Shinji Kagawa

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Carl said:
Quite the opposite. Giggs wanted to give debuts to Wilson and Lawrence so there's 2 of the 4 spaces taken. Adnan was due a start so there's 3. Seems to me Giggs played Fellaini up top to try and get him a goal to boost his confidence and end a shit debut season on a high.

Obviously Kagawa was due a game as he was left out completely against Sunderland so he's give him a run out in CM (a position many have said he should be tried in).
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Playing someone for the sake of it, when he is just not suited to a role is bad management. Some players have not featured much, but our season is pretty much finished, and I don't think anyone would complain if they do not get minutes now.

The bit about Fellaini that baffled me was that we did not even use tactics that suited him. We did not play many crosses that he could attack, so his biggest strength was not used. Instead, we were trying to play the ball along the ground, which Fellaini is not suited to, and is very sloppy in that regards. Seemed a pointless change, considering if we wanted to do that, then it would have been better to swap their roles yesterday.
 
Ace of Spades said:
Playing someone for the sake of it, when he is just not suited to a role is bad management. Some players have not featured much, but our season is pretty much finished, and I don't think anyone would complain if they do not get minutes now.

The bit about Fellaini that baffled me was that we did not even use tactics that suited him. We did not play many crosses that he could attack, so his biggest strength was not used. Instead, we were trying to play the ball along the ground, which Fellaini is not suited to, and is very sloppy in that regards. Seemed a pointless change, considering if we wanted to do that, then it would have been better to swap their roles yesterday.
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We won the game = good management
Kagawa and Fellaini will be greatful/thankful for having the opportunity to play a full game = good management

Nothing about it was bad management.
 
Carl said:
We won the game = good management
Kagawa and Fellaini will be greatful/thankful for having the opportunity to play a full game = good management

Nothing about it was bad management.
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Nope, playing players out of position when they are not suited to it is not good management. Just because we won, it does not mean that every decision made was the correct one though. That is simplistic thinking. There can be some poor decisions made, even if the overall result is good.

By your logic then, if we play DDG as a striker, and if we win, that would be considered good management.
 
Ace of Spades said:
Nope, playing players out of position when they are not suited to it is not good management. Just because we won, it does not mean that every decision made was the correct one though. That is simplistic thinking. There can be some poor decisions made, even if the overall result is good.

By your logic then, if we play DDG as a striker, and if we win, that would be considered good management.
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Yes, that's exactly the same :wenger:

Also, there's only 1 player that played out of position and that was Kagawa. Fellaini built his reputation by playing up front.

Just because you disagree with something doesn't make it bad management. I'm sure Giggs is aware Kagawa isn't a CM and Fellaini's future likely isn't up front but it was clearly a piece of man management trying to get Fellaini a goal. It seemed pretty obvious given the way we kept trying to feed him in the box and even the way Kagawa laughed at him when he fluffed the chance that led to the 2nd goal.

I'd even argue that it was brilliant management because not playing Kagawa in CM would have meant we'd have another 90mins of the Carrick Fletcher combo!
 
united_99 said:
Maybe next time we could play him in defence and if he doesn't perform then it might confirm that he really is not good enough ...

It's like playing Silva or Nasri alongside Javi Garcia in midfield!
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Silva would still look class, to be fair.
He's just better than Kagawa.
 
Carl said:
Yes, that's exactly the same :wenger:

Also, there's only 1 player that played out of position and that was Kagawa. Fellaini built his reputation by playing up front.

Just because you disagree with something doesn't make it bad management. I'm sure Giggs is aware Kagawa isn't a CM and Fellaini's future likely isn't up front but it was clearly a piece of man management trying to get Fellaini a goal. It seemed pretty obvious given the way we kept trying to feed him in the box and even the way Kagawa laughed at him when he fluffed the chance that led to the 2nd goal.

I'd even argue that it was brilliant management because not playing Kagawa in CM would have meant we'd have another 90mins of the Carrick Fletcher combo!
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I never said it was the same though, just highlighting the flaws in your reasoning.

Fellaini built his reputation as a target man, but he also played as a CM for Everton in the early part of his time there. We did not use tactics that suited his strengths in that role anyway. Also, Kagawa was not the only one playing out of position, Valencia was as well.

