Shinji Kagawa

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So let me get this straight, people think teams would waltz through Ando and Cleverley in midfield, but when one is replaced by Scholes or Giggs, teams ACTUALLY DO waltz through the midfield?

Interesting take on bollox!

I have no idea why posters have such little trust in Anderson and Cleverley as a partnership.
 
How is Kagawa out of position? He's playing AM/off the striker.

He isn't playing as a winger is that's what you think, that formation doesn't need to use any. The same way Oscar or Mata aren't wingers now, Aguero or Tevez weren't last year. I just happened to write him first so he's positioned on the right. If you watch these teams the idea is constant rotation between the three behind the forward, there isn't a left and right winger.

I understand, but Rooney and van Persie aren't especially good players for that. Rooney's best position is behind the striker, but if he is interchanging he will eventually end up on wing sometimes, where he isn't that good, especially on the right wings, and same can be said about van Persie.

Hazard and Mata are pretty much identical players on every positon, hazard played often on the right, left and through the middle, it's same for oscar too.

Tevez, Aguero played behind the striker, the same position where Rooney plays for us in last two years, but Silva and Nasri were still providing them width, eventough they liked to cut inside, but their primary positions were still on the wings, silva on the right, Nasri on the left. And still, city's good defending was more down to them having possesion, if you understand what I'm trying to say. They had around 70% of possesion in almost every game in premiership.
 
I understand, but Rooney and van Persie aren't especially good players for that. Rooney's best position is behind the striker, but if he is interchanging he will eventually end up on wing sometimes, where he isn't that good, especially on the right wings, and same can be said about van Persie.

Hazard and Mata are pretty much identical players on every positon, hazard played often on the right, left and through the middle, it's same for oscar too.

Tevez, Aguero played behind the striker, the same position where Rooney plays for us in last two years, but Silva and Nasri were still providing them width, eventough they liked to cut inside, but their primary positions were still on the wings, silva on the right, Nasri on the left. And still, city's good defending was more down to them having possesion, if you understand what I'm trying to say. They had around 70% of possesion in almost every game in premiership.

They provide feck all width. The only width is from the fullbacks. They both drift inside, nearer to goal, then use the FB or go through the middle.
If you think the suggestion is that the outside of three are on the wing, you've misunderstood.
 
That's ok then, one player out of his positon less, that leaves us just on RvP.

One player out of position in 11, not too shabby. And RVP has played a lot at wide forward.

fwiw, it's not my ideal team/formation, but right now something similar would be worth trying until our wingers remember how to play football again.
 
One player out of position in 11, not too shabby. And RVP has played a lot at wide forward.

fwiw, it's not my ideal team/formation, but right now something similar would be worth trying until our wingers remember how to play football again.

Okay, that makes lot more sense then that formation you first wrote.
 
The best we've looked a season is when there's actually movement between the front four players and they aren't all sticking to their positions. Rvp and Rooney might not be at their best in wider areas but they're more than capable of moving into those areas for the sake of the attack. Personally I think a front four of kagawa Rooney rvp and nani would be a perfect blend of wide threat and central threat. You could get plenty of interchange in that. Default position for me would be Rooney as an a/m and nani and kagawa flanking rvp. Playing in a 433 would hopefully alleviate some of the defensive burden of kagawa who isn't lazy but doesn't seems to do as well when he needs to hold a fixed defensive position as playing in a 442 requires.
 
I feel for Theon. Everything he's saying makes sense but fear of the unknown causes folk to simply dismiss it. We're at a point now where we might as well try it. Don't think we know what works best for the team right now.
 
They played like that all the time ffs.

Or some equal variant of it. Take out Dzeko and stick in Tevez, or Balotelli out and put in Nasri.

Literally the first two line ups I looked at are Napoli and Bayern in the CL, they played

------Yaya---Barry----
--Silva--Aguero--Nasri
--------Dzeko------

I'd say Rooney is better than any of their three defensively, Kagawa is no different to Silva or Nasri and Van Persie and Aguero are both strikers.

Overall I think Kagawa, Rooney and Van Persie are better. Even if not it's a marginal difference at the most.

Silva is better than Kagawa, Yaya makes that formation work for them. We don't have that type of player in our team.
 
Looking over the comments from the previous page, I think we've forgotten what it's like to have an interchanging front four.
 
I feel for Theon. Everything he's saying makes sense but fear of the unknown causes folk to simply dismiss it. We're at a point now where we might as well try it. Don't think we know what works best for the team right now.

