Shinji Kagawa

[Rozay]

I like how Young not being utterly shit for a whole game counts as "on form"...I'd still rather he wasn't in the line up when we have two players who are technically far superior who can play there.

I don't think that's at all fair personally. I mean, I'd put Young on ebay as quick as his worst critic, but he has certainly not been just better than shite in his last two games.

If you'd like an example of that, look no further than Tom Cleverley. For me, he gets all sorts of lavish praise heaped on him for anything from 5/10 and up. I didn't see a particularly amazing performance against City (nor against Cluj, which is neither here nor there anyway) - but he has been praised as being outstanding. Young was very good for most of the derby, while Clev, for instance, was competent.

 

[Amar__]

Nani can play better than Young has been playing, and he can play worse. So itd depend on form. But yes, Nani is much better than Young and yes, if we could only keep one I would choose Nani.

It's hard to play worse then Young didin couple of games this season..

 

[Carl]

It's hard to play worse then Young didin couple of games this season..

The ones where he'd only just come back from a lengthy spell out?

 

[Platato]

Silva is a playmaker in the purest sense. He's like a Xavi who plays on the wing.

Kagawa is more direct and possesses more goal threat. He can open up a defence with quick one-twos, deft touches and clever movements, he's not the type who would dictate the play and bring players into it ala Silva.

Rooney when fit should always be first choice to play in the 'hole', he has the arrogance to spearhead the attack and overall a better understanding of the game than Kagawa. Kagawa can play on the left-wing where Park used to play. There are actually similarities in their game, so it shouldn't be hard to fit him there.

Did you watch him at Dortmund? He accomplished both of those aspects. Not the archetypal playmaker but he definitely brought others into play. Strange post.

Arrogance? Better understanding? Mate, you're having a mare here. You could argue Wayne has a better understanding of how we play but how does that extend having a better understanding of the game than Kagawa?

Not sure if you have watched the lad but my impression is we're not talking about the same player. His similarities to park are few and far between.

 

[Platato]

The manager's got form for this, Veron when we had Scholes and Keane, Berba when we had Rooney and Tevez.

More likely Kagawa had been a target for a couple of years so was always going to be signed, then in the summer the RVP opportunity came, which was too good to miss, so we ended up signing both.

This isn't a bad thing, gives us more than enough options. It's just impossible to get them all in the same team, all playing in the positions where they're suited best. Especially with the manager loving wingers.

Fergie does what he feel is best for the team. The fact we've gone 4-3-3 in the past shows he's not wholly obsessed with playing our wingers as traditional wingers. I don't think you give Fergie enough credit with this post. Yes he's settled on using a 4-4-2 for some time but I still think he is open to new things. If he wasn't, we wouldn't have bought Shinji.

The reality is this transition to a more dynamic attack is going to take some time. If Kagawa wasn't injured, I think we'd be seeing more signs of it. Unfortunately, he's been out for a while. My hope is that we don't curb his game and make him just play wide like RVP is doing now. Doing so means we forfeit the opportunity to create through the middle. My gut tells me all will be fine and we will use Kagawa correctly whether we start him in the hole or on the wing.

 

[FlawlessThaw]

I don't think that's at all fair personally. I mean, I'd put Young on ebay as quick as his worst critic, but he has certainly not been just better than shite in his last two games.

If you'd like an example of that, look no further than Tom Cleverley. For me, he gets all sorts of lavish praise heaped on him for anything from 5/10 and up. I didn't see a particularly amazing performance against City (nor against Cluj, which is neither here nor there anyway) - but he has been praised as being outstanding. Young was very good for most of the derby, while Clev, for instance, was competent.

Cleverley was wrongly roundedly criticised by the Caf following the Cluj game

 

[Platato]

I don't think that's at all fair personally. I mean, I'd put Young on ebay as quick as his worst critic, but he has certainly not been just better than shite in his last two games.