Similarly, just because you agree with something does not make it good management. We can't be sure of anything about what Giggs is thinking, that is just making an assumption. Even if we make that assumption, that still does not explain why Kagawa was played at all then. We have other players that we could have used, and needed some time as well. Cleverley has played even less recently, and he could have been given a run out as well.

It is not brilliant management, no matter how much positive spin you try to put in it. I don't think the Carrick Fletcher combo would have been worse yesterday, and Fletcher was not our only option yesterday. As said before, we could have given Cleverley a chance as well.

Anyways, I am done with this. You don't find anything wrong with it, but I do, and my opinion is not going to change. Lets agree to disagree.
 
SpeakTruth said:
Silva would still look class, to be fair.
He's just better than Kagawa.
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Of course Silva is a much better player than Kagawa, but Silva still would be half the player he usually is if he was playing instead of Kagawa yesterday in our Team.
 
I'm surprised people think Rooney is a better number 10.

In my opinion, Wayne is a better player, he is a top number 9 and even better 9.5 or second striker, and so I do think he could thrive in a 442 like formation with a quality midfield of course behind (necessary if one is to go with 4 as opposed to 5 in midfield), but as a number 10 in the 4411 / 4231 like formations, his preference to simply knock the ball wide and make a run into the box isn't the best way to perform the function of the number 10.

Furthermore, Louis van Gaal might opt for 433 as opposed to 4231. It will be interesting in how he uses Kagawa and Mata, we know Mata is better however I think it makes sense for Kagawa to be his back up if Louis can't get them both in the same team.

Look at Bayern and their number 10s, I don't think there is anything wrong with having quality players like Kagawa as back up, and we can keep him happy by rotating to get him games (he just wouldn't start the big, big games) and also his versatility makes it easier to get him games. If Mata gets injured or shows poor form then give Kagawa his chance.

Effective rotation is important, a player like Kagawa hopefully will be satisfied even if he doesn't play the big, big games on the basis he does get plenty of game time. If we have a mid-week game, freshness is key, we might find a fresh Kagawa is more effective than a slightly tired Mata.
 
Empire said:
I'm surprised people think Rooney is a better number 10.

In my opinion, Wayne is a better player, he is a top number 9 and even better 9.5 or second striker, and so I do think he could thrive in a 442 like formation with a quality midfield of course behind (necessary if one is to go with 4 as opposed to 5 in midfield), but as a number 10 in the 4411 / 4231 like formations, his preference to simply knock the ball wide and make a run into the box isn't the best way to perform the function of the number 10.

Furthermore, Louis van Gaal might opt for 433 as opposed to 4231. It will be interesting in how he uses Kagawa and Mata, we know Mata is better however I think it makes sense for Kagawa to be his back up if Louis can't get them both in the same team.

Look at Bayern and their number 10s, I don't think there is anything wrong with having quality players like Kagawa as back up, and we can keep him happy by rotating to get him games (he just wouldn't start the big, big games) and also his versatility makes it easier to get him games. If Mata gets injured or shows poor form then give Kagawa his chance.

Effective rotation is important, a player like Kagawa hopefully will be satisfied even if he doesn't play the big, big games on the basis he does get plenty of game time. If we have a mid-week game, freshness is key, we might find a fresh Kagawa is more effective than a slightly tired Mata.
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Does Kagawa come on and change games tho...not very often.
 
RedorDead21 said:
Does Kagawa come on and change games tho...not very often.
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To be honest, I think we would have been more effective as a team had Rooney not tried so often to get the ball to Valencia. Don't get me wrong, Valencia is a good player but I do think the tactic wasn't the most effective.

Kagawa seems as though he would be very good as a number 10 and therefore he should be second choice to Mata in my opinion. Rooney should be competing with RVP up top and we should look to sign proper wide attacking midfielders.

Louis van Gaal will be creative, he might even implement some sort of 4-1-4-1 where there are two central positions behind the striker providing he is confident we can cope defensively (such as signing a destroyer to sit and also the second set of four players do work hard defensively also).

With possession based football, there is a lot of flexibility in the set up.
 
Empire said:
I'm surprised people think Rooney is a better number 10.

In my opinion, Wayne is a better player, he is a top number 9 and even better 9.5 or second striker, and so I do think he could thrive in a 442 like formation with a quality midfield of course behind (necessary if one is to go with 4 as opposed to 5 in midfield), but as a number 10 in the 4411 / 4231 like formations, his preference to simply knock the ball wide and make a run into the box isn't the best way to perform the function of the number 10.