It's not even 'unknown' though, especially since he had the sense to replace either Cleverley or Anderson with Carrick, to give us a semblance of defensive stability in there.
 
I have no idea why posters have such little trust in Anderson and Cleverley as a partnership.

Anderson and Cleverly last year played as the central duo when we scored more goals that ever in five PL games and looked like we did when Ronaldo played for us.

I think playing wingers like Nani and Young also contributed to that, our all round game was the best I have seen the last 3 or 4 years.
 
Silva is better than Kagawa, Yaya makes that formation work for them. We don't have that type of player in our team.

Seriously, you've just pulled this out your arse.

Why is Silva being better than Kagawa important? It means nothing at all, I've got no idea what you're on about here. As a unit our three is probably better than theirs in virtually every aspect. The fact they have one individual who is better than one of ours has no relevance.

Reading it back, you might have misinterpreted my point when I said Kagawa is as good as Silva defensively? If you thought I was saying he is overall as good a player, then you've misunderstood and if you read the thread we were talking about being solid defensively and which set of three AM's would offer more.

The Toure comment is ridiculous though, he doesn't make the formation work in the slightest. What 'type of player' are you talking about, because Toure has to curtail so much of his game when he plays that role and is a more limited player. If you watched the last season it was only when he brought off a forward and moved to a three man midfield that Mancini utilised Toure in a natural way. For most of the season he was required to play a rigid game, limiting his runs forward and sitting with Barry.

The fact that he occasionally didn't do so actually got them into trouble. When he bursts forward it just leaves Barry completely isolated. Basically, he doesn't make the formation work, plenty of centre mids could play that role. Look at Ramires and Mikel, I'd say the former suits that formation more than Toure.

IMO one of the main reasons Mancini has moved to three at the back is precisely because Toure isn't suited to a 4-2-3-1. With the extra cover given by the third centre back he can get forward without it being a liability.

So yeah, I think you've just made that up.
 
It's not even 'unknown' though, especially since he had the sense to replace either Cleverley or Anderson with Carrick, to give us a semblance of defensive stability in there.

Hm possibly. I feel we dont know what's our best lineup yet or we just haven't used it.
 
I understand, but Rooney and van Persie aren't especially good players for that. Rooney's best position is behind the striker, but if he is interchanging he will eventually end up on wing sometimes, where he isn't that good, especially on the right wings, and same can be said about van Persie.

Hazard and Mata are pretty much identical players on every positon, hazard played often on the right, left and through the middle, it's same for oscar too.

Tevez, Aguero played behind the striker, the same position where Rooney plays for us in last two years, but Silva and Nasri were still providing them width, eventough they liked to cut inside, but their primary positions were still on the wings, silva on the right, Nasri on the left.

Nah I'm not being funny man but verminator is right in this post, you've misunderstood.

They provide feck all width. The only width is from the fullbacks. They both drift inside, nearer to goal, then use the FB or go through the middle.
If you think the suggestion is that the outside of three are on the wing, you've misunderstood.

Have a look at the average positions for Chelsea in their last three league games with Mata/Hazard/Oscar - they provide feck all width and focus on the central areas. Click player positions midway down.

http://www.whoscored.com/Matches/61...er-League-2012-2013-Chelsea-Manchester-United
http://www.whoscored.com/Matches/61...nd-Premier-League-2012-2013-Tottenham-Chelsea
http://www.whoscored.com/Matches/61...nd-Premier-League-2012-2013-Chelsea-Liverpool

You only need to watch them to see they aren't wingers. All of them play centrally occasionally running the channels, but the vast majority of width is provided by the fullbacks.

Rooney and Kagawa would be perfectly suited, the link up play would be great and it gives them freedom to roam in their best position behind the striker. The only question as far as I can see is whether Van Persie can play there instead of his usual number 9 role.

Obviously the other issue is if the fullbacks can stretch the pitch enough in attack but in Rafael and Evra I wouldn't pick any other fullbacks in the league. The reason I switched Carrick in for one of Clev/Ando is that you need someone to sit.
 
