in there- suppose it depends on how happy Rooney would be to do that. But yeah you're right will be tough for kagawa especially as with januzaj almost a first choice player now we'll want the other winger to be providing width. Hopefully he's fit to play against Stoke as would be good for him to stake him claim too. Tbf that was Welbecks first good game in a while, need to see if he can keep it up as well.
 
Probably, but then you think if rooney is gonna start dropping a lot deeper than why not just play him in the middle with Kagawa ahead short term, surely get more from that than with clev in there- suppose it depends on how happy Rooney would be to do that. But yeah you're right will be tough for kagawa especially as with januzaj almost a first choice player now we'll want the other winger to be providing width. Hopefully he's fit to play against Stoke as would be good for him to stake him claim too. Tbf that was Welbecks first good game in a while, need to see if he can keep it up as well.

It's difficult for a coach to keep one of his best players happy while asking him to play in position he doesn't fancy. Rooney as a pure CM (instead of Cleverley for instance) could work but I think it's a risk Moyes won't wanna take. He'd be limiting Rooney's influence too, yesterday, he was playing in a position and way that suits the club so much. He could get back and help out defensively and still have enough freedom to create chances and have goalscoring opportunities.
 
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