If you'd like an example of that, look no further than Tom Cleverley. For me, he gets all sorts of lavish praise heaped on him for anything from 5/10 and up. I didn't see a particularly amazing performance against City (nor against Cluj, which is neither here nor there anyway) - but he has been praised as being outstanding. Young was very good for most of the derby, while Clev, for instance, was competent.

And Cleverley was very good as well. In his role. I hope you weren't expecting a dominating performance from him against City because let's be honest, those sorts of things rarely happen. He is also a young midfielder learning his trade. So if you were expecting a major contribution ala an assist or goal, then of course you're going to be disappointed.

Carrick did neither of those things but he had a good game as well. They both did their work quietly and helped initiate our attacks. I'm not sure what more you could ask of them.

 

[Rozay]

And Cleverley was very good as well. In his role. I hope you weren't expecting a dominating performance from him against City because let's be honest, those sorts of things rarely happen. He is also a young midfielder learning his trade. So if you were expecting a major contribution ala an assist or goal, then of course you're going to be disappointed.

Carrick did neither of those things but he had a good game as well. They both did their work quietly and helped initiate our attacks. I'm not sure what more you could ask of them.

I don't think he was bad at all. But I think our willingness for him to do well is causing us to call his performance(s) something it isn't. For me, Clev appears to go on to the pitch with the intention to 'not do anything wrong', which if is the standard, he can say he achieved that on Sunday.

Not trying to have a go at Clev, and I'm not saying he should have run the game against City. I'm just saying he didn't run the game against City. So while he didn't disappoint us, and while I'd be happy if he became a permanent fixture in our midfield, I would just know to myself that it isn't because, as a team, it wouldn't be possible for us to do better. Wilshere's performance against Barcelona, a much better midfield than City's, was geneuinely worthy of getting giddy over. I just feel that given our midfield situation, Clev can just get away with competent performances to be declared the answer of what we need in the middle. I don't think anyone will deny we have lowered the bar as far as a United central midfield is concerned in recent years. Cleverley meets that bar, and again, I like him. I just think that, while I have seen him have some genuinely good games, most of the ones that get lauded are more 'good enough' than 'very good'.

When we actually get a really fecking top drawer midfielder one of these days you lot are going to be over the moon!

 

[MrMojo]

Fergie does what he feel is best for the team. The fact we've gone 4-3-3 in the past shows he's not wholly obsessed with playing our wingers as traditional wingers. I don't think you give Fergie enough credit with this post. Yes he's settled on using a 4-4-2 for some time but I still think he is open to new things. If he wasn't, we wouldn't have bought Shinji.

The reality is this transition to a more dynamic attack is going to take some time. If Kagawa wasn't injured, I think we'd be seeing more signs of it. Unfortunately, he's been out for a while. My hope is that we don't curb his game and make him just play wide like RVP is doing now. Doing so means we forfeit the opportunity to create through the middle. My gut tells me all will be fine and we will use Kagawa correctly whether we start him in the hole or on the wing.

It's not about giving the manager credit or not, it's just a matter of being realistic after watching him manage for 20years. He's likes wingers, always has. Playing 433 a handful of times and in most cases switching back to a traditional 442 when it doesn't work just reinforces that point.

I want him in the team as well, playing in his favoured role but there's just one too many top class forwards for this to happen, coupled with the managers winger preference.

I expect him to get a good amount of game time but it's going to be difficult for Kagawa to nail down a starting spot every week ala Rooney and RVP.

 

[bosnian_red]

I always felt since the start of the season that our best lineup was a 4-2-3-1 with nani-Rooney-kagawa behind rvp. Still think it is, although I doubt we'll be seeing it with nani most likely off. Still though, young has been really good these past 2 games and he deserves his spot at the moment but don't kid yourself into thinking this will last. This is Ashley young after all, and his good form is bound to end sooner rather then later. Once he loses form I expect kagawa will make the step up and make that left wing position his own, rotating with Rooney in the middle. Our wingers will be fighting for the right wing position as I don't see either of them having that great of a season to be honest.

 

[KiD MoYeS]

de Gea
Rafael
Ferdinand
Vidic
Evra
Cleverley
Carrick
Valencia
Rooney
Kagawa
van Persie

Think that's our strongest eleven, with everyone fit.

 

[Adebesi]

I always felt since the start of the season that our best lineup was a 4-2-3-1 with nani-Rooney-kagawa behind rvp.

I reckon SAF agrees with this, but Phelan wont let him do it.

 

[Adebesi]

I still feel a bit mystified about how and why everyone else on here seems to be so convinced about Kagawa that they confidently put him in a list of our strongest XI, when I feel I have not had enough opportunity to see him play to be even close to being able to make such a judgement. Evidently I am in a minority of people on here who dont watch the Bundesliga every week.

 

[KiD MoYeS]

I still feel a bit mystified about how and why everyone else on here seems to be so convinced about Kagawa that they confidently put him in a list of our strongest XI, when I feel I have not had enough opportunity to see him play to be even close to being able to make such a judgement. Evidently I am in a minority of people on here who dont watch the Bundesliga every week.

In fairness, who would you have in there ahead of him? In the final third anyway, van Persie and Rooney are dead certs up front, Valencia and Young have hardly been brilliant.

 

[Widnes]

I would probably use Kagawa from a wide left position, think he is probably best in the hole but we have Rooney for that and I still think the best we have played all season was the 2nd half v Spurs after we took Giggs off. Kagawa down the left, Nani down the right and Rooney RVP up front our 4 most technical players on the pitch together.

 

[Adebesi]

Well Valencia is in your list. And Nani in Bosnian's. So you can have them both in there without Kagawa. Or you could make a formation that had Welbeck in there somewhere, instead of Kagawa. Or you could chuck another midfielder on - Anderson, perhaps - giving you 433 with Nani, Rooney and RVP up front.

There are plenty of teams you could put out without Kagawa in it.

I am sure you are all right, by the way. I just dont feel like I have seen it yet, so I am surprised so many others on here have.

 

[KiD MoYeS]

Well Valencia is in your list. And Nani in Bosnian's. So you can have them both in there without Kagawa. Or you could make a formation that had Welbeck in there somewhere, instead of Kagawa. Or you could chuck another midfielder on - Anderson, perhaps - giving you 433 with Nani, Rooney and RVP up front.

There are plenty of teams you could put out without Kagawa in it.

I am sure you are all right, by the way. I just dont feel like I have seen it yet, so I am surprised so many others on here have.

I suspect Nani won't be with us too much longer. I didn't see much of Kagawa at Dortmund to be honest, I just know my Dad rates him, and he's the hardest bastard to please when it comes to United players.

 

[Adebesi]

Fair enough. If Dad Cunto likes him, I am even more eager to have him back. Dadebesi knows even less about Kagawa than I do. But Dadebesi has some strange opinions about United players that I do not subscribe to at all. So Ill go with your dad over mine.

 

[Brightonian]

de Gea
Rafael
Ferdinand
Vidic
Evra
Cleverley
Carrick
Valencia
Rooney
Kagawa
van Persie

Think that's our strongest eleven, with everyone fit.

Assuming everyone was in form, and defining 'in form' as playing as well as they have for a decent run of games over the last three years, and discounting anyone who's been injured for more of that three years than not, I'd edit that slightly to this:

De Gea
Rafael
Ferdinand
Evans
Evra
Carrick
Cleverley
Valencia/Nani
Rooney
Kagawa
RVP

I just don't think we know how good Vidic is at the moment. Big injury, a few games where he looked understandably rusty, then another big injury. Given that he's at an age where most defenders start to slowly decline, we just don't know his current level.

For me, a fit and in form Nani and a fit and in form Valencia are pretty much equal. Completely different styles and roles, of course, but there's not a hair between them in terms of what they contribute to the team.

I was originally going to include Anderson as an alternative to either Kagawa or the wingers, changing the formation in either case. But much as I would still love to, I realised that he just doesn't fit the criteria. He's been injured for more of the last few years than he's been fit, really, and he's not managed to put together a decent run of games. Though this season that has more to do with Fergie not playing him enough when he was fit.

 

[Adebesi]

I just don't think we know how good Vidic is at the moment. Big injury, a few games where he looked understandably rusty, then another big injury.

How can we not know how good Vidic is on the back of a couple of injuries, but we know how good Kagawa is, in a new league, with a new team, and with our best player established in his favourite position?

This is what I am getting at above. I am a little worried about what is going to happen with Kagawa. Not really worried. Not like I strongly believe it isnt going to work out. But certainly hesitant about counting my chickens.

BTW, to be absolutely clear. I agree with your reasoning about Vidic (though I am confident he will dispel these worries in due course). I am more using it to illustrate concerns about Kagawa.

 

[Tomuś]

de Gea
Rafael
Ferdinand
Vidic
Evra
Cleverley
Carrick
Valencia
Rooney
Kagawa
van Persie

Think that's our strongest eleven, with everyone fit.

This. Bit harsh on Evans (we don't know if Vidic can be the player he was) and Nani (Valencia gives us better balance). Still I'd go with this probably.

 

[Brightonian]

How can we not know how good Vidic is on the back of a couple of injuries, but we know how good Kagawa is, in a new league, with a new team, and with our best player established in his favourite position?

This is what I am getting at above. I am a little worried about what is going to happen with Kagawa. Not really worried. Not like I strongly believe it isnt going to work out. But certainly hesitant about counting my chickens.

BTW, to be absolutely clear. I agree with your reasoning about Vidic (though I am confident he will dispel these worries in due course). I am more using it to illustrate concerns about Kagawa.

Fair enough, it's a legitimate concern. Having watched him a lot for Dortmund, I'm not worried. But it's not based on anything particularly rational, just a gut feeling. I don't see him as a Rooney type whose worst form is as bad as his best is good. He looks the sort who'll always put in a decent performance, even if he's not having his best game.

 

[Adebesi]

Fair enough, it's a legitimate concern. Having watched him a lot for Dortmund, I'm not worried. But it's not based on anything particularly rational, just a gut feeling. I don't see him as a Rooney type whose worst form is as bad as his best is good. He looks the sort who'll always put in a decent performance, even if he's not having his best game.

I do take some encouragement from that.

I hope he is back soon, its a bit like when you get given a Christmas present but when you open it it needs particular batteries that you dont have, and nothing is open because its Christmas and you are visiting relatives in the middle of nowhere, and you have to wait ages before you can get them and actually start playing with it.

 

[Rooney in Paris]

de Gea
Rafael
Ferdinand
Vidic
Evra
Cleverley
Carrick
Valencia
Rooney
Kagawa
van Persie

Think that's our strongest eleven, with everyone fit.

When fit, I'd just swap Ando for Cleverley in there, but it's pretty much spot on yeah. I'm really looking forward to Kagawa coming back into the team, now that Rooney and RvP are a bit more settled, I think he himself will find it easier to blend into the team (depending, of course, on how SAF decides to line everyone up).

 

[bosnian_red]

I still feel a bit mystified about how and why everyone else on here seems to be so convinced about Kagawa that they confidently put him in a list of our strongest XI, when I feel I have not had enough opportunity to see him play to be even close to being able to make such a judgement. Evidently I am in a minority of people on here who dont watch the Bundesliga every week.

He hasn't been anything special for us yet, moreso because he's been injured most of the time so I see why you'd have your reservations having not seen much of him last season. If you had though, you'd understand why so many rate him. He's played on the left many times as people have said, and last season he was one the the best players in the bundesliga, and dortmunds best player. Probably the main reason why they won the double. German league to premier league isn't exactly a huge step up or anything, so I don't think it would take him long to adjust at all he's already shown patches of how good he can be, and his close control is as good as anybody's in the team.

Also the reason I had nani and not Valencia in my strongest 11 was because at their best I think they are equal, but nani is much more versatile, which would be very useful in that front four.

 

[Platato]

I don't think he was bad at all. But I think our willingness for him to do well is causing us to call his performance(s) something it isn't. For me, Clev appears to go on to the pitch with the intention to 'not do anything wrong', which if is the standard, he can say he achieved that on Sunday.

Not trying to have a go at Clev, and I'm not saying he should have run the game against City. I'm just saying he didn't run the game against City. So while he didn't disappoint us, and while I'd be happy if he became a permanent fixture in our midfield, I would just know to myself that it isn't because, as a team, it wouldn't be possible for us to do better. Wilshere's performance against Barcelona, a much better midfield than City's, was geneuinely worthy of getting giddy over. I just feel that given our midfield situation, Clev can just get away with competent performances to be declared the answer of what we need in the middle. I don't think anyone will deny we have lowered the bar as far as a United central midfield is concerned in recent years. Cleverley meets that bar, and again, I like him. I just think that, while I have seen him have some genuinely good games, most of the ones that get lauded are more 'good enough' than 'very good'.

When we actually get a really fecking top drawer midfielder one of these days you lot are going to be over the moon!

Aye that's fair mate. Wilshire is more comfortable expressing his game than Cleverley. That much is clear and until Tom comes out of his shell more, we won't really know how good he can be. Like I said before, I think he's got the right mentality though. In a team like Arsenal, it's easier to express yourself. With this being Cleverley's first real season for us, I'm sure he wants to make sure he's established in the team.

About signing a top drawer midfielder, give me a ring if that ever happens. I expect a very good signing at the most.

 

[Platato]

It's not about giving the manager credit or not, it's just a matter of being realistic after watching him manage for 20years. He's likes wingers, always has. Playing 433 a handful of times and in most cases switching back to a traditional 442 when it doesn't work just reinforces that point.

I want him in the team as well, playing in his favoured role but there's just one too many top class forwards for this to happen, coupled with the managers winger preference.

I expect him to get a good amount of game time but it's going to be difficult for Kagawa to nail down a starting spot every week ala Rooney and RVP.

It is his default, I'll give you that. We'll just have to see mate but I'm inclined to agree with you. I do feel if a 4-3-3 is best for the team then Fergie will begrudgingly change towards that. The worst thing we could do with Kagawa is force him to adopt to our wing play to the point where we nullify his threat through the middle. Not sure why I feel this way but I really hope it doesn't happen.

 

[Platato]

I do take some encouragement from that.

I hope he is back soon, its a bit like when you get given a Christmas present but when you open it it needs particular batteries that you dont have, and nothing is open because its Christmas and you are visiting relatives in the middle of nowhere, and you have to wait ages before you can get them and actually start playing with it.

For me, when it comes to young players, especially gifted ones, I tend to look for little signs of genius that signify to me, he's got "it". When Kagawa scored that goal against Spurs with a sweet little turn and finish, I knew then he could be something special for us. Seen him at Dortmund and he's quite the player when you keep players close to him moving around.

Kagawa's a team player. Many compared him with Hazard since they play similar positions but Hazard is more likely to take his man on than Kagawa would. That's why he didn't look so great at the start of the season. He was settling in and we weren't playing very well as a team. With other players starting to pick up form, when he comes back in the team, there will be much more movement for him to work with. I can't wait to see him return but I don't expect to start like a house on fire just yet. He's been out for some time. It's the luxury of watching games a second time. You really start to notice players' habits.

 

[Dargonk]

I still feel a bit mystified about how and why everyone else on here seems to be so convinced about Kagawa that they confidently put him in a list of our strongest XI, when I feel I have not had enough opportunity to see him play to be even close to being able to make such a judgement. Evidently I am in a minority of people on here who dont watch the Bundesliga every week.

I'm in the same boat really. He has been good for us so far, but hasn't really had a chance to really shine due to injuries or really show us what he is actually capable. Saying that like you I haven't watched any of the Bundesliga so didn't know anything about him before we signed him.

Hopefully once he is back, he can show people like me and you what all these others that have apparently seen in him for United.

 

[Brightonian]

As a rule of thumb those who are confident about him coming good have watched him a lot for Dortmund, and those who are a bit unsure haven't. Which is no slight on the latter, but surely a good sign.

On the Wilshere comparison, I don't think there's much shame in not being as good as Wilshere (which I agree Tom isn't quite). Wilshere has the potential to be world-leading in his position. Who else has gone into a game featuring Barca's Xavi-Iniesta-Busquets triad and been regarded as the match's best midfielder? And at the age of what, 20?

 

[wonnie]

I have high hopes for Kagawa - he just ticks too many boxes to not be a success here. By the time the knockout stages come around he will be fairly well acclimatised and fit, and key to our European hopes.

Can line up on the left of a 4-4-2/4-2-3-1 or gives us a great option when we want to rest RVP/Rooney.

 

[wonnie]

I'm in the same boat really. He has been good for us so far, but hasn't really had a chance to really shine due to injuries or really show us what he is actually capable. Saying that like you I haven't watched any of the Bundesliga so didn't know anything about him before we signed him.

Hopefully once he is back, he can show people like me and you what all these others that have apparently seen in him for United.

With some players you just get an inkling... and Kagawa for me is one of them. So much class on the ball, drops into pockets of space, combines well with his teammates, killer through ball and can finish himself too.

When we play a straight 4-4-2 with Rooney/RVP up top and orthodox wingers he may not make the XI but Europe he will really shine I think.

With Kagawa you get the feeling its not always 100% full throttle like when Rooney plays the AMC/AML role but a bit more calculated and intricate... very Silva esque which will be ideal for Europe.

 

[Trigg]

I just hope we can get the best out of him because we haven't really done that in the games he's played so far for us. Which is a shame because he's a quality footballer.

 

[kps88]

Fergie's teasing us again. From having a chance to be on the bench against City, he's now gone to "starting full training on Monday".

 

[KingEric7]

Easy to forget we have this absolutely quality footballer just waiting to come back into the team. I just hope we find a place for him in the team and that his injury hasn't unsettled his introduction to the club too much.

 

[Tomuś]

As a rule of thumb those who are confident about him coming good have watched him a lot for Dortmund, and those who are a bit unsure haven't. Which is no slight on the latter, but surely a good sign.

On the Wilshere comparison, I don't think there's much shame in not being as good as Wilshere (which I agree Tom isn't quite). Wilshere has the potential to be world-leading in his position. Who else has gone into a game featuring Barca's Xavi-Iniesta-Busquets triad and been regarded as the match's best midfielder? And at the age of what, 20?

Wilshere played then like any CM from a top club should be playing against them. Didn't shit himself. Opposite CMs tend to forget that Xavi-Iniesta-Busquets are still human-beings and go totally shit against them. Granted they're better than you most of the time, but no world-class/potentially world-class, self-respecting CM should be made look as poor as our and many other clubs' midfielders have been.

Still his performance was rated so highly due to his team-mates' liability on the day. He had to try it all on his own, in opposition to Barca's CMs, which obviously doesn't mean he was 'the best midfielder that day'.

 

[Ruud10]

I'm not that worried about where Kagawa will fit in. He comes across as the kind of player who will do whatever the manager asks of him and do it well. As with all other attacking players, the manager will want to try different things to see where he can get the most productivity out of the side as a whole. For some, that may have Kagawa on the bench. But I can easily see Rooney and Kagawa together. We'll just have to see what Fergie pulls out every week against the Sunderlands and the Wigans to figure out what might work best against better quality opponents.

 

[rOnaldo[7]]

is this lad back already?

 

[100]

Starts full training tomorrow according to SAF.

 

[gooDevil]

So he's two weeks away.