I think what Mata/Hazard/Oscar/Silva/Nasri are able to do which few of our players are able to do bar probably Nani and Kagawa is pick the ball up in a wider area and then drive inside. Against us it caused all sorts of problems. Our other wingers either don't come inside often, or in valencia's case at all, or simply aren;t particularly good dribblers off the ball, i.e Rooney doesn't really carry the ball well or even really attempt it. This reduces our attacking play, it's not all bad as we generally capitalise on wider areas better as although say Chelsea may use the fullbacks to give width they can't provide the same quality that someone like Valencia can. That's why though I think Nani/Kagawa can be really important as they can give us the option of being able to create from a wide area and give that width but also are capable of driving inside.
 
@Theon..problem is that mata/oscar/hazard are very good running with the ball whereas I think only nani/kagawa out of our attackers are good dribblers and still I would give chelsea the edge in this area. I think SAF wants to move towards this system(shown by his search for a dribbling winger over the past few seasons) but until he has the right personal doubt he would make the move so maybe give it a season with scholes retiring and nani's contract sorted.

Also to those suggesting a diamond,I think SAF is wary of playing carrick/anderson and cleverley together as that way we wont be able to rotate our midfielders as well. After these three, we are basically left with two oldies in giggs and scholes and fletcher. So cant use all three together and burn them out.
 
@Theon..problem is that mata/oscar/hazard are very good running with the ball whereas I think only nani/kagawa out of our attackers are good dribblers and still I would give chelsea the edge in this area. I think SAF wants to move towards this system(shown by his search for a dribbling winger over the past few seasons) but until he has the right personal doubt he would make the move so maybe give it a season with scholes retiring and nani's contract sorted.

Also to those suggesting a diamond,I think SAF is wary of playing carrick/anderson and cleverley together as that way we wont be able to rotate our midfielders as well. After these three, we are basically left with two oldies in giggs and scholes and fletcher. So cant use all three together and burn them out.

Very good point
 
@Theon..problem is that mata/oscar/hazard are very good running with the ball whereas I think only nani/kagawa out of our attackers are good dribblers and still I would give chelsea the edge in this area. I think SAF wants to move towards this system(shown by his search for a dribbling winger over the past few seasons) but until he has the right personal doubt he would make the move so maybe give it a season with scholes retiring and nani's contract sorted.

Yeah maybe but I don't think that's required to make the formation work, dribbling can be effective no question but it's not as if it's a necessity.

Hazard is the only one who is a genuine dribbler IMO, the other two are primarily ball players. If you look at Mata his best work off the striker is all about playing through balls and dictating the game.
 
Yeah maybe but I don't think that's required to make the formation work, dribbling can be effective no question but it's not as if it's a necessity.

Hazard is the only one who is a genuine dribbler IMO, the other two are primarily ball players. If you look at Mata his best work off the striker is all about playing through balls and dictating the game.

Hazard might be the natural dribbler but the other two are just as comfortable taking players on, it might not be their strongest suite but its something they can do when needed. A couple of times when we have played without wingers we have struggled as there is no width. The difference anderson makes to our team illustrates this point as he is a dribbler whereas the rest of our team are passers if that makes sense.

With our wingers in horrible form, I would prefer SAF to try that when kagawa comes back though.
 
Yeah, the problem with our diamond is that it's pretty much completely reliant on passing, say it was Carrick, Ando, Clev, Rooney, RVP and Hernandez, who is realistically gonna be a real threat beating their man? Maybe ando if the space is there and RVP. The others are good on the ball but they don't really get past players and it's certainly not an aspect of thier game. But if you look at Barca even they are heavily reliant on someone like Messi who can glide past players with the ball just to open some space, or Iniesta. Chelsea as mentioned have Mata, hazard and oscar, City have Silva and Nasri and arguably Toure. I don't think in a diamond like that we really have a blend of possession players and skill on the ball, can certainly do the job but I don't think it's ideal. I suppose Kagawa could provide that at the tip of the diamond at the expense of Hernandez but then we'd still need to alter how we use the diamond as Kagawa if he did play as the tip would not offer the same protection Rooney does there.
 
I don't know how he could implemented in the first 11 (for me he still has to earn his place like Hernandez has showed for instance). I hope the attacking structure remains the same (RVP up to with another striker and Rooney behind them). If Kagawa has to start games, I hope it's thanks to his performances and that he'll give a real headache SAF and not just enter the first 11 by default
 
@Theon..problem is that mata/oscar/hazard are very good running with the ball whereas I think only nani/kagawa out of our attackers are good dribblers and still I would give chelsea the edge in this area. I think SAF wants to move towards this system(shown by his search for a dribbling winger over the past few seasons) but until he has the right personal doubt he would make the move so maybe give it a season with scholes retiring and nani's contract sorted.

