Welbeck or Hernandez you dummy.
Shinji Kagawa
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Welbeck or Hernandez you dummy.
So he managed to be 2nd on the list of top scorers without even playing up front, but rather in the hole behind Welbeck or Hernandez.
Well that's quite something for Kagawa to live up to since apparently he's better playing that role.
I think the problem for us here is that you are making a point without really making it clear how you'd expect us to play. By looking over your points, it seems to me that you are suggesting 2 forwards - Van Persie and Rooney - but then you've said that there will be no-one linking attack and midfield. Rooney did do this last year with Welbeck further ahead than him, which is what seems confusing.
How do you suggest we should line up as a whole? Not criticising by any means, I'm just not sure what you are suggesting.
I did mention playing a 4-4-2 with Rooney and Van Persie up top.
As for the link between midfield and attack, surely having two players who were among the top 10 assistents last season on the wings will be enough, especially since the strikers themselves have a peerless ability to drop deep.
I think there's an irrational fear of the 4-4-2 system doing the rounds of modern football
I don't think its clear Kagawa is better as a 10 just yet, yes he has different attributes but Rooney is a far more accomplished player. Rooney has yet to play with RVP up top and I think he will run riot as he is our best player imho.
Ah, you're misunderstanding me. I think Rooney is great "in the hole" but I don't think we'll play 4-4-1-1 in the biggest games this year, we'll play a 4-5-1 or 4-3-3 like we tried to in the last CL final, the difference being that Rooney will be moved up top or out wide as Kagawa will offer more to the midfield in these games.
I'm almost certain Kagawa is SAF's missing piece for these games, the reason he wanted Nasri & Sneijder too.
Edit: just noticed that you think we'll play 4-4-2 in the big games, this I just can't see.
Hmm, fair enough view. My view is that I simply cannot help but think that if Kagawa is fit, he plays. He's too good not to and offers a unique threat and option - an option that in today's game is very important and prevalent. Every top team has a player of this ilk - Ozil for Madrid, Silva for City, Iniesta for Barcelona etc. A player that can receive the ball under pressure in central areas and provide a threat through the middle, and someone who can also come in from the wings doing damage and play the killer ball. It seems clear to me that with Van Persie and Rooney up top, one would be consistently dropping deep anyway, perhaps even leading to both taking turns doing so (especially given that our best midfielder, Carrick, will be more defensive). It seems better to me then that we have one person who is more suited to doing that than both of them whilst still having a consistent goal scoring threat.
It also helps out a midfield which, by the admission of a fair few people on here, isn't strong enough. It allows us a better control of the game, in my opinion. Still, it's all a bit difficult to say now. I bet even Ferguson doesn't know what he's going to do for big games when all players are fit. With Rooney's injury, it seems obvious for now that he'll play Kagawa in behind Van Persie.
If those two really hit it off together, Rooney could be in trouble!
Edit: I think the other important point is that this makes us less reliant on our wingers. It's been said a lot, but playing Kagawa actually adds a whole new dimension to our team. With Van Persie's movement and Kagawa's vision, the line-up seems a lot more balanced and varied.
He played in the hole last season, and the season before last lots, silly!
When was the last time you were able to actually watch a match, mate?
Of course Kagawa's never going to be able to bang in 25-30 odd goals a season playing in the hole.
Firstly, Rooney was more of the guy just behind the striker in a 4411.
Kagawa's more of the guy playing in the '1' in a 4213. He's not as advanced as Rooney, and helps more in midfield.
Secondly, Rooney got around 6 assists in the league last season; not all his fault. Firstly, he's not the 'creative' type to keep spamming through balls etc. and secondly, it was clear Rooney's main job was to get the ball to the wingers (i.e. Valencia), and then for the winger to put in a cross from a dangerous position (ideally beat the full back and cross it in from the byline) onto Mr. Rooneys head/foot and then Rooney to dispatch it.
I'm sure Rooney would've got a lot of 'assist in the assister' same with Carrick and Scholes (Carrick got about 2 goals and 3 assists, whereas he fed Valencia, Nani and Young heaps of the ball in the final third).
Also, cause Welbeck's finishing is absolutely horrid, most of the time Rooney did feed Welbeck the ball in a good position, it was wasted. With Hernandez in the 2010/11 season, Rooney would've had far more assists probably, by feeding Hernandez in.
That said, Kagawa's going to create far more chances directly himself (for others), than Rooney. Whereas Rooney's main threat was scoring himself (NO-ONE scored near as many as he did without being the main striker, bar Ronaldo last season), and feeding the wingers (who generally gave him the ball back to score via a cross); Kagawa's will be to chip in with a decent amount of goals (no where near the amount Wayne did though), a decent amount of balls to the wingers (again, far less than Wayne did), and a lot of balls through the middle, as well as to assert more control by helping the midfield out more than Rooney. Kagawa will and is playing deeper than Rooney generally did, and thus can't be expected to contribute as many goals.
Rooney pretty much always opted to play a Carrick/Scholes-esque pass to the wing when he got the ball, and then nodded/kicked home a goal from the resulting cross; he helped us attack by assisting the assister.
Kagawa's a more direct assister, but won't be in the box to head in as many goals; although he will shoot a fair few from the box. He's also playing deeper than Rooney, and can actually feed in the likes of Rooney/RvP/Hernandez/Welbeck centrally with through balls far better than Rooney, and help the midfield more (putting less pressure on the '2' central midfielders, who'll in turn have more freedom to break forward as Kagawa can properly cover them). With the ridiculously high finishing percentages of Rooney/RvP/Hernandez (all above 25% last season, Hernandez almost 30% of shots ending up as goals!), we ought to see them scoring a lot more. Although I believe Welbeck's was well under 10 ;/.
For me, our best attacking players are RvP, Rooney, Kagawa, Valencia and Nani.
However, we can only play 4 of them at the same time in our 4213 (similar to 4231).
It's natural to play 2 wingers, 1 CAM and 1 striker (hence either Rooney / RvP missing out when we play Kagawa in the '1'). However, as Rooney/RvP are our best players, I can see something like this..
-----Rooney--RvP---------Valencia/Nani
-----------Kagawa
With Evra helping provide the width on the LHS, and Rooney/RvP/Kagawa constantly interchanging.
In fact, thats what SAF tried to do vs Everton. Rooney, RvP and Nani (later subbed for Young who did exactly the same) all played left, right and central (except Nani/Young never went central, only left/right). Interestingly, Kagawa was the only one who stayed in his position!
It's a lopsided 4213, similar to what Madrid have (With CR7 playing quite a central left forward).
Either way, it's competition, but I'm sure SAF has a way to include Rooney/RvP/Kagawa and another.
Heck, for our easier home games, we can afford to go.
----Rooney--RvP----
Nani--------------Valencia
------Kagawa-----------
---------Carrick---------
-Evra--Vidic-Rio---Rafael
I'm ok with that, but I wouldn't put Kagawa in the same bracket as Iniesta, Ozil or Silva. Not yet anyway.
The way I see it we have the two best strikers in the league, so yeah how about playing them.
We will, in many games in a 4-4-2. But when we play the likes of City and they pack the midfield, I very much doubt we'll do it.
Sorry for not being in touch with the latest evolutions of modern football tactics. There I was thinking Rooney was most efficient played as a 1 1/2 in a 3-2-3-2 kind of scheme.See, I'm more of the following type (and more importantly, Sir Alex also is):
Vibhas said:
Indeed, so is Rooney to blame for that?
Vibhas said:
That's just a rubbish, sweeping assessment of Rooney's all-round play. The guy was even able to play in central midfield FFS.
I actually wasn't as impressed with him this game as I have been in the pre-season and the Everton game. His passes were too soft or too hard, leading to us losing the ball. He also wasn't quite as courageous when he was on the ball as previously seen. Too often he passed it back when he received it rather than turn and run into the open space - which Cleverley did very well.
Still, his ability to find space is amazing, and it pains me whenever the players ignore him and instead chooses the rigid and safe approach.
Still, his ability to find space is amazing, and it pains me whenever the players ignore him and instead chooses the rigid and safe approach.
Wouldn't put Ozil or Silva in the same bracket as Iniesta either, to be fair. The guy is incredible. Would do dreadful things to see him in this team.