Furthermore, Louis van Gaal might opt for 433 as opposed to 4231. It will be interesting in how he uses Kagawa and Mata, we know Mata is better however I think it makes sense for Kagawa to be his back up if Louis can't get them both in the same team.

Look at Bayern and their number 10s, I don't think there is anything wrong with having quality players like Kagawa as back up, and we can keep him happy by rotating to get him games (he just wouldn't start the big, big games) and also his versatility makes it easier to get him games. If Mata gets injured or shows poor form then give Kagawa his chance.

Effective rotation is important, a player like Kagawa hopefully will be satisfied even if he doesn't play the big, big games on the basis he does get plenty of game time. If we have a mid-week game, freshness is key, we might find a fresh Kagawa is more effective than a slightly tired Mata.
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Tell in which part of their game Rooney is inferior to Kagawa. He's stronger, he's more creative (Rooney is an assist machine), he's more comfortable with the ball, he's more hardworking and technically gifted. He's also a better passer of the ball. I am not a Rooney turd but seriously, comparing Rooney to Kagawa is like comparing Giggs with Blomqvist.

The only no 10 that can compete with Rooney is Mata. The Spaniard may not have the physical frame of Rooney but he's technique, creativity and assists makes him a quite remarkable player. He's also well versed to the continental style and can dictate tempo according to the game we're playing in.

I do like Kagawa and I feel sorry for him. Its not his fault that he's playing in a team with possibly two of the best no 10s in the world. When you also consider that we also got Januzaj and young Periera capable to play in that role, it wouldn't be fair to keep him.
 
Empire said:
To be honest, I think we would have been more effective as a team had Rooney not tried so often to get the ball to Valencia. Don't get me wrong, Valencia is a good player but I do think the tactic wasn't the most effective.

Kagawa seems as though he would be very good as a number 10 and therefore he should be second choice to Mata in my opinion. Rooney should be competing with RVP up top and we should look to sign proper wide attacking midfielders.

Louis van Gaal will be creative, he might even implement some sort of 4-1-4-1 where there are two central positions behind the striker providing he is confident we can cope defensively (such as signing a destroyer to sit and also the second set of four players do work hard defensively also).

With possession based football, there is a lot of flexibility in the set up.
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Kagawa is our coutinho...he's glitter but nothing else. Vastly over hyped on here despite not showing anything consistently in 2 years. A squad player who to be honest isnt a great impact sub and not the type to grab a game by the throat. A makeweight for Reus is an obvious move for the club.
 
I like how people keep saying that he should be part of a deal for Reus. Yep, Dortmund are totally going to agree to that. Never mind that their CEO has just recently said that they have enough no.10s already.
 
I still think that he was very very unlucky when he came to us because he was meant to play behind Rooney.

But then came RVP and Fergie tried to play the 3 of them, and so Shinji was out wide.

I like his profile, he's a Manchester United player, he deserved to get a proper chance, but we have Mata, Rooney, RVP up front, and his case is the easiest to solve.

As we're looking for Reus or Hummels I really think that we should use him to lure one of them.
 
I like him off the left for us providing we have movement around him.

He can be very slow and lack imagination at times. Some cases you can say those ahead of him let him down but you can't absolve Kagawa of blame either, he can be very safe and simple - even in his favoured role.

I can see him being shipped out this summer. And as many cases you can make that he's been mismanaged at times, he himself has said he's been disappointed in himself and himself only.
 
That's partly his modesty and partly the necessary self criticism you get from being a professional athlete.

Ill be very interested to see if LVG fancies him. I hope he does. I really hope that if we let him go its because we get a good offer for him, rather than us taking whatever offer for him we can get. There are players we should be looking to push out this summer but he isnt one of them.
 
Kagawa's agent.

"Has Benitez made contact with Kagawa? These are just rumours," Thomas Kroth told Ultimecalcionapoli.it.

"He is not unhappy at Manchester United, so there's no reason to talk about him departing to another club."
 
I can see LvG picking him over Mata and Rooney if he wants a no 10. Kagawa was the best player in the team that beat LvG's Bayern to the title. He's seen 1st hand what he can do.
 
Bader said:
Kagawa's agent.