Also to those suggesting a diamond,I think SAF is wary of playing carrick/anderson and cleverley together as that way we wont be able to rotate our midfielders as well. After these three, we are basically left with two oldies in giggs and scholes and fletcher. So cant use all three together and burn them out.

If you're talking about the present moment, then yes. But once everyone is fit, I don't see why that would be a problem. Some of the players he could rotate the said players with include Jones, Fletcher, Kagawa, Rooney, Powell.
 
What we need to do is start playing a 3-CB Wingback formation.



-----------------De Gea
------Ferdinand - Smalling - Vidic
Rafael ------------------------------- Evra
---------Cleverley ------- Anderson
--------------------Kagawa
-------------RVP ------------Rooney


That allows us to fit everyone in. The presence of the 3rd CB provides cover for the CMs meaning the back line is not left quite as exposed. It also provides cover for when one of the WBs wants to bomb forwards, and failing that allows for one CB (Smalling) to carry the ball forward when needed.

Width is provided by the WBs, and it then allows us to fit all of Rooney, RVP and Kagawa in attack comfortably.

The potential problem of that formation is that against a good team that plays with both a winger and an attacking minded FB, they can overload you on one side, in which case the CMs and CBs may get dragged out of position to defend the wide areas, but with the amount of possession etc we would have, I don't see that as a major problem.
 
What we need to do is start playing a 3-CB Wingback formation.



-----------------De Gea
------Ferdinand - Smalling - Vidic
Rafael ------------------------------- Evra
---------Cleverley ------- Anderson
--------------------Kagawa
-------------RVP ------------Rooney


That allows us to fit everyone in. The presence of the 3rd CB provides cover for the CMs meaning the back line is not left quite as exposed. It also provides cover for when one of the WBs wants to bomb forwards, and failing that allows for one CB (Smalling) to carry the ball forward when needed.

Width is provided by the WBs, and it then allows us to fit all of Rooney, RVP and Kagawa in attack comfortably.

The potential problem of that formation is that against a good team that plays with both a winger and an attacking minded FB, they can overload you on one side, in which case the CMs and CBs may get dragged out of position to defend the wide areas, but with the amount of possession etc we would have, I don't see that as a major problem.

The issue is not just width but rather loading the wide areas to create more crossing oppurtunites. I am sure our players are drilled to do that and it will take a while to adapt to a whole new playing style. I think we will gradually stop using 4 wide players and not abruptly.

We didn't have four dedicated wide players against Spurs(giggs and Kagawa both played more centrally) and we lost the game, whereas we did really well against Newcastle and Braga without four truly wide players.

Not to mention Anderson or Carrick sitting bit deep is better than Smalling or Ferdinand carrying the ball. If Jones could develop into a player with adequate offensive and defensive nous we could play him as a hybrid defender/midfielder.
 
I don't like playing 3 in the back, never have and I doubt I ever will.

I would love to see a 4-3-3 formation though, I think that might even suit us more than the diamond or the 4-4-1-1/4-2-2 (whichever you want to call it).

In my honest opinion this would be our best XI:

573427_Manchester_United.jpg


Some of you may not agree, but I think this could work out well.
The reason I chose Nani over Valencia is his "fluidity" in attack, or should I say his ability to alter positions with other forwards and make it work, it would make us a bit more unpredictable and harder to mark when going forward.
Ofcourse in no way is Valencia a bad choice, just had to pick one and I believe if everything was clicking Nani would be a better fit in this type of formation than Valencia.
He can always be brought off the bench in this case, and it's not like we'd play this every game, plus don't forget about rotation, so yeah....

You should also notice I "placed" Nani wider out wide than Kagawa is out left. The reason is that while the idea of Kagawa and Rooney both being able to switch their positions might be a great thing to see, neither of those provide any real width. With that being said, it's not as if Nani's as out and out a winger as Valencia, but he's more than capable of providing real width with the added bonus of always being capable of going past a man and/or driving inside.

RvP is obviously also capable of playing behind a striker and out wide (that's not to say he excels in a wide role, but just like Rooney is capable of moving there for the sake of the attack as a whole), and that leaves us with 4 top class players up front all being able to play in eachother's positions, with the added bonus of having someone like Cleverley (or Anderson if you prefer) in midfield that has a lot of drive in his game, and is a good quick 1-2 touch passer that is actualy able to open up some space on his own, and you've got a hell of a team to defend against.
 
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