I don't think it's outrageous at this point to say that Kagawa based on last season and the way he's slipped seamlessly into this team (looking like an absolutely quality player in the process) to say that he's of a similar standard to Silva and Ozil. He was marvellous against Bayern Munich last year, who are a far better team than the vast majority of teams in this league.
We will see how he performs this year though, to be fair. He could be massively underwhelming from here on in for all we know.
I think it's clear Kagawa is a better #10, in terms of for the team.
I also think Rooney's our best player.
I did say 'until then' that's our lineup. (i.r. until rooney's fit)
I want Rooney to play at least 40 games a season for us, with a few rests because we have so much quality; and he's still 'the' star.
I don't think any attacker in our team will have THAT many starts though; Nani another great player, was dropped after a single game, it's Kagawa's first season, and injuries will no doubt happen.
Rooney and RvP and a winger can start with Kagawa in a 4213 which we've been playing; as highlighted by my above post..
I don't really think Rooney played all that deep for the past 2 seasons, probably 3 really considering that season he played as the main man. Last 2 years he would occasionally drop or slot in to the midfield when we were under pressure and didn't have the ball, but he's not played a proper am/ in the hole, role regularly imo in years. Like I said there have been a few games where he noticeably has such as the Chelsea games 2 years ago, but last season in particular I don't think he did. 1 of he and Welbeck would naturally drop a bit deeper as it's rare you would have 2 strikers really pushing up on the centre backs anyway, but neither player anywhere near in the same positions that Kagawa has in his two games here or interchanged with the midfield as much. I mean Rooney got a lot of goals last year but only 4 assists I think.
If we want to develop the team I think we need to have someone playing in the hole/am on a regular basis. Both to give an extra dimension to the attack and to help bring the midfielders in to the game, not to mention stop them from being outnumbered on a regular basis. Rooney used to be at his best in this position, personally I think he's now best as the main striker but if we want to make full use of RVP and Rooney then I think he'll have to re-discover his form there. But if not Kagawa looks like he'll fit the bill. Got a few games now where he and RVP could build a great partnership.
If we want to develop the team I think we need to have someone playing in the hole/am on a regular basis. Both to give an extra dimension to the attack and to help bring the midfielders in to the game, not to mention stop them from being outnumbered on a regular basis. Rooney used to be at his best in this position, personally I think he's now best as the main striker but if we want to make full use of RVP and Rooney then I think he'll have to re-discover his form there. But if not Kagawa looks like he'll fit the bill. Got a few games now where he and RVP could build a great partnership.
That film was amazing, by the way.
Every single England manager that ever gets the job should be strapped to a chair as some sort of induction and forced to watch that several times. It's crazy that half of the stuff in it still applies even now.
Every single England manager that ever gets the job should be strapped to a chair as some sort of induction and forced to watch that several times. It's crazy that half of the stuff in it still applies even now.
I agree, early days. I think he'll turn into a tidy player but not as good as the two you mentioned.
Anyway the upcoming month will be important for him as he will have a guaranteed spot in the first 11 with Rooney's injury, and get the opportunity to show how he can interact with Van Persie on a consistent basis against a few good teams.
See, I'm more of the following type (and more importantly, Sir Alex also is):
Indeed, so is Rooney to blame for that?
That's just a rubbish, sweeping assessment of Rooney's all-round play. The guy was even able to play in central midfield FFS.
No it isn't.
I love Rooney as a player, he's one of the top 5-6 players in the world for me.
However, it's clear as day that he's a far different #10 than Kagawa, and possibly it's not his best position.
Rooney as a #10, was focussed on playing the ball to the winger last season, and anyone here will tell you that. He didn't play very many central balls to Welbeck last season, and when he did Welbeck generally fecked it up.
I said 'he pretty much always' opted for the ball to Valencia (or Nani/Young) when he was 30 yards from goal. Rarely, he took a shot on from there (and scored 6 outside the box, his most in a single season) but that was far from the norm, and he tended not to play too many through balls (Whereas Kagawa plays several every match).
Kagawa's more of a central player, who can score, can pass to the wing with an expansive long distance pass, but tends to help out in midfield and play cute 1-2's lots, with more than a couple through balls, and likes to beat his man a fair few times.
Rooney ran sometimes at defences, but tended to play to our wingers, and then provided a lot of the direct assists. With KAgawa, we'll rely less on them
a) As they'll be getting the ball lesser
b) Because we'll have a #10 who plays the ball central a lot more often
c) Because we won't have a 2 man midfield, with both players often sitting back
I'm not discussing Rooney v Kagawa as a #10, I've been discussing Rooney as a striker from the onset. I want, and I think we'll get, a Rooney-Van Persie partnership in a 4-4-2 setup on the big occasions this season. I just cannot imagine one of them being benched when we are facing the Chelseas and Citys of this league.
Your arguments are flawed anyway, you say Rooney is good at distributing the ball on the wings but somehow would not manage to adapt his passing to the central presence of Van Persie in front of him, despite indeed delivering perfect central passes to Welbeck on numerous occasions last season (in your words).
You honestly think we'll face Barcelona (if we meet them) and City at Wastelands with a 4-4-2
Not a chance for me.
I doubt one will be benched too, like when Ronnie was here I think Rooney or RVP may have to take up a different role.
Really can't see Rooney and RVP in a 442 in the big games. It will either be 4411/4231 or a 433. We've already struggled in big games in the past because we let a big gap appear between the midfield and the strikers and playing an actual 442 would make that worse. Makes more sense that it will either be Rooney dropping deeper or Rooney on the left and Kagawa in the middle.
I said when he did manage to put in some central balls they were generally wasted, but Kagawa's much much better at the central through balls than Rooney.. don't see how that's flawed.
I also don't think we'll go 442 against City or Chelsea. We'll get bossed in midfield, especially by City. IMO, 4213 is the way to go to accommodate our best players, and 442 is a bit dated against top competition. In fact, I'd go as far as to say 442 is far LESS likely against them, than it is normally.
When did i say he can't manage to adapt to RvP ahead of him? I merely said Kagawa would be better behind the striker than Rooney would. I'd much rather see a fluid front 4 of RvP, Rooney, Kagawa and Nani, or a fluid front 3 when Valencia displaces Nani.
All I've been saying is what Ash and I'm always right have been, albeit in a more detailed (and far more verbose!) way, as is my wont.
You honestly think we'll face Barcelona (if we meet them) and City at Wastelands with a 4-4-2
Not a chance for me.
Well we did field a 4-4-2 against Barcelona in the Champions' League final so I can certainly see Fergie doing it against Arsenal, Chelsea or City for that matter (regardless of how it turned out at Wembley, which would have probably been the same with a 4-5-1 or even 4-7-1 for that matter). I don't know what's wrong with people's perceptions of 4-4-2, if you have two such strikers at your disposal that is.
Well that is where we differ, see I do not think Kagawa is as influential as Cristiano Ronaldo was to be able to push Rooney to the left wing. We'll see but I doubt it.
These are most people's traditional views of 4-4-2 vs. 4-5-1, to which I'd subscribe under normal circumstances but not anymore with both Rooney and Van Persie in our midst.
He wasn't as good as in the Everton game and lost the ball a few times or played a few hospital balls. Also, chose to pass it back far too quickly sometimes (taking the one touch thing a bit far at times). One instance was during a counter, when he had all the time to turn and pick out someone on the wing himself he instead chose to 'one-touch' it back to Cleverly for him to make a longer pass to the same free man... costing us a few seconds.
Still, he was one of the people who kept us ticking and I'm sure he'll get better and better
Still, he was one of the people who kept us ticking and I'm sure he'll get better and better
--Aaaand Fergie did say it was a mistake to play 2 midfielders against 3, let alone Xavi and Iniesta (and Busquets) in the CL final against Barcelona.
He said that even if there was a massive gulf in class (i.e. individually the '2' is far better than the '3') then it's still almost impossible to win the midfield battle for the '2' but when faced with those midfielders we couldn't win the battle (let alone Barca's style of play which means they play with a shit GK, and 10 central midfielders almost!)
I know that, but what I do not know, and neither do you, is how this would have panned out with Van Persie playing rather than Hernandez.
I think the probability of that system being harmful to Barça's shaky defence would have been higher than the probability of a 5-man midfield withstanding Barça's possession, even with Kagawa in the side.
Who said it would be Rooney? RVP has also played part of his career out wide.
As I said, SAF has been trying to get a player like Kagawa (Nasri, Sneijder) for a while now, it's my belief that he wants/wanted that for the big games against the teams that flood midfield.
Same thing though, I doubt Kagawa will be influential enough to push the PL top scorer to the left wing.
And that's saying more about Van Persie (& Rooney)'s quality than Kagawa's lack thereof.
I would be surprised if Rooney or RVP go wide. Just doesn't make sense not when we have Nani and Valencia who are much better out wide, not to mention Kagawa. I would like to see kagawa in the middle for big games but practically it makes sense for Fergie to try and involve both rooney and rvp where he can and the best way he can do that imo, is RVP up top, Rooney in the hole and Kagawa drifting in from the left. On paper that is probably the best solution, whether it works is down to Rooney playing deeper that he has in the last few seasons and being effective there imo.
But it not about who's better/more influential, it's about what works better for the team, and in the formation we're likely to play against the likes of City who pack the midfield, Kagawa will be used, I'm sure.
As I said, when we had 30 minutes against Everton with Rooney and RvP on, Rooney and RvP both played all across the final third (front, left and central).
Nani played left and right and when he was replaced by Young, Young played left and right.
Rooney and RvP when playing together will be allowed to float our in our 4213. We may only use 1 winger for actual width (Obviously, that winger will play on the right as Nani/Valencia are both RM's traditionally). Kagawa will pull the strings behind those 3.
The rooney/RvP combo won't offer genuine width on the left, but Paddy definitely will.
That's the best way, imo, and it's still quite balanced.
It's also how we've accomodated Welbeck (who goes central and left when he comes on as a 'left winger' and doesn't do any crosses; again Paddy provided the width very well vs Everton).
Paddy's quite a key player to our 4213. However, someone'll have to alternate covering the defensive duties of the LW, because otherwise paddy will get 2v1'd on the left.
Otherwise, we've got a 3 man midfield to compete against most midfielders
plus an attacking quartet that can rival any other in the world in that formation.
Again, if you saw Welbeck play vs Everton, and the final half hour, the "LW" didn't offer width. Paddy did for us on that side. But there was plenty of interchanging; read the article on zonal marking if you wanna get into the nitty gritty and see what that smart alec thinks our Sir Alex is doing.
http://www.zonalmarking.net/2012/08/21/ferguson-showcases-a-4-2-1-3-against-everton/
There's another article about the match, but that's the one more focussed on us and our formation in that match.
If they can pull it off then great personally though I don't think either are particularly effective from wide areas. Rooney has never really been productive in an attacking sense from the left and although RVP is probably better suited to it, he is undoubtedly better in a central role.
I agree that we'll try it out with a flowing front 4 and I hope it works, but I just have feeling it won't be as free flowing as we'd like and that having a central striker such as RVP or Rooney, with Nani, Kagawa and Valencia behind might just work better.
Wish our fans would show some more respect and stop making idiotic statements like this....twatish comment. It really is.
It's also kind of true, it's the part of his game he needs to work on the most.
Sugar-coating everything about every player is something RAWK would do.
It's a fundamental and chronic factor in a reason why Welbeck shouldn't be starting many games, for me. He's a striker, but he doesn't seem to be able to stick it in the back of the net.
I must've seen him through on goal at least 10, nay 15 times, and not stick it in once. When he's 1v1, I'm not sure if i even remember him converting one of those 10-15 attempts. That's running from an angle of 30 degrees or less; i.e. something that someone like Nani, Rooney, or RvP convert around 80% or more of the time.
Whereas with Welbeck, it's around 10 or 20% or less from that position.
Finishing seems to be an exception to the rule with him.
Yes, he scored that brilliant goal just outside the box, as well as the brilliant turn in the FA cup vs City, but again, he gets chances and he misses them.
What do you want me to say? His finishings average? Because it's not. Maybe average for an outfield player, but there's plenty of CM's and pretty much every first choice striker in the league (and plenty of second choice strikers too) better at finishing than he is. Dare i say it, even Suarez.
It may be twattish, but it's true.
I'm not the only one frustrated by his ability to link up reasonably well; very well for his age, but if you can't stick it into the net (he doesn't give many assists either despite his decent linking up) then you should be practising night and day till you're able to stick it in.
He's got plenty of time and had plenty of chances, but his finishing's not noticeably improving, either.
edit: Plenty of the kop are now saying that Suarez should go wide and allow someone else to try knock in the multitude of chances they apparently make (as well as the chances that Suarez will no doubt be able to lay off to that legendary striker). But the fact is, Suarez and Welbeck are currently poor finishers of the ball. Easily the worst in the league as strikers go at finishing. Now, Welbeck's far younger, but he's got to fix it, and my statement, at the moment, is absolutely bang on.
Ive not seen many complete strikers at 21. The fact he's learning his trade at the top level warrrants a lot more plaudits imo.
Its idiotic the stick he gets in this regard. His all round play, attitude and work rate scream Manchester United player. He just signed a new contract with us. Some people are never happy. RVN played for Den Bosch at the same age and score about 5 goals a season. Get a fecking grip............21 years of age. say it slowly to yourself
Its idiotic the stick he gets in this regard. His all round play, attitude and work rate scream Manchester United player. He just signed a new contract with us. Some people are never happy. RVN played for Den Bosch at the same age and score about 5 goals a season. Get a fecking grip............21 years of age. say it slowly to yourself
To say your own original statement is "absolutely bang on" is quite funny. Self praise is no praise. The fact that you've actually kept digging is funnier.
Its actually fking embarrassing, as well as being absolute horseshit. Welbeck is now the worst finisher in the league. Ok so chief, what exactly are you smoking ?
edit....actually Ive decided you're on a wind up. To say Welbeck is easily the worst finisher in the league!!!! looper
even Scholesy didnt say shit like that!
Its actually fking embarrassing, as well as being absolute horseshit. Welbeck is now the worst finisher in the league. Ok so chief, what exactly are you smoking ?
edit....actually Ive decided you're on a wind up. To say Welbeck is easily the worst finisher in the league!!!!
loopereven Scholesy didnt say shit like that!
Kagawa's all but 18 months older than him, and operates as a CAM, VERY well. One of our best players, no doubt. We'll obviously see some imperfections with Kagawa too, but Welbeck's, for me, is not all that which everyone makes him out to be. A good attitude and work rate are all fine and dandy, but even I could provide that (given a footballers physique, mind you!).
Right now, he's competing against Rooney and RvP. He's clearly not offering us too much as a left winger. Little goal threat, not a great crosser / provider of width, nor is he such an exceptional player like Rooney, that we should tweak our system for him. Obviously, we blood him, and give him lots of sub appearances, but IMO, he's competing with RVP AND ROONEY and should only displace them as starts on his own merits, with a few starts given in easier fixtures / rotation as is SAF's wont. But people love putting him in their XI's, because they want to see a local player do well.
That's fine, but I'm not a local. I'm a 33 hour flight away. I want to see my team do well, and it's great when a player is good enough to be 'free' for the club, and be a good player, but that doesn't mean I want to see a striker playing regularly if he can't finish, and there are 2 other strikers who are leagues ahead of him.
Rooney's 26, and RvP just turned 29. They're going to be here for a while, and are on 200 k per week. They are our 2 best players and should be starting the vast majority of our competitive games, and Shinji is again, probably our 3rd best (attacking) player now, and seems to have instigated a 3 man midfield with him at the tip; again meaning we have to tweak our system. He's 18 months older than welbeck and earns his starts on his merit.
SAF rightly said we've to play lads like Evans, Welbeck and co. through their younger patches, suffer their mistakes, whereas City buy the 24-27 year old players in their peaks, and can throw them when they can't compete enough; not having to suffer through their mistakes. But there's a balance, and with Welbeck's finishing being shite, he needs to practice and practice and get it right when he's given a chance to impress (He's had 1 start and 1 sub appearance already) to earn his stripes. He ought to be seen in the same light as everyone else by the club imo.
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