"Has Benitez made contact with Kagawa? These are just rumours," Thomas Kroth told Ultimecalcionapoli.it.

"He is not unhappy at Manchester United, so there's no reason to talk about him departing to another club."
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Good to hear. It's utterly bizarre that after a run of good form, a poor game as a defensive midfielder in a game that nobody other than Phil Jones cared about has brought about more calls, and shite reasoning while we're at it, for him to leave. It just stinks of an agenda, as if people wait on the wings until he's played poorly so that they can come back in, cock out, and get something off their chest.

All this crap about #10's is exactly that, too. He's an attacking midfielder, one that will excel when around other like-minded ones, like he does at Japan and like he has done in those games played with Mata. Our squad has lacked some fundamental ball skills and technique for a while now, you don't go selling incredibly talented, technically excellent attacking midfielders that have a lot more to show while there remains another 3 or 4 players in these positions that need shifting out first. Building our squad around the talents of Mata and Kagawa and other players that actually play the right way is exactly what we must do. I said it last night, but at worst, he's a squad player. Squad players of this talent are certainly required.
 
This place is mental at times. The abuse Fellaini and Kagawa are getting for yesterday is beyond ridiculous. Lets hope Giggsy plays Clev on the right wing, Young and Welbeck as CMs and Fletch on the left flank vs Southampton so none of the whipping boys end the season without abuse.
 
akash02 said:
Average again. No urgency whatsoever in his game, never has been at United.

Quite rightly isn't first choice as an AM either. All of Januzaj, Rooney and Mata are better.
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Rooney isn't a better AM than Kagawa. Neither is Januzaj yet.
 
devilish said:
Tell in which part of their game Rooney is inferior to Kagawa. He's stronger, he's more creative (Rooney is an assist machine), he's more comfortable with the ball, he's more hardworking and technically gifted. He's also a better passer of the ball. I am not a Rooney turd but seriously, comparing Rooney to Kagawa is like comparing Giggs with Blomqvist.

The only no 10 that can compete with Rooney is Mata. The Spaniard may not have the physical frame of Rooney but he's technique, creativity and assists makes him a quite remarkable player. He's also well versed to the continental style and can dictate tempo according to the game we're playing in.

I do like Kagawa and I feel sorry for him. Its not his fault that he's playing in a team with possibly two of the best no 10s in the world. When you also consider that we also got Januzaj and young Periera capable to play in that role, it wouldn't be fair to keep him.
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Couldnt be further off the mark if you tried. A vast majority of Rooney's assists come from set pieces, not a stats man but if somebody could pull them up, we'd know. He definitely isnt more comfortable with the ball than Kagawa, that's a mental thing to say. Kagawa is much better in tight spaces than Rooney ever has been and is also the better dribbler. I dont know how you define technically gifted so I'l leave this bit. Giggsy and blomqvist bit though, takes the cake.
 
ISSYNAZAR said:
I like him off the left for us providing we have movement around him.

He can be very slow and lack imagination at times. Some cases you can say those ahead of him let him down but you can't absolve Kagawa of blame either, he can be very safe and simple - even in his favoured role.

I can see him being shipped out this summer. And as many cases you can make that he's been mismanaged at times, he himself has said he's been disappointed in himself and himself only.
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I agree mostly but I don't expect him to be sold in the summer. I thought that previously but he's played well since RvP's injury. I think he deserves another year here. I would sell Nani and Young though.
 
akash02 said:
That's your opinion, one that I completely disagree with. I'd prefer Rooney a AM ahead of Kagawa all day long. Same with Januzaj.
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Fair enough. I think Rooney is a better player but not as an attacking midfielder. And I disagree about Januzaj too, remember how much better we looked when him and Kagawa swapped positions at half time against Swansea. Januzaj is better as a winger right now.
 
Yeah, I think someone posted that above. Good to hear anyway, we have enough squad reshaping to do without shipping out players who actually have quality and tend to play pretty well.
 
Empire said:
I'm surprised people think Rooney is a better number 10.

In my opinion, Wayne is a better player, he is a top number 9 and even better 9.5 or second striker, and so I do think he could thrive in a 442 like formation with a quality midfield of course behind (necessary if one is to go with 4 as opposed to 5 in midfield), but as a number 10 in the 4411 / 4231 like formations, his preference to simply knock the ball wide and make a run into the box isn't the best way to perform the function of the number 10.
.
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I feel the same. Rooney's not a great 10.
 
devilish said:
He's a no 10 and we have 2 players who are better then him in that role (Rooney and Mata). We should sell him and bring someone whom we need.
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Rooney's not a better no.10 than Kagawa. Heck I'd rather have Januzaj playing in the hole than Rooney.

He's just a very good striker who can put in a good shift when playing deeper, but doesn't lack the discipline to play in the hole.
 
Timdbro said:
Yeah, I think someone posted that above. Good to hear anyway, we have enough squad reshaping to do without shipping out players who actually have quality and tend to play pretty well.
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I agree It would be crazy to let our best performancer over the past month or so leave, it would just incur needless expenditure in probably the only area we actually don't need to spend in at this time.
 
devilish said:
Tell in which part of their game Rooney is inferior to Kagawa. He's stronger, he's more creative (Rooney is an assist machine), he's more comfortable with the ball, he's more hardworking and technically gifted. He's also a better passer of the ball. I am not a Rooney turd but seriously, comparing Rooney to Kagawa is like comparing Giggs with Blomqvist.

The only no 10 that can compete with Rooney is Mata. The Spaniard may not have the physical frame of Rooney but he's technique, creativity and assists makes him a quite remarkable player. He's also well versed to the continental style and can dictate tempo according to the game we're playing in.

I do like Kagawa and I feel sorry for him. Its not his fault that he's playing in a team with possibly two of the best no 10s in the world. When you also consider that we also got Januzaj and young Periera capable to play in that role, it wouldn't be fair to keep him.
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Rooney's preference to get he ball out wide to Antonio Valencia and move toward the box is not suited to the continental 4231 utilising a number 10 but more suited to a 442 where he would play more as a 9.5.

The 442 is a terrific formation but due to competing with a 5 man midfield, it requires four high quality midfielders that have a strong attacking and defensive work rate. A prime Giggs, Scholes, Keane and Beckham behind Rooney and RVP would be lethal.

Sadly we don't have even one midfielder out of the four at a world class level. For this reason a 5 man midfield seems important, we have tried to play with a CAM or number 10 in front of two that protect the defence.

Rooney's first touch, patience on the ball, ball control in tight spaces and off the ball motion are not at the level one would want from their number 10. And most importantly the function of a number 10 is not to knock the ball to the wings but make use of all the team mates around, the two behind, one in front and two out wide, to be a connecting point between them and get the attacks flowing.

Juan Mata should be the number 10 and Kagawa should be the second choice. Just because Rooney is a better player does not mean he can perform the number 10 function more effectively than Kagawa.
 
Kagawa's reputation as a brilliant number 10 gets inflated with each passing month that he doesn't play as a number 10.

I'm fecking brilliant at golf using that same logic (I hate golf and haven't played since I was in school)
 
I still don't think Kagawa looks out of place playing wide left. He plays there for Japan, because Honda plays the 10 position.

He's combined well with Mata regardless of what starting positions the two of them are in, so it's really just a case of getting players of similar intelligence and style of play.

Watching Kagawa play first time little touches to Fellaini and showing himself for the return pass only to see the Belgian lose the ball through bad anticipation or first touch was annoying last night.
 
I think he's proved in the past that he can be a terrific player...but based on two seasons of being unable to break into the United team in a consistent role he among others is a dispensable player.

It's irrelevant if Ashley Young stays isn't it, because Kagawa is a no.10 isn't he? It's irrelevant if Tom Cleverley stays, because he is considered as a central midfielder isn't he?

Don't get me wrong, I think there is a place for him here and I do like him (largely based on what he did before he came to United may I add) but selling him wouldn't strike me as some huge ridiculous life-changing mistake as some will make out.
 
The squad needs players competing for spots in the team so ill expect to see Kagawa next season to compete for that no. 10 role as so with Mata. Rooney on the other hand either has to convert to a central midfielder or leave tbh. He cant compete as striker because as long RVP is fit he will not get a sniff in the starting line up and cant play in the hole when LVG has got 2 natural and more creative no. 10 players at his disposal.

Anyways LVG knows what Kagawa is capable of, so LVG will analyze him throughout next season and see if he progresses hopefully in his best position and start a squad rotation so Mata and Kagawa can get a fair share of games, unless one of them gains some form. Either way, i think next season will be his last chance to prove himself.